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CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
The park brake is probably some flavor of Mico caliper which will use common heavy equipment brake pads.
www.mico.com
Caliper Disc Brakes | ZF MICO
WaterH
Well-known member
I prefer to not have the selinoid and I might change them later. Right now I’m just seeing if this is worth putting some money into. I don’t really consider a selinoid to be “electronic”. When I say electronic, I mean diodes, resisters, capacitors and computers.
I would love a manual controller, but that kind of price is not going to happen. Possibly, I can make it somehow.
WaterH
Well-known member
It very well could be. I tried to find them, but not easy to find in their on line stuff. If I find I need them, I might convert to a more standard automotive brake.The park brake is probably some flavor of Mico caliper which will use common heavy equipment brake pads.
Caliper Disc Brakes | ZF MICO
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
I wouldn't consider a solenoid electronic either but the components required to give you proportional control to power them will be.
I am sure a real nerd can design a non solid state drive system but that's not me.
The reason I suggested the $10 PWM driver is you could fairly easily use them to give you a working variable speed drive system for testing.
WaterH
Well-known member
That is interesting. Like I said, I’m electronic dumb. Are you saying that thing can control the selinoid? I don’t understand how it would do that. Would the selinoid go in and out over and over? Is it designed for that? If it moved that fast, would it move the swash as desired.
AKnate
Icehole
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2022
- Member Number
- 4908
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- 1,218
That shit is annoying after having alot of ass time in normal sized excavators.So got back on it today. First tried to lift motor on. Nope. Put it on a floor Jack and up into place. Still couldn’t get it to slide into the splines. I found a long bolt that matched the threads. Only one, but it should help line it up. I got to this point a realized I didn’t have any gasket.
The splines still weren’t lined up yet or I would have just run it. Since it wasn’t in yet, I pulled it apart and made a gasket. So here it is with gasket. I also overhauled the whole motor. (Wire brushed and painted)
I got all the fittings I ordered. I have a saying “if it ain’t for wrong fittings, I wouldn’t order fittings at all”. So I don’t have the ones I really need, but I dug though my boxes and got enough for a test run on the right side wheels. Since I didn’t want it to move, I wanted Jack stands to hold the wheels off the ground. I hoisted the rear up with the excavator and put a stand under. On the front, the excavator didn’t have enough balls.
I finished with the floor Jack. My plan was to lift the wheels with the hydro cylinders. For some reason they wouldn’t work now. I was running out of light, so it will have to wait till tomorrow. I’m ready to see those wheels turn.
Always seems like never enough boom length or lifting power with the little ones.
Mine maybe will lift 3000lbs. Hitachi 330 could lift my little thing while it's lifting that
AKnate
Icehole
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2022
- Member Number
- 4908
- Messages
- 1,218
I have that Amazon kit, it works fine.
And the lime green butt plug things.
With decent hydraulic oil costing me $12/gallon I try to not return to mother earth too much.
Have that JIC kit and I think an ORB kit.They cost more than a cheapo steel kit
And the lime green butt plug things.
With decent hydraulic oil costing me $12/gallon I try to not return to mother earth too much.
WaterH
Well-known member
Ok, I have to make a decision about the voltage. I just got word from the alternator shop. Specifically, do I want to keep this 24 volt or convert to 12 volt.
Factors to consider staying 24 volt,
Cost to fix my alternator $450 or buy a new lesser quality 24 Volt one for $275. Of course I need two batteries. Anything I want to install on it will need to be 24 volt. Lights, stereo, winch……Maybe there is a 12 volt transformer to knock the voltage down, but I doubt you can run something big like a winch. I guess I could just wire stuff off of one battery. ( I don’t think that’s good for the batteries.) I also think LED lights can run on almost any voltage. (I need to check on this)
Going 12 volt
Requires new alternator and starter. Possibly require new solenoids on the hydro pump. I say possibly because they may fire on 12 volt and/or I might remove and make them manual. Those solenoids cost around $250 apiece and there are 4 of them.
I think it would be nice to have it 12 volt, but probably more money up front.
