RamRunner Refresh

[Bebop]

...personally I would actually recommend going with the RV housing and thermostat - IMPO it's the very best big block Mopar water pump setup available - the housing and the bypass port design is the real magic, and I also think the RV thermostat is capable of flowing a lot more coolant than the car version.

I don't get it... If you want to flow more, just remove the thermostat.

 

[rattle_snake]

This is a good example where a lower 165* t-stat has no benefit because it is open all the time except cold start.

Do both fans draw 40A each, so total 80 A? Is the alternator and wiring up to that task (voltage at fans is?)?
What relays?

Is the t-stat really the restriction in the cooling system when it is open? Or the little holes in the head gaskets (assuming they are oriented correctly, if BBM are like that)?

 

[Mad Max]

My point is it sounds like he has plenty of cool coolant at the rad outlet, but it doesn't seem to be able to get into/out of the engine well enough - sounds like the water is 'simmering' in the block/heads too long, and getting way too hot. Need a stat to regulate the engine temp regardless, and it sounds like there is plenty of cool coolant ready to get in.

All I know is while the 'car' pump housing (like the ones from 440 Source) are good, they are no where near as good as the RV setups for 'max cooling'. I'll put it this way - if I were to build another big block Mopar I would absolutely use a good ole RV setup - hands down every time. From a 'cooling' perspective none of the other 'race' housings can compete - they may be lighter (aluminum, etc), but they do not have the capability to cool nearly as well.

I think you have a 'mismatch' somewhere that is affecting flow - I think the water is help up in the block too long, which leads to thermostat/housing.

Here's a link to the thread on my 440 saga - might glean some ideas - '02 Dakota QC 4x4 SAS (...made a command decision...)

 

[Bebop]

My point is it sounds like he has plenty of cool coolant at the rad outlet, but it doesn't seem to be able to get into/out of the engine well enough - sounds like the water is 'simmering' in the block/heads too long, and getting way too hot. Need a stat to regulate the engine temp regardless, and it sounds like there is plenty of cool coolant ready to get in.

All I know is while the 'car' pump housing (like the ones from 440 Source) are good, they are no where near as good as the RV setups for 'max cooling'. I'll put it this way - if I were to build another big block Mopar I would absolutely use a good ole RV setup - hands down every time. From a 'cooling' perspective none of the other 'race' housings can compete - they may be lighter (aluminum, etc), but they do not have the capability to cool nearly as well.

I think you have a 'mismatch' somewhere that is affecting flow - I think the water is help up in the block too long, which leads to thermostat/housing.

Do you understand that you're preaching the opposite of:

still need to determine your radiator inlet/outlet temps before pulling triggers on anything. Another thought I had was, with your high-flow pump and 165* stat it is possible you're flowing coolant through the rad too fast - not enough time in the rad to pull out the heat. Just a possibility, but gotta git those rad temps - that'll tell all.

Faster flow is better.
And now you got the rad temps it doesn't tell much at all.

 

[Mad Max]

too fast or too slow are both possibilities. I'm just offering thoughts - looking forward to reading about the actual cure.

 

[06h3]

In for badass big bitch rigs!

If your dedicated to e fans I would go with a late model oem e fan. They push a lot more air than the aftermarket fans. I know multiple people who had the big bad aftermarket fans and had overheating issues and then went to a late model CTS V fan and his cooling issues are fixed. The OEMs can push the air it seems

 

[75RamRunner]

Here's my thoughts on the matters to date, the trail well tell a better story i think

1. BBM have dog shit cooling capacities in relation to the other 2 brands, ive had 8 BBM in some capacity in all different manners of rigs from drag cars to off-road to cruisers, they all ran warmer than i like but were maintainable. I believe its a nature of the beast kind of deal here. all of my aluminum headed engines ran cooler than their iron headed versions.

2. This combo was 100% under aired, whether it has enough now, we will see

3. I think it needs to be overdriven a bit, the idle up test would confirm this meaning its "low flowing" even with the high volume pump and bigger water pump housing than stock. Theres a brand i found today that claims increased flow from 0-3000rpms which is where i need it, looks like more fins. I think this combined with a 5" pulley instead of a 6 13/16" would do the trick.

4. No room for clutch fan, also doesn't work awesome crawling because of low RPMs in the trucks current configuration, works fine for stock rigs powerplants with factory cooling systems. Ive had jeeps and other fullsizes that can idle through shit all day. I'm asking a little more of this rig....

5. Both fans draw 40A., alternator is a 215A or 160A unit so i think i'm fine there. All heavy gauge wiring. Done the smokey dash thing, didnt want to do it again.

