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Long time between updates, i bought property and all my spare time as been going to getting access roads in and remodeling the house, but i did get this dropped off to have the exhaust finished and my guy did a killer job as always. 1 7/8 primaries in 2.5" out the sides, true dual exhaust no crossovers. Also got it back on the lift and slide the trans back to get the adapter out. One more machine clearance and i should be good to go...

iu75Z4M.jpg


QDjNEYB.jpg


H5uD6My.jpg
 
Not picture worthy but we finally got the adapter right! 27th time is the charm i guess:homer:

Got it all buttoned up and trans slid in and remounted, still have to put the TC bolts in and then reroute the trans lines as they're currently outside of frame rail and need to go inside for exhaust clearance. After that its just add fluids and see if it makes loud angry big block noises :flipoff2:

I still have the paddle shifters to wire but i need the win of the rig moving under its own power again before i jump into that one. Hopefully next update is with a video of the new exhaust :beer:
 
Like a dumbass i didnt measure the location of the new hydro boost to the pump and assumed the old line would be fine, well it was 5" short so no running videos yet. Had some electrical gremlins that i either left or forgot about so got those tied up and cranked her over for a few.

My timing light is also MIA so hoping to get to that after work today
 
Well she makes noise!

LFjUow7.mp4


The Good:
60psi of oil pressure at idle
Cam seems to be decently bigger than I thought
It made noise

The Not so Good:
Header bolts are leaking coolant, gonna pull them and thread sealer all of them. (i knew this was a likely issue but all my OG mopar heads are hit or miss on sealing so I risked it)
My retrofit brake light switch isn't going to work, need to plumb a pressure switch into the front brake line (trans using brake input to release shifter)
I "trail fixed" the fuel lines at the cell and need to make it right before i seal that up

All in all good night, i can see the light at the end of the tunnel
 
How familiar are you with the PCS controller software ?
Seeing your thread made me look into the 8 speed swap and they are badass.

But I'm weird so I want to do shit that's not in "normal" realm.
 
Bebop said:
How familiar are you with the PCS controller software ?
Seeing your thread made me look into the 8 speed swap and they are badass.

But I'm weird so I want to do shit that's not in "normal" realm.
Click to expand...

Depends on your definition of familiar. I went in a modified some parameters but its not a tuning software with how its currently set up.

The trans get tuned in the traditional sense through a MVP or similar tool like the modern cars do. I know the PCS can do a lot more with the 4l80s and such but it seems the ZF swaps are all using it for inputs only and then modifying protocol and shift points through the OBD2.




With all that said, the 8 speed kicks ass. Lower 1st than the 727, double OD, and always in the right powerband. Highly recommend.
 
Bebop said:
How familiar are you with the PCS controller software ?
Seeing your thread made me look into the 8 speed swap and they are badass.

But I'm weird so I want to do shit that's not in "normal" realm.
Click to expand...
Do it!

I get why they're not common, but I sure would like to see more people using these newer transmissions. Its almost like the early fuel injection days. If we can get passed the initial technological hurdle it could open up some interesting doors.
 
Ghetto Fab. said:
Do it!

I get why they're not common, but I sure would like to see more people using these newer transmissions. Its almost like the early fuel injection days. If we can get passed the initial technological hurdle it could open up some interesting doors.
Click to expand...

What pushed me to the 8spd is the current choices all have the same pitfalls 700r4s are a dime a dozen, can be built unbreakable, but have huge gear jumps. 4L80s have better splits but need a controller, the 5-6 speed Chryslers all are a nightmare electronically speaking. 47/48res are great but same problem at the other 4 speed, gear splits aren't awesome.

The modern 6 speed Chevy stuff is the same amount of work as the ZF 8 speed and the ZF is quickly becoming the LS of the transmission world. They're in BMW, Volvo, Rams, Jeeps, fiats, jags, etc. The cases are going to be plentiful real fast here. Especially with how many ram 1500s have been cranked out.


Swapping in a gen 3 hemi admittedly would have been a lot more plug and play. And might still happen one day. These damn BBM just seem to gravitate into my projects somehow.....:lmao:
 
75RamRunner said:
What pushed me to the 8spd is the current choices all have the same pitfalls 700r4s are a dime a dozen, can be built unbreakable, but have huge gear jumps. 4L80s have better splits but need a controller, the 5-6 speed Chryslers all are a nightmare electronically speaking. 47/48res are great but same problem at the other 4 speed, gear splits aren't awesome.
Click to expand...
Yes, better gear splits and a decent first gear, and a double OD so you can go even deeper on axle gearing. No longer having to deal with doublers in the drivetrain or massive 4-1 low range gear jumps. Its worlds easier to shift trans gears vs t-case gearing. Think about being able to do 35mph on a trail, then just tap shifting back down to 1st at 85-1 crawl ratio to crawl the most technical spots, the whole time never shifting the t-case out of low range.
 