Hypothetical question-
We all know a 12 volt battery is at rest should be about 12.5 volts. If it goes down around 11 volts, it will probably not start a motor. Would that mean a 24 volt system that goes down to 22 will not start something? What if you jump one battery in a 2 battery series to a running (12 volt) vehicle? If the running vehicle is pushing 14 volts and the other dead battery is 11 volts, that would mean you have 25 volts, right? Or does it not work like that?
Factors to consider staying 24 volt,
Cost to fix my alternator $450 or buy a new lesser quality 24 Volt one for $275. Of course I need two batteries. Anything I want to install on it will need to be 24 volt. Lights, stereo, winch……Maybe there is a 12 volt transformer to knock the voltage down, but I doubt you can run something big like a winch. I guess I could just wire stuff off of one battery. ( I don’t think that’s good for the batteries.) I also think LED lights can run on almost any voltage. (I need to check on this)
Going 12 volt
Requires new alternator and starter. Possibly require new solenoids on the hydro pump. I say possibly because they may fire on 12 volt and/or I might remove and make them manual. Those solenoids cost around $250 apiece and there are 4 of them.
I think it would be nice to have it 12 volt, but probably more money up front.
Hypothetical question-
We all know a 12 volt battery is at rest should be about 12.5 volts. If it goes down around 11 volts, it will probably not start a motor. Would that mean a 24 volt system that goes down to 22 will not start something? What if you jump one battery in a 2 battery series to a running (12 volt) vehicle? If the running vehicle is pushing 14 volts and the other dead battery is 11 volts, that would mean you have 25 volts, right? Or does it not work like that?
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
Pulse Width Modulation varies the ON/OFF time of of the signal which varies the current to the solenoid coil and provides "infinite" position of the armature inside the solenoid cartridge which will vary the pilot pressure supplied to the servo control and ultimately the swash plate angle.
Long video explanation
WaterH
Well-known member
I watched the video and it makes sense, but that valve is designed for it. I’m not sure you can just hook that thing to just any selinoid. Interesting, never the less. I doubt I would go that route, but everything is up for discussion at this point.
AKnate
Icehole
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2022
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- 4908
- Messages
- 1,218
You can tap off one battery for 12 volt stuff. For high draw stuff though, like a winch, I'd take advantage of a 24v one.
I've jump started 24v heavy equipment with 2 12v jump packs. Ir charged shit like 24v or 36v man lifts, floor scrubbers with 12v chargers.
24v system usually charges at around 28v.
Last edited:
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
Your valve was designed for it. Why do you think it's not?
Do you have the original joystick/controls?
You realize what you have is what's in every hydrastat bull dozer we sell today?
I thought about this some earlier but I was driving... I think it's possible to convert the controller you have to pilot oil operation. That's actually all the solenoids do. So if you modified the stem of the cartridge to accept a hose connection or just simply added 1/8 npt ports in the right placed you could control the pumps with either hydraulic foot pedals or joysticks.
WaterH
Well-known member
This thing never had joysticks. It was a steering wheel that was “fly by wire”. This was the first of its kind. Supposedly, it could be driven at 60 mph with no more difficulty than driving a car. I know a tank can do that, but it doesn’t have to worry about hitting trees, buildings and other shit.
I looked through catalogs till I’m blue in the face. I havnt found a set of selinoids that have the “ball lever” like this one.
I don’t know if the pumps were ever “controlled” except for on and off and reverse. I think they did all the speed control at the motor. That’s where I’m planing to do it if I could ever order the right fittings. I’ve got my third set and they don’t fit. I measured the threads and it appears they are metric banjo bolts that I need to convert to jic fittings.
WaterH
Well-known member
So have you ever jumped 24 V stuff with only one 12 V jump pack? What I’m thinking is if I need a jump, but there is only a 12 V vehicle around. I guess I could jump one battery for five minutes and then switch the cables over to the other battery and try to start it.
AKnate
Icehole
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2022
- Member Number
- 4908
- Messages
- 1,218
Yes. Done that with a charger too.
Just make damn sure it's hooked to 12v though.