 

[rattle_snake]

On #5, I suggest you measure the voltage the fans are actually getting at idle. The alternator isn't going to put out it's rating at idle. You may be surprised how low fan voltage actually it is. The fan CFM can be significantly reduced from the rating. This can be mitigated with a smaller pulley for the huge load you have added. or increase idle a bit for alt and water pump. You can find the knee of the alternator current curve and set it just above that.

80 Amps is no joke. Once wiring is heat soaked you loose more voltage at fan. even one tenth of an ohm of resistance will drop 8 volts. This is why 12V is a terrible choice for anything high power.

Good luck.

 

[Bebop]

even one tenth of an ohm of resistance will drop 8 volts

I'm not following you. Could you explain?

80 Amps is no joke.

It's 20amp per fan, 40 amp total.

 

[75RamRunner]

It's 20amp per fan, 40 amp total.

Theyre a lot more than 20, they popped a 30 amp fuse i had inline of the relay. The 40 amp fuses are holding fine. Summit reviews say it pulls close to 40/ea as well.

 

[rattle_snake]

I'm not following you. Could you explain?


It's 20amp per fan, 40 amp total.

Assuming '75 meant two fuses, one for each fan, 40A each, 80A total

ohms law, V=IR = 80A * 0.1 Ohm = 8 Volts.

Also the nature of the inductive load (3-ph motor coils) will arc the relay contacts due to back EMF from field collapse when it opens at that level of energy. A 30/40A Bosch style relay won't last.

There are 50A+ relays in the same package type

https://www.newark.com/c/switches-relays/relays/automotive-relays?coil-voltage=12vdc&contact-current=50a

The blade/ATC fuses go up to 40A, but a this current a larger type should be used to minimize contact resistance. I would use a single 100A auto reset circuit breaker or mega fuse for both fans. The fuse is to protect the battery, it doesn't care how many fans. #8 copper wire with professional level crimps (no CCA)

If the fans came with a relay/fuse harness, it was designed to be as cheap as possible, not best performance.

 

[McBastard79]

Sweet rig man. In for updates and hopefully you get the overheating issue resolved.

 

[75RamRunner]

Assuming '75 meant two fuses, one for each fan, 40A each, 80A total

ohms law, V=IR = 80A * 0.1 Ohm = 8 Volts.

Also the nature of the inductive load (3-ph motor coils) will arc the relay contacts due to back EMF from field collapse when it opens at that level of energy. A 30/40A Bosch style relay won't last.

There are 50A+ relays in the same package type

https://www.newark.com/c/switches-relays/relays/automotive-relays?coil-voltage=12vdc&contact-current=50a

The blade/ATC fuses go up to 40A, but a this current a larger type should be used to minimize contact resistance. I would use a single 100A auto reset circuit breaker or mega fuse for both fans. The fuse is to protect the battery, it doesn't care how many fans. #8 copper wire with professional level crimps (no CCA)

If the fans came with a relay/fuse harness, it was designed to be as cheap as possible, not best performance.

Your correct on the two fuses, they are currently blade types, i was considering a mega fuse but the resettable is a great idea. All power currently goes Battery - Disconnect - Terminal Strip with all large gauge/high amp draws on the disconnect terminal and all lower amp draws pulling from the 100a terminal strip. Fan relays direct to the battery disconnect terminal, did not use any manufacture provided relay package made my own. Doesn't mean its right or not cheap

Sweet rig man. In for updates and hopefully you get the overheating issue resolved.

Cruised it around the property yesterday after loading all the shit in it and the fans pulled it down enough to turn off, ambient was around 92 so we might be headed in the right direction.

 

[Bebop]

Theyre a lot more than 20, they popped a 30 amp fuse i had inline of the relay. The 40 amp fuses are holding fine. Summit reviews say it pulls close to 40/ea as well.

This is not how amperage on a brushed fan works.
They are pulling 22amp per fan per the spec sheet.
And Summit doesn't say anything.

I measured that same model at 79amp in peak during inrush.

Normal brushed motor behavior.

Not that you need advice, but I literally make money wiring racecars.

Assuming '75 meant two fuses, one for each fan, 40A each, 80A total

ohms law, V=IR = 80A * 0.1 Ohm = 8 Volts.

Again, these fans don't pull 80 amps.

I do agree with the resettable circuit breaker though.

 

[75RamRunner]

This is not how amperage on a brushed fan works.
They are pulling 22amp per fan per the spec sheet.
And Summit doesn't say anything.

I measured that same model at 79amp in peak during inrush.

Normal brushed motor behavior.

Not that you need advice, but I literally make money wiring racecars.

Fuck i need all the advice I can get, I'm a trial by fire kind of learner (literally at times ) anything to shorten the learning curve is welcome info.

