RamRunner Refresh

[Bebop]

Would more rear pedal percentage increase brake feel?

No

 

[rattle_snake]

Drum rear? tighten shoes to reduce pedal travel

After I did HB swap the pedal was softer. Nothing wrong, just different.

 

[75RamRunner]

Drum rear? tighten shoes to reduce pedal travel

After I did HB swap the pedal was softer. Nothing wrong, just different.

Disc front and rear

 

[75RamRunner]

Got some decent work done last night while the kid slept

cleaned the engine bay wiring up some and rerouted the fuel lines farther from the exhaust to avoid vapor lock/heat issues

Then i got cocky

Got all 6 studs installed only to promptly remove the front 3, the header flange sits roughly 3/8" off the heads when sliding in so there so they had to come out. the flange itself is 3/16" thick so shaving the studs would've been worthless. I was able to double nut and reinstall the front most and middle front collector studs but the back fastener on the front exhaust port on either side had to remain a bolt. Just no clearance to double nut and install stud with the tube.

Good news is the passenger side head hole is blind so wont be any issues, the drivers side was not. But it was one of 3 that wasn't leaking prior so hopefully I can luck out again.

 

[75RamRunner]

Got her pulled out yesterday and heat cycled and no more coolant or oil leaks!

Threw the full doors on and will bring it to my shop to put the top on today, were in the process of moving to property so the rig needed to be flying critter tight for awhile as the shop is a phase 2 project.


I think I'm just not used to what assisted brakes feel like in the rig, because this thing STOPS now. with very little pedal input the brakes grab, i started thinking that my pedal set-up may also be the culprit, the pedal is damn near at 90 degrees full out maybe even a little towards the firewall. And I welded on a roughly 6" extension due to my limited mounting options for the bracket.

So maybe the combination of longer leverage, vertical pedal, and assisted brakes are making me feel like its a soft pedal when in reality its just fine? Guess time will tell but for now i think its ready for a trail test.

 

[Bebop]

If you added pedal ratio, the feeling will degrade for sure

 

[75RamRunner]

I normally hate having the top on this thing but with the grill painted and the black wheels I actually like the look now

I dropped the rig off at my buddy's shop up the road for the rear output seal on the atlas, we say it leaking at the slabs on the Rubicon on the last voyage of the old powerplant and i had him order the seal then. I'm moving and I'm out of time to spend in the shop on toys, have to refocus on the move/getting house ready to sell. Can't get busting the wifes ass about packing if im not getting the house in order lol.

I did drive it to my shop 10 or so miles away where the top is stored to put it on. I'm going to preface this by saying i love loud rigs, diesel trucks, etc.

This thing is loud. To the point that if i don't get a set of headsets were not having a conversation on the trail loud without yelling. In between trying to stuff a longer can in there or just getting some rugged radios and making it everyone else's problem

 

[posford]

This thing is nuts, was there a thread of the original build with the tube frame?

Pics of the exhaust and how its tucked on the outside of the frame?

 

[Bebop]

Looking good

 

[75RamRunner]

This thing is nuts, was there a thread of the original build with the tube frame?

Pics of the exhaust and how its tucked on the outside of the frame?

No thread same friend whos doing the rear output seal on the Atlas did the orginal tube work, theyre extremely talented. Not much holds up to how I drive things and this rig just keeps taking it and asking for more. I'll get some pictures of the exhaust from the collectors back once I pick it back up.

Looking good

Thank You sir!

 

[75RamRunner]

Long time without an update

We moved from the suburbs out to property so my wrenching time has significantly gone down. Got her out to Sand Mountain last weekend just to get some hours on the engine/tuning which went really well. Like a normal 440 she runs hot. I'm also abusing a 6000-7000lbs rig in the sand at 4500+ RPMs so there's that....

She went up comp hill and to the bowl no problems, thrashes around in the dunes just fine too. Rear suspension needs some more spring rate and stiffer valving but the front is super predictable and smooth.

Would have been nice to have the paddle shifters wired up so that's on the short list.

I welding in a second muffler because the single chamber was just too race car for crawling/cruising and it has a nice tone to it that wakes up nicely with RPM. I was slightly disappointed when I first started it after adding the second but its growing on me.

 

[75RamRunner]

Alright my work life is finally normalizing again so i can get some hours in on this. Want to get the paddles done in the next few weeks. We've had some hot days here again 100+ and the ole mopar blues are back. She gets hot.