75RamRunner said:
What pushed me to the 8spd is the current choices all have the same pitfalls 700r4s are a dime a dozen, can be built unbreakable, but have huge gear jumps. 4L80s have better splits but need a controller,
Click to expand...
None of these are true. But ok :P


75RamRunner said:
the 5-6 speed Chryslers all are a nightmare electronically speaking. 47/48res are great but same problem at the other 4 speed, gear splits aren't awesome.
Click to expand...
No idea of Cryco stuff. Mopar shit is for boomer purists that like to piss money away for shitty performance :flipoff2:

75RamRunner said:
The modern 6 speed Chevy stuff is the same amount of work as the ZF 8 speed
Click to expand...
Not true. 6L80 is plug and play with Holley or a factory PCM.

75RamRunner said:
and the ZF is quickly becoming the LS of the transmission world. They're in BMW, Volvo, Rams, Jeeps, fiats, jags, etc. The cases are going to be plentiful real fast here. Especially with how many ram 1500s have been cranked out.
Click to expand...
That I agree with and that's why I'm looking into it.




Ghetto Fab. said:
Yes, better gear splits and a decent first gear, and a double OD so you can go even deeper on axle gearing. No longer having to deal with doublers in the drivetrain or massive 4-1 low range gear jumps. Its worlds easier to shift trans gears vs t-case gearing. Think about being able to do 35mph on a trail, then just tap shifting back down to 1st at 85-1 crawl ratio to crawl the most technical spots, the whole time never shifting the t-case out of low range.
Click to expand...
Also agreed. Except I bet that we're about to see some blown up engines from that 2-1 Low shift at 15mph :grinpimp:
 
Bebop said:
None of these are true. But ok :P



No idea of Cryco stuff. Mopar shit is for boomer purists that like to piss money away for shitty performance :flipoff2:


Not true. 6L80 is plug and play with Holley or a factory PCM.


That I agree with and that's why I'm looking into it.





Also agreed. Except I bet that we're about to see some blown up engines from that 2-1 Low shift at 15mph :grinpimp:
Click to expand...

The mopar purist shit kills me, says the guy that refuses to let go old the boat anchor engine for a LS:flipoff2:, they really do just piss away money to be "correct"

the 6L80E is cool if your running a terminator that's already running the engine. That's a lot of wiring to put in to just control a trans. If you're not a crayon eater like myself and run a modern powerplant then yes its already built in. Holley would be wise to get their hands on the ZF software and add that to their supported list, they're already running the gen 3 hemi.


The PCS/ZF software wont let you down shift if the engine exceeds a give RPM when it grabs, nifty safety feature. It also wont upshift if the MPH requirement isn't met. Not sure if that's factory but that's how mine is set, I inputted max RPMs for all gears (redline) and minimum MPH for upshifts, then i have a second table for low range (trans has an output and input speed sensor so it knows when it the tcase goes into low)

Even a dummy like me was able to get it to do what i want.


Ghetto Fab. said:
Think about being able to do 35mph on a trail, then just tap shifting back down to 1st at 85-1 crawl ratio to crawl the most technical spots, the whole time never shifting the t-case out of low range.
Click to expand...

This is what really makes me grin, ill hit an obstacle in 1-2 and then jump up to 6-7 to cruise to the next obstacle. If you have the suspension you can significantly cut your trail ride times and get to camp faster or the fun obstacles quicker. I used to be able to run Fordyce from entry to committee in about 6-7 hours with a few adult beverage breaks, I can easily do it in 5.5-6 now, the 727 1-2 shift was basically all that was usable on the trail, 3 was too high even in low unless it was more of a fire road.


I will say the only glaring downside I've seen on the trail is if you kill the rig on an obstacle or roll too far in neutral the trans gets real unhappy. Starts blinking the shifter and making cool clicking noises. So try not roll :grinpimp:
 
75RamRunner said:
the 6L80E is cool if your running a terminator that's already running the engine. That's a lot of wiring to put in to just control a trans. If you're not a crayon eater like myself and run a modern powerplant then yes its already built in. Holley would be wise to get their hands on the ZF software and add that to their supported list, they're already running the gen 3 hemi.
Click to expand...
Took Holley 10 years for 6L control. Don't get your hopes up.