You would have an aneurism if you saw under my dash right now. Its going on 5 years of trail fixes and needs to be completely redone, saving that for when i get the new powerplant in and have to redo the EFI. Going to go new PDM, redo the gauge layout, etc

 

[Bebop]

Fuck i need all the advice I can get, I'm a trial by fire kind of learner (literally at times ) anything to shorten the learning curve is welcome info.

I've done (and still do) a lot of trial by fire. But wiring a fan is fairly straightforward at this point.
Klixon circuit breaker, a nice relay (TE / Bosch / Hella) and send it.

PDMs are nice, but you'll probably still have to wire high amp stuff like those fans through an old school relay as most PDMs won't support the amp load of an outfitted offroad vehicle. Or you end up with 2 PDMs / a single very high $ unit.
That another reason why brushless fans are vastly superior. The lack of inrush is amazing for component sizing.

 

[75RamRunner]

Well it was a successful but mundane trip.

The Ramcharger did great and stayed cool, never got over 212 on the trail and that temp was from Wentworth up to walk, so nearly all uphill with a decent load in 1st or 2nd the whole time.

Didn't get to any of the obstacles i was hoping to film. One rig in our group lost 2-4th and R in his 4L80 and one rig decided to take a nap, after pulling him over we found the in tank pump decided it had enough. Ripped that out, pulled the lines off his frame filter and wired in a in-line pump using the factor harness points. Unfortunately by the time that was all done we were barely past walker from loon, we decided it wasn't in the best interest of the other rigs to keep going in.

The ass end sags way too much when its loaded, like 3" and im not very tall to begin with so new springs are in the mix.

Pics i did get

Jeep on the left was the one that lost its trans, jeep on his tire is the the one that flopped

Little man slept from the bottom of the slabs to the bridge, and i didn't take any easy lines. Just enough rumble to keep the beast at bay

 

[75RamRunner]

Haven't done fuck-all with the truck since getting back from the Con. Taking it to Shock Jesus tomorrow to re-valve the rear a little stiffer and add some spring rate. Last time Phil touched it it had the 3 speed and a tired RV engine. The 8 speed likes to party a little more so the speed got elevated in the fast stuff.

I did get my paddle shifters unboxed and started looking at the how of it. I have to order a new 6 bolt wheel and quick release as the board and guts are in the center. After I get the truck back from Phil I might stop off at Fordyce on the way down the hill

 

[ridered3]

Haven't done fuck-all with the truck since getting back from the Con. Taking it to Shock Jesus tomorrow to re-valve the rear a little stiffer and add some spring rate. Last time Phil touched it it had the 3 speed and a tired RV engine. The 8 speed likes to party a little more so the speed got elevated in the fast stuff.

I did get my paddle shifters unboxed and started looking at the how of it. I have to order a new 6 bolt wheel and quick release as the board and guts are in the center. After I get the truck back from Phil I might stop off at Fordyce on the way down the hill

Hopefully he or you get some video of the shock tuning work so we can see a Ramcharger doing non-Ramcharger things

 

[75RamRunner]

Hopefully he or you get some video of the shock tuning work so we can see a Ramcharger doing non-Ramcharger things

He posted some last time, called it the "Clamcharger" said the woman loved it

 

[ridered3]

He posted some last time, called it the "Clamcharger" said the woman loved it

 

[75RamRunner]

Project Update:

Went and picked it up from Phil Saturday, the stance is so much better. We both discussed how it needed some more rear compression and the increased spring rate totally solved that as well. As always super happy with his work.

So i did the only logical thing and took the rig straight to Fordyce. I cannot tell you how much more enjoyable the trail experience is not smacking the rear tube work on every ledge I come off. I went with my buddy in his RzR and we were to the first water crossing in 50 minutes and to WH1 in about 2 hours. Needless to say we were moving. That is where some new fun occurred.

Phil had mentioned the trans went into limp mode on him, which is hasn't done to me since the swap. Well going up the crack on WH1 the trans just shifted itself into neutral, causing me to roll back down into the wall. Odd but no biggie, restart the rig as cycling power to the trans module normally solves itself, grab 1st and its fine, grab reverse, fine. Ok that weird lets hit it again, slowly crawl up the wall and right as the front tires are coming over, neutral. Well fuck. Back her down, decide its gotta be a fluid thing and its draining away from the pump, so go with the old throttle out approach and pop it over enough to level back out and its fine. I'm also noticing my brakes aren't awesome, not that they ever were.

We decide to loop back, as im cruising between the rocks through the forest the trans does it again. This time im on flat ground but im in 6th low. It did this once before where i dont think it liked the mph difference it expects to see in that high of a gear. Cycle power again, make it back to the water crossing and i notice my trans temp is 230s, it never used to go above 180. It is 102 ambient so not awesome but thats a big difference.