Griffin radiator with twin 16" puller fans 2,000cfm each. high volume water pump, water wetter, 165 stat high flow w/ bypass.

Current powerplant is an all iron 440, aluminum intake, with a slight spicy cam and some trick fenderwell headers. But the intended use is a 650hp 500+ cube n/a aluminum headed big block. Gotta keep mama mopar proud and the LS boys hating

Truck wants to creep up to 210+ idling and gets warm fast when I'm romping on it. the fans pull it back down from the romp sessions but once its heat soaked she stays hot all day.

Only a big deal when ambient is 90+ but in california thats a lot of the season.

I experimented in the past with some different fans and even a pusher/puller combo set-up. I'm thinking taking the factory griffin fans off and swapping for some 3000cfm units. roughly a 30% increase in airflow sounds like it would make the difference in my head.

Anything stupid im missing? in before "just LS swap it pussy"

 

[posford]

Alright my work life is finally normalizing again so i can get some hours in on this. Want to get the paddles done in the next few weeks. We've had some hot days here again 100+ and the ole mopar blues are back. She gets hot.

Griffin radiator with twin 16" puller fans 2,000cfm each. high volume water pump, water wetter, 165 stat high flow w/ bypass.

Current powerplant is an all iron 440, aluminum intake, with a slight spicy cam and some trick fenderwell headers. But the intended use is a 650hp 500+ cube n/a aluminum headed big block. Gotta keep mama mopar proud and the LS boys hating

Truck wants to creep up to 210+ idling and gets warm fast when I'm romping on it. the fans pull it back down from the romp sessions but once its heat soaked she stays hot all day.

Only a big deal when ambient is 90+ but in california thats a lot of the season.

I experimented in the past with some different fans and even a pusher/puller combo set-up. I'm thinking taking the factory griffin fans off and swapping for some 3000cfm units. roughly a 30% increase in airflow sounds like it would make the difference in my head.

Anything stupid im missing? in before "just LS swap it pussy"

I recall that running without a thermostat can cause the water to flow through the system fast enough that the radiator can't pull the heat out of the coolant, with a high flow WP and high flow thermostat and a bypass, are you running into a similar issue?

Also, the roadkill trick is to get a pump up garden sprayer full of water and mist the radiator to help it cool better when hot.

 

[Bebop]

What fans do you have now, what are the bigger fans, what is the rad size?

 

[Mad Max]

first thing I'd do is grab an IR gun and take the temps at the inlet and outlet of the radiator - if the outlet (to the engine) is 210* then yah the radiator isn't pulling enough heat out, and I'd start there. Doesn't sound like the engine is inherently too hot, so maybe too much/too little timing, or running lean...? Might consider a Cummins radiator - it'll handle all the heat you can throw at it. Might also consider a mechanical clutch fan - that way it's always 'cooling', unlike an electric setup which only turns on when it's too hot.

 

[75RamRunner]

What fans do you have now, what are the bigger fans, what is the rad size?

Its a Griffin radiator combo deal not sure the brand of the fans, radiators pretty big 4" thick and 36x20ish

first thing I'd do is grab an IR gun and take the temps at the inlet and outlet of the radiator - if the outlet (to the engine) is 210* then yah the radiator isn't pulling enough heat out, and I'd start there. Doesn't sound like the engine is inherently too hot, so maybe too much/too little timing, or running lean...? Might consider a Cummins radiator - it'll handle all the heat you can throw at it. Might also consider a mechanical clutch fan - that way it's always 'cooling', unlike an electric setup which only turns on when it's too hot.

Didnt think of that i have a heat gun in my truck ill see what the temps are now.

Interesting you mention the lean condition ive been having an issue with the self learning on the EFI that on start-up it wants to run at 16-18:1 for a 5-10 seconds and then adjusts but it keeps trying to go back there. Ive checked for exhaust leaks multiple times to ensure its not getting some false reading going on.

I'm currently at 16 initial, 34 all in. I do have it set that at 2200rpms it goes all in on timing. My old engine had some nasty piston marks from constantly being ran at "idle" under load and never seeing full timing.

Can't do the clutch fan, not enough room. 3.5" ish from the radiator to the water pump pulley

 

[rattle_snake]

I think your expectation is part of the issue.

210 isn't hot, that is normal. Hell a typical fan clutch doesn't even start until 210-220. and 90 ambient isn't hot either.