75RamRunner said:
The PCS/ZF software wont let you down shift if the engine exceeds a give RPM when it grabs, nifty safety feature. It also wont upshift if the MPH requirement isn't met. Not sure if that's factory but that's how mine is set, I inputted max RPMs for all gears (redline) and minimum MPH for upshifts, then i have a second table for low range (trans has an output and input speed sensor so it knows when it the tcase goes into low)

Even a dummy like me was able to get it to do what i want.
Click to expand...
What I want to do is a lot more complex than that, unfortunately.

75RamRunner said:
This is what really makes me grin, ill hit an obstacle in 1-2 and then jump up to 6-7 to cruise to the next obstacle. If you have the suspension you can significantly cut your trail ride times and get to camp faster or the fun obstacles quicker. I used to be able to run Fordyce from entry to committee in about 6-7 hours with a few adult beverage breaks, I can easily do it in 5.5-6 now, the 727 1-2 shift was basically all that was usable on the trail, 3 was too high even in low unless it was more of a fire road.
Click to expand...
I'm with you there

75RamRunner said:
I will say the only glaring downside I've seen on the trail is if you kill the rig on an obstacle or roll too far in neutral the trans gets real unhappy. Starts blinking the shifter and making cool clicking noises. So try not roll :grinpimp:
Click to expand...
Interesting.
Yet another thing that shouldn't matter if trans control was really standalone. I really think the external TCU is the way to go with these.
 
Bebop said:
Interesting.
Yet another thing that shouldn't matter if trans control was really standalone. I really think the external TCU is the way to go with these.
Click to expand...

I'm 99% sure this is a factory thing, with say a charger when the car is off you cant shift the T handle as its not a cable, there is an external lever and gets pulled by an emergency tab to release the trans into neutral. You also cant shut the car off in gear, itll fault itself.

So when the rig dies in gear, it cant shift, it see input and output speed still and get fussy.


At least that's how it works in my head.



RIG Update:

I got all the header bolts pulled out, thread sealed, and reinstalled sitting overnight to set-up before i add coolant, remounted the core support, rerouted the return fuel line the right way, and pulled the wires from the winch/lights back into the harness.

Items left to make American v8 noises on the street (more for me to checklist)

1. Install/Fab new brake switch mount and rewire
2. Bleed brakes
3. Bleed PSC/Hydro Lines
4. Hang Fenders
5. Mount Hood
6. Mount oil dipstick (probably just going to zip tie it back to the chassis like it was prior. Headers are occupying all the routing paths that would be feasible to permanent mount).
7. Fill Coolant


Wants to complete in this phase that may or may not happen

1. Mount and wire in Paddle Shifters
2. New Fuel Access Door
3. Beauty Rings around Exhaust exits
 
75RamRunner said:
I'm 99% sure this is a factory thing, with say a charger when the car is off you cant shift the T handle as its not a cable, there is an external lever and gets pulled by an emergency tab to release the trans into neutral. You also cant shut the car off in gear, itll fault itself.

So when the rig dies in gear, it cant shift, it see input and output speed still and get fussy.


At least that's how it works in my head
Click to expand...
You're probably right.
For what I'm trying to do, the factory TCU is not gonna cut it.

I need to go inside the trans and rewire it for an external TCU. Sound German and HTG confirmed that.

75RamRunner said:
RIG Update:

I got all the header bolts pulled out, thread sealed, and reinstalled sitting overnight to set-up before i add coolant, remounted the core support, rerouted the return fuel line the right way, and pulled the wires from the winch/lights back into the harness.

Items left to make American v8 noises on the street (more for me to checklist)

1. Install/Fab new brake switch mount and rewire
2. Bleed brakes
3. Bleed PSC/Hydro Lines
4. Hang Fenders
5. Mount Hood
6. Mount oil dipstick (probably just going to zip tie it back to the chassis like it was prior. Headers are occupying all the routing paths that would be feasible to permanent mount).
7. Fill Coolant


Wants to complete in this phase that may or may not happen

1. Mount and wire in Paddle Shifters
2. New Fuel Access Door
3. Beauty Rings around Exhaust exits
Click to expand...
Progress !!!
 
Slow Progress

She doesn't start the easiest and has an intermit backfire through the intake, originally thought it was too much initial timing but I think its running way lean but the MSD hasn't even had a chance to heat cycle yet and learn this engine combo.

Hung the fenders, cowl, tightened up the brake pedal mount and mounted the brake switch and tested everything seemed happy.

Gotta drag it out into the driveway to heat cycle and bleed brakes, i can only run the thing in my shop for 20-30 seconds before i get fumed out

 
Heat Cycled it twice over the weekend, looks like i got all the head bolts sealed up but have a coolant leak from the lower radiator hose, hopefully the rubber is still good. Going to drain the system and pull it off to verify.