Made it back to trailers without too much drama, rzr snapped an axle coming up the rock garden from the first crossing, and i did start to smell clutch material coming out of the woods to the staging area, trans never went over 250 but still.


so all that block of text means is I'm going to do the electrical rewire before i wanted. I cant discount the trans issues to be inconsistent voltage problems, the MSD atomic FI is something im done fighting, and the under dash ratness from 7 years of trail fixes is a nightmare.

New Goals are

1. Gut the wiring
2. New Sniper 2 FI system, with their ignition components (through Scott thanks for the recommendation here)
3. New wiring, used existing painless fuse block, use sniper PDM, and clean up the firewall/switch panels
4. New calipers, pretty sure the BK hydroboost is not the issue, working with them now for caliper recommendations. This thing needs to learn stop before the new powerplant goes in.

 

[ridered3]

That’s great on suspension improvements but not so much on trans issues.

 

[75RamRunner]

No pictures because its boring work right now, but I have the trans harness completely separated, switch panel thinned and removed, and all the unneeded shit removed from the passenger side firewall. i currently have the disconnect under the dash on the firewall and its a bit of a pain in the ass.

going to switch to this mounted in the dash sorta like a normal key deal

PICO Wiring 5575PT Pico Battery Disconnect Switches | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Pico Battery Disconnect Switches with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Battery Disconnect Switches at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

I've had pretty bad luck with painless stuff in the past so going to this panel to handle some of the low load stuff as well as starter/ignition

QuickCar 50-864 QuickCar Ignition Control Panels | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - QuickCar Ignition Control Panels with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Electrical Switch Panels at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

And then i ordered this for the (2) cooling fans, (1) trans fan, and starter relay. Looked all nice and tidy, see if its decent when it shows up.

MSD Ignition 7566-4 MSD Relay Modules | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - MSD Relay Modules with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Relays at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

I also ordered the PDM with the sniper 2 kit. My hope is i may only need 1-2 more circuits outside of that and the current chassis harness. Mostly lights if memory serves me correct.

 

[rattle_snake]

going to switch to this mounted in the dash sorta like a normal key deal

Are you planning to replace the ignition switch with the disconnect, or just move it's location?

Don't want to disconnect battery when alternator is running, it will spike the voltage on the wiring system. Infrequent for safety requirement is one thing, but every start/stop is another. It can be mitigated with a clamp diode.

 

[75RamRunner]

Are you planning to replace the ignition switch with the disconnect, or just move it's location?

Don't want to disconnect battery when alternator is running, it will spike the voltage on the wiring system. Infrequent for safety requirement is one thing, but every start/stop is another. It can be mitigated with a clamp diode.

No there will be a separate ignition switch still, the disconnect is more for long term off/theft protection deal. Not any every start/stop.

 

[75RamRunner]

Got the dash plates off and redesigned in CAD, burning them out of some scrap 24g galvanized first to make sure i like the layout then ill cut them out of 10g aluminum. Have everything out i think that needed to come out, form here it should be all rewire now.

The pile of removed shit Most of this is redoing how circuits are controlled, harness circuits thtat were never used. still a lot of wire IMO.

Lets talk heat mitigation for a second, the big block pumps some heat out, exhaust runs under the floor, and the firewall/floorboards get pretty hot. Not noticeable in boots but definitely in sandals/flip flops. The floor is bedlined currently. The firewall is bare on the engine side.

What kind of insulation/heat deflection actually works. I don't want to header wrap. Water crossings are a normal thing, maybe an aluminum heat shield for the exhaust? Open to any ideas

 

[rattle_snake]

For something that will not absorb or hold water, rubber mats. Thick ones like for a horse trailer. Maybe something lighter for trans hump and non flat areas.

 

[Bebop]

Fuck the sniper.
This thing needs a HP, a real crank sensor and DIS.

 

[75RamRunner]

Fuck the sniper.
This thing needs a HP, a real crank sensor and DIS.

dude i fought going to a 6.4 for so long, especially when i went 8speed. It just made a lot of sense but i couldnt bring myself to abandon the big block. It just makes me smile. I know direct port would be better, im hoping Scott can tune the fuel map enough to make it happy. The rig straight parties when it wants to, if i can bridge the gap between the temperamental atomic that was on it and make it run good 90% of the time ill be overjoyed.

For something that will not absorb or hold water, rubber mats. Thick ones like for a horse trailer. Maybe something lighter for trans hump and non flat areas.

Stall mats is genius. Didn't even consider that. I have a ton of them lying around, ill give that a shot