I have a similar rig to you. 6000#, Iron big block, heavy foot. I live in PHX area and my truck runs 'fine' with cold A/C in 115-120 ambient. Coolant temps peak to 220 at a long stop light but who cares? It never overheats in brutal conditions.

I run a mechanical fan with a modified clutch (to lower on temp from 213 to 207ish), A stock 1970s copper/brass style 'super cooler' radiator, high flow 180 stat (165 will just open sooner but not regulate), and a tight custom fan shroud. I also use a bell pan and sealed all at gaps in the core to prevent cavitation of hot air back into rad. I left inner fenders in so air has to go over motor & headers and exit through tunnel. Electric fans work well at stop/idle, crawling but don't move anywhere near the amount of air a mechanical fan does at high load/high RPM.

A also have a 600 hp 2004 mustang cobra. It never overheats in hottest weather. If I hook up a scanner I read coolant at 230, gauge reads 'normal'. Cars hauls ass, A/C is cold. As designed, nothing to fix.

2014 F250 6.7 diesel doesn't engage fan until 223.

 

[holdmypocket]

If you decide to stick to the electrical set-up I'd do as suggested and check inlet/outlet temperatures and then evaluate the sensor situation.

How are you sensing the temperature to tell the electric fans to turn-on/speed-up?

What works for me is an inline sensor at the outlet of the radiator. It's just a copper pipe with a bung soldered into the top:


I previously had one that just slipped under the hose directly onto the radiator's outlet but it was too slow at reading the temperature and the fan would react too slowly.

 

[Bebop]

Its a Griffin radiator combo deal not sure the brand of the fans, radiators pretty big 4" thick and 36x20ish

The Ultra4 team I help keeps a 850hp LSX cool under race condition with a 36x16 core rad.
By cool I mean sub 200 at all times.
You have an issue.

What fans do you use?

Interesting you mention the lean condition ive been having an issue with the self learning on the EFI that on start-up it wants to run at 16-18:1 for a 5-10 seconds and then adjusts but it keeps trying to go back there. Ive checked for exhaust leaks multiple times to ensure its not getting some false reading going on.

I'm currently at 16 initial, 34 all in. I do have it set that at 2200rpms it goes all in on timing. My old engine had some nasty piston marks from constantly being ran at "idle" under load and never seeing full timing.

You need to have this vehicle tuned by a competent guy who knows your ECU setup and get this dialed. It's not rocket science but the "self tuning" feature is BS.

Can't do the clutch fan, not enough room. 3.5" ish from the radiator to the water pump pulley

That's going to be one of your issues. You need more room to put fans that actually move air.

There is already 1.5" for the shroud and a good fan is going to be 3 to 4" by itself on top of that.

 

[75RamRunner]

I think your expectation is part of the issue.

210 isn't hot, that is normal. Hell a typical fan clutch doesn't even start until 210-220. and 90 ambient isn't hot either.

I have a similar rig to you. 6000#, Iron big block, heavy foot. I live in PHX area and my truck runs 'fine' with cold A/C in 115-120 ambient. Coolant temps peak to 220 at a long stop light but who cares? It never overheats in brutal conditions.

I run a mechanical fan with a modified clutch (to lower on temp from 213 to 207ish), A stock 1970s copper/brass style 'super cooler' radiator, high flow 180 stat (165 will just open sooner but not regulate), and a tight custom fan shroud. I also use a bell pan and sealed all at gaps in the core to prevent cavitation of hot air back into rad. I left inner fenders in so air has to go over motor & headers and exit through tunnel. Electric fans work well at stop/idle, crawling but don't move anywhere near the amount of air a mechanical fan does at high load/high RPM.

A also have a 600 hp 2004 mustang cobra. It never overheats in hottest weather. If I hook up a scanner I read coolant at 230, gauge reads 'normal'. Cars hauls ass, A/C is cold. As designed, nothing to fix.

2014 F250 6.7 diesel doesn't engage fan until 223.

210 isnt "hot" i agree but the issue is once im at 210 or above its one 10 second throttle blip to 230+. My aluminium headed motor ran 10-15 degrees cooler.

The Ultra4 team I help keeps a 850hp LSX cool under race condition with a 36x16 core rad.
By cool I mean sub 200 at all times.
You have an issue.

What fans do you use?