Fighting a soft brake pedal still, bleed the system as long as the wife would tolerate pumping and the pedal got a bit firmer but still soft IMO. The brakes do grab WAYYYY better. Like minimal input and she comes to stop in a hurry. So the hydro boost so far seems like it was the right move.

Other than that just figuring out what this powerplant wants for timing/Fuel. at 12 initial and 34 all in right now. Have all in set to 1800rpms but i think I'm going to lower it to 1500. For Fuel i have idle at 14-1, cruise at 14-1, and WOT at 12.8-1.

Maybe you guys have some knowledge you can impart on me, the old motor had a bunch of piston slap and detention issues, along with trouble staying cool. Mopars are notorious for running on the warm side but this thing never stayed below 190 on the trail, when freeway driving or high speed desert it would easily hold 180-182. He believes its due to the RPM range the motor lives in when on the trail never allowed it get into full timing and thus ran "retarded" and hot when crawling around.

And some more pictures sense words are useless

dAzY1xh.jpg


dcUQDbQ.jpg
 
rattle_snake said:
Distributor is crooked :flipoff2:

What is controlling timing? mech distributor w/ no vac advance? EFI? May be short on timing at idle and slow speeds.
Click to expand...
Damn mopars with their ass backwards shit :flipoff2:

The MSD atomic controls timing, so the distributor has all the guts removed, set to 15 degrees on start-up then the atomic/ignition box control timing from there. So I can change pretty much anything needed as far as timing control goes
 
It's on the correct end of the block, just crooked :smokin:

Well I would fart around with the available timing parameters. Load vs timing to start, add timing to idle and low load. Assume load is calc from TPS and MAP. Use a cheap temp gun on the ex ports and see if altering the timing keeps the fuel burn in the chamber or not.

I also think 14:1 is a bit too lean for both idle and cruise. Try 13.5. Maybe this can be verified with ex port temp too.

My vac advance adds 18* ish at idle, going from 12* to 30*. Not sure what head/chamber design you are running or total timing needed.
 
rattle_snake said:
It's on the correct end of the block, just crooked :smokin:

Well I would fart around with the available timing parameters. Load vs timing to start, add timing to idle and low load. Assume load is calc from TPS and MAP. Use a cheap temp gun on the ex ports and see if altering the timing keeps the fuel burn in the chamber or not.

I also think 14:1 is a bit too lean for both idle and cruise. Try 13.5. Maybe this can be verified with ex port temp too.

My vac advance adds 18* ish at idle, going from 12* to 30*. Not sure what head/chamber design you are running or total timing needed.
Click to expand...

I have vac advance set to 15 right now.

Heads are factory 906s, open chamber 88cc's. Although I have a very nice set of edelbrock RPMs getting big valves and some CNC work done to them right now that might make their way onto this combo. Was going to build an completely fresh longblock, still might if this combo performs okay as it stands
 
2 steps forward 3 steps back.

Rear two most header bolts are still leaking. Ordered some studs so i can be done with it. Also forgot about the oil dipstick hole in the block that gets plugged on truck 440s but used on car 440s. So we lost some oil on a test drive :flipoff2: ordered the plug kit over the weekend.

Lastly i finally found why the trans didn't feel right, the return line from the trans cooler was loose and finally dripped out of the crossmember where a nice little pool had been collecting.

Gotta stop by the stealership and get some of the super secret sauce for the 8spd and top that back off.

Brake pedal is still soft, but the brakes GRAB compared to the vacuum boost i had. Not sure the best plan of attack there yet, might borrow my dads power bleeder and shove a gallon of brake fluid through the system and see if that solves the problem.
 
According to Summit my old one was 1.25" and the new one is 1.125"
 
alright let me see if I can paint y'all a word picture

The old setup was a 70s K20 master with what I think to be the original dodge vacuum boost. It barely worked "adequate" when i had a RV 440 motor in there, when i threw in the mo powa motor the cam made vaccum basically non-existent. So while the pedal "feel" was still there it took 3 football fields to come to a stop, and forget about holding the brake on a decline in low low, she crept no matter what. Which is less than ideal in quite a few scenario's.

The current setup feels very soft from the pedal but with maybe 1/4" travel the brakes grab harder than they ever did. I haven't gotten the chance to test a panic stop yet but i feel pretty confident its going to lock the brakes.

I'm not really against a soft pedal as long as it functions okay.


It should also be noted i jump been ram 3500 and 4500s all day and they notoriously take some decent pedal input to stop. To the point that if i get in a passenger car I send everyone through the dashboard at the first stop sign :lmao:

i have an adjustable proportioning valve that i haven't touched in 7 years, couldn't tell you what the ratio front/rear is. Would more rear pedal percentage increase brake feel?
 
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