Had a tow outfit haul a CAT 941 for me and he tried jumping it like it was 12v.
Batteries were brand new, was just a loose connection.
Blew the alternator and some fuses out of his tow truck. They tried pushing that I was in the hook for the repairs.
Yeahhhhh... OK
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
I'm going to tell you again you are wrong, I hope you listen.
The solenoids modulate that's what they do.
Solenoids won't have ball controls, the pump controller will.
You're asking and I'm telling...
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
Do it VERY often... Heavy equipment is 24v...
You charge one battery for 10 minutes, move the cables to the other battery for 10 minutes, start the engine.
I use a Duramax powered service truck, all standard 12v shit, I've done this for 20 years professionally.
If you are in a hurry a engine driven welder can be used to charge/jump but the voltage can get pretty wild if you get greedy with current.
WaterH
Well-known member
When I say ball lever, I’m referring to this. Do you see the knob sticking out of the block on the left? That is what moves when the selinoid fires.
Edit, in any case, I’m not saying you’re wrong because I don’t know. But as I said before, I would rather not go electronic. If it’s the only possibility, I guess I will.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
If you humour my shade tree idea it might save you a bunch of money.
If you "remove" the solenoid cartridges from the equation and physically port the existing channel from the solenoid modulation to allow a hose to connect to it you could utilize very cheap/common excavator foot pedals to drive the pumps, as you desire.
No electronics needed.
Its going to take some research of the parts you have on hand and might involve some hackfuckery but I think it's 100% possible and will give you excellent results.
If you "remove" the solenoid cartridges from the equation and physically port the existing channel from the solenoid modulation to allow a hose to connect to it you could utilize very cheap/common excavator foot pedals to drive the pumps, as you desire.
No electronics needed.
Its going to take some research of the parts you have on hand and might involve some hackfuckery but I think it's 100% possible and will give you excellent results.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
Does the solenoid move oil or the lever?When I say ball lever, I’m referring to this. Do you see the knob sticking out of the block on the left? That is what moves when the selinoid fires.
Edit, in any case, I’m not saying you’re wrong because I don’t know. But as I said before, I would rather not go electronic. If it’s the only possibility, I guess I will.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
Foot Pilot Valve Hydraulic Foot Pedal Joystick Control Valve Foot CNC Excavator | eBay
Before you open a case.
www.ebay.com
WaterH
Well-known member
It moves that lever. Only about 1/4” travel total. Couldn’t really see what the lever does inside the pump.
WaterH
Well-known member
Foot Pilot Valve Hydraulic Foot Pedal Joystick Control Valve Foot CNC Excavator | eBay
Before you open a case.www.ebay.com
Boy the price is right. I would rather have hand joysticks that are no electronics. If I ever get the right fittings, I will be testing the motor control. I just ordered my forth set of fittings. Metric M14-1.5 to AN6
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
The lever moved the servo spool, which moves the swash plate.
The ball lever is a feedback to provide servo position to the controller.
The controller applies oil via these ports to the servo spool.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
I'll try and dig up a "systems operation" for a pump with this controller, we should have some info on it.
Then you can visually see the functions and we can figure out how to bypass.
Then you can visually see the functions and we can figure out how to bypass.
WaterH
Well-known member
I get the general idea, but I need to see the whole thing disassembled to really understand.The lever moved the servo spool, which moves the swash plate.
The ball lever is a feedback to provide servo position to the controller.
The controller applies oil via these ports to the servo spool.
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
Not super detailed but it's something.
See the curves for amperage to position?
See the curves for amperage to position?
WaterH
Well-known member
Question for anyone. When I turn the wheels on Jack stands by turning the pump on, they stop almost immediately when I turn the pump off. If this is on the ground doing a few mph and I turn the pump off, will it act like brakes or just coast down? If I let the parking brake go at speed, will it be distroyed?
CarterKraft
Red Skull Member
It will lose servo pressure and braje pressure simultaneously, shifting to "park" and setting the brake. The drive pressure will go over the cross over relief valves in the motor? and slow very quickly to a stop.
Not something you would want to do a lot.