You need to have this vehicle tuned by a competent guy who knows your ECU setup and get this dialed. It's not rocket science but the "self tuning" feature is BS.


That's going to be one of your issues. You need more room to put fans that actually move air.

There is already 1.5" for the shroud and a good fan is going to be 3 to 4" by itself on top of that.

This is the setup

Griffin Thermal Products CU-70013 Griffin Performance Fit Radiator Combos | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Griffin Performance Fit Radiator Combos with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Radiators at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

I'm going to try some higher CFM fans, measured yesterday and i can fit them, my relays are all good for the added amperage. I'm pretty positive sure its the airflow. Im hoping by the description those fans are 2000cfm each but if its 2000 total im definitely under aired.

Fans are controlled by the MSD atomic ECU and set to come on at 170, stat opens at 165.

I do agree on the tuning, ive been putting it off because quite honestly im planning on swapping to a sniper EFI x-flow when the new powerplant is done because the msd doesnt have big enough injectors to support the new HP. And its now 8-10 year old tech, which isn't old by any means but in terms of EFI advancement there's been some significant improvements. I can "tune" but im not a tuner. The paramters the atomic lets you modify are pretty limited anyways, idle cruise and WOT AFRs and timing control is pretty much it. Cant open a map and change values at a given rpm.

 

[Bebop]

This is the setup

Griffin Thermal Products CU-70013 Griffin Performance Fit Radiator Combos | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Griffin Performance Fit Radiator Combos with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Radiators at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

I'm going to try some higher CFM fans, measured yesterday and i can fit them, my relays are all good for the added amperage. I'm pretty positive sure its the airflow. Im hoping by the description those fans are 2000cfm each but if its 2000 total im definitely under aired.

Those fans are a joke.
This is what you need:

SPAL Automotive USA IX-30102803 Spal Electric Fans | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Spal Electric Fans with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Fans, Electric at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

Careful, they are 4.5" thick and draw 30amp each.
But they are fucking amazing and absolutely worth the effort of stuffing them in here.

Fans are controlled by the MSD atomic ECU and set to come on at 170, stat opens at 165.

Which means that none of these things work like they're supposed to.

I do agree on the tuning, ive been putting it off because quite honestly im planning on swapping to a sniper EFI x-flow when the new powerplant is done because the msd doesnt have big enough injectors to support the new HP. And its now 8-10 year old tech, which isn't old by any means but in terms of EFI advancement there's been some significant improvements. I can "tune" but im not a tuner. The paramters the atomic lets you modify are pretty limited anyways, idle cruise and WOT AFRs and timing control is pretty much it. Cant open a map and change values at a given rpm.

I understand that, but if you kill an engine now because of shit tuning, you'll spend more money and regret not having taken care of that earlier. A $500ish tuning session is cheap compared to the potential damage on a nice engine like you have.

 

[Mad Max]

if you're looking for recommendations on tuning help, when you buy your next EFI system buy it from Scott at EFI Systems Pro - if you buy from him directly you also get a complimentary 2 years of free pro tuning, which I have been immensely thankful for after getting my Sniper from him.

Might also consider an oil cooler - draw even more heat from the internal fluids, etc. I'm likely going to have to do an oil cooler as well to support my 5.9 Mag engine with the stock '14 Wrangler JK radiator for the 3.6 - it might be enough but I'm not overly confident...tho I do have the BIG magnum clutch fan constantly drawing in air...

 

[75RamRunner]

Those fans are a joke.

Which means that none of these things work like they're supposed to.

I understand that, but if you kill an engine now because of shit tuning, you'll spend more money and regret not having taken care of that earlier. A $500ish tuning session is cheap compared to the potential damage on a nice engine like you have.

1. Yeah they suck, i ordered a similar one that's 3.25" thick and good for 3,000cfm each. Mixed review on if the motor will show up sealed or not but guess ill report back on that

Flex-a-lite 238 Flex-A-Lite Flex-Wave Electric Fans | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Flex-A-Lite Flex-Wave Electric Fans with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Fans, Electric at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

2. Well, yeah I've been fighting the thermostat to fan ratio for some time and it seems like the 5-6 degree differential in "programming" fan temp keeps thermostat open but allows the fans to cycle on/off. Well it did at one point. i cant remember if i swapped the radiator and fans before or after i pulled the old engine.

3. I think you misread, the engine i have in there is a 500 dollar long block with some bolt ons and a cam that replaced a nicer 440 that i lost oil pressure in. If the current one grenades ill rinse wash and repeat, there's low compression motorhome 440s available, not LS available but theyre around. The 505" engine that I'm building with the aforementioned 650hp is getting a sniper x-flow or similar and will 100% be getting tuned prior to any floggings by myself.

if you're looking for recommendations on tuning help, when you buy your next EFI system buy it from Scott at EFI Systems Pro - if you buy from him directly you also get a complimentary 2 years of free pro tuning, which I have been immensely thankful for after getting my Sniper from him.

Might also consider an oil cooler - draw even more heat from the internal fluids, etc. I'm likely going to have to do an oil cooler as well to support my 5.9 Mag engine with the stock '14 Wrangler JK radiator for the 3.6 - it might be enough but I'm not overly confident...tho I do have the BIG magnum clutch fan constantly drawing in air...

ill absolutely look into EFI systems and Scott, I've actually had some great luck with remote tuning on the 8hp trans so I'm pretty familiar with the process. Funny you mention the oil cooler, i previous had exhaust that wrapped around the front sump (only way to get the passenger side out of the way of the drive shaft) and it was a huge factor in the cooling abilities of the system. Since going to the "fenderwell" headers my oil temps have gone down a good 15-20 degrees and trend with that of the cooling system instead of a constant heat source.

 

[Bebop]

1. Yeah they suck, i ordered a similar one that's 3.25" thick and good for 3,000cfm each. Mixed review on if the motor will show up sealed or not but guess ill report back on that

Flex-a-lite 238 Flex-A-Lite Flex-Wave Electric Fans | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Flex-A-Lite Flex-Wave Electric Fans with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Fans, Electric at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

They're gonna suck too.
18 amps is meh at best.
You shouldn't pay attention to the CFM rating at 0

 

[75RamRunner]

They're gonna suck too.
18 amps is meh at best.
You shouldn't pay attention to the CFM rating at 0

I get that what your saying is the load draw is a better indicator of air moved but that's a fucked way to compare fans considering different motors may have different resistance and different draws for the same CFM. If they suck they suck and ill look at other options.

I only have 3.5" from shroud to pulley so those SPALs wont fit without reworking the radiator support and i don't really want to fuck with that until i have too, then i have to move the PS oil cooler, extended trans lines, rework radiator plumbing, etc. This should be a striaght swap, redrill mounting holes and off to the races deal.

 

[Bebop]

I get that what your saying is the load draw is a better indicator of air moved

Yes

but that's a fucked way to compare fans considering different motors may have different resistance and different draws for the same CFM.

No.

We literally have fan experts on this board and they'll all tell you the same thing.

I'm not an expert, but I have spent thousands of $ over the years in fans to try various shit and at the end of the day, nothing will beat a fan that draws a fuck ton of amps. Plain and simple.

 

[75RamRunner]

Yes


No.

We literally have fan experts on this board and they'll all tell you the same thing.

I'm not an expert, but I have spent thousands of $ over the years in fans to try various shit and at the end of the day, nothing will beat a fan that draws a fuck ton of amps. Plain and simple.

I didnt say you were wrong my friend, i just said thats fucked The goal is to move air, the easy way to compare would be volume of air moved ie CFM to CFM.

Like i said if they suck ass ill find the biggest amperage fans for the space i can fit and go there. At one point in time i had a combo that worked. well in everything but 110+ ambient and my foot on the floor

 

[Bebop]

The goal is to move air, the easy way to compare would be volume of air moved ie CFM to CFM.

Only if you compare fans with the proper static pressure.

Lots of fans move big CFMs at 0 static pressure and have curves that fall apart as soon as you put a big rad or a stack of them in front.

 

[Mad Max]

still need to determine your radiator inlet/outlet temps before pulling triggers on anything. Another thought I had was, with your high-flow pump and 165* stat it is possible you're flowing coolant through the rad too fast - not enough time in the rad to pull out the heat. Just a possibility, but gotta git those rad temps - that'll tell all.

I might also suggest draining the coolant (and water-wetter) and replace it with pre-mixed Zerex G05 (with the 'good' water already pre-mixed 50/50 in it) - the G05 is all I use now in everything.

 

[Bebop]

Another thought I had was, with your high-flow pump and 165* stat it is possible you're flowing coolant through the rad too fast - not enough time in the rad to pull out the heat.

This is a myth.