Vulcan 8 x 8

[WaterH]

Here's all my comments on what I can see.
IMO you don't need to adjust "Stops" they are set when the pump is on the flow bench and almost never require field adjustment. The Neutral setting can be adjusted if the pump "NEUTRAL" is out of whack.
The relief valves can be adjusted but you really need to know to what pressure.

There are two more reliefs that are not in good view. You can see one in this pic if you zoom in on the top pump. You can see them it under the big hose from the bottom pump.

I don’t think any of the literature I have shows that, but I will check. When I was first working on this, I watched a bunch of videos on closed loop systems. One of them was good and seemed to be just like mine. Of course I can’t find that one anymore.

 

[CarterKraft]

There are two more reliefs that are not in good view. You can see one in this pic if you zoom in on the top pump. You can see them it under the big hose from the bottom pump.

The two "symetrical" reliefs are likely cross over reliefs in the drive circuit.

The larger single relief on top is the charge relief valve.

 

[WaterH]

The two "symetrical" reliefs are likely cross over reliefs in the drive circuit.

The larger single relief on top is the charge relief valve.

So if the cross over reliefs were set to low or maybe damaged some how, would the wheels turn on Jack stands, but slow down with resistance?

Are those kind of reliefs just a spring and seal?

 

[CarterKraft]

So if the cross over reliefs were set to low or maybe damaged some how, would the wheels turn on Jack stands, but slow down with resistance?

Are those kind of reliefs just a spring and seal?

yeah but that would require both sides to have similar failures, not likely.
Its more likely the servo pressure etc. is too low to fully move the swash plates to full displacement.

the reliefs are likely pilot operated not poppet style. sort of the same design but more complex.

 

[WaterH]

More work,

I went down there and started the machine to see if the higher head pressure did anything. It might have been slightly better or just might have been cooler, but definitely nothing to write home (Irate) about.

While I had it running I checked the voltage. When the machine is at idle, I don’t seem to have any charge. When I rev it up, it charges fine. The guy at the alternator shop said I might need a smaller pulley for this alternator.

I was scratching my head about why the wheel jacks arnt working either. Also why I need to hold the range selector to make it go. I got to thinking the only thing I changed was the installation of the range selector. That thing has a pressure line and a return line. I wondered if the return line was bleeding off pressure from my pilot system. That would make sense because when I pull the range lever, it blocks the return and pilot pressure would go up everywhere.

I installed this shut off valve on the return. (The yellow cut off on right)

Started it up and immediately tried the wheel jacks. Sure enough, they would go up. It’s excruciatingly slow, but they go up. Next I got up on the seat (fender) and opened the cut off. I could hear a difference in the tone. I pulled the range lever to the low range and held it fo a bit. Then I shut the cut off before letting go of the lever.

Set both switches forward and hit the go button…… and off it went climbing the hill easy at the breath taking speed of low range. (About 3 mph) I switched the left side off and on a couple times and it turned.

So I stopped and switched the range selector to high range for a bit. (With the return line open) Shut the return line and let go of the lever. Switched the direction switches to reverse and hit the go button. Off it went at a blistering pace of over 5 mph! When I let go of the button, it does stop pretty Danm quick. Not sure how that’s going to work at faster speeds. I will say, a proper seat would make a big difference here.

The next test was high range up hill. It started and then stopped. I knoticed a sound from the pump area. I’m thinking the relief is humming. The diesel motor was not laboring at all, so it must be in the pumps. I put it back in low range and drove it around a bit and all was well. It definitely doesn’t turn all that great. It likes it when you go forward and alternate switching one side off and on.

So the lever valves I got let the pilot pressure go on to the return when the levers are not used. The valves I have on the wheel jacks don’t do this. I thought they were the same thing, but I see they have a differnt part number. They look identical, so maybe there’s a way I can change it. I had planed to use these valves for controlling the hydro motors and was only using it on the range selector temporarily. I’m not sure what I need for the hydro motors, but I need to figure this stuff out before I order anymore valves at $150 a pop.

It would appear that I need to adjust the reliefs also because it doesn’t want to go in high range. It’s not like it’s going to get better when and if I get control of the hydro motor.

 

[CarterKraft]

IMO I'd shit can the manual wheel jack lifts and hook that shit back up the way it was and with 2 switches you'd have the correct operation of all the systems.

You have a mostly complete machine, use as much of the OEM shit as possible.

 

[WaterH]

IMO I'd shit can the manual wheel jack lifts and hook that shit back up the way it was and with 2 switches you'd have the correct operation of all the systems.

You have a mostly complete machine, use as much of the OEM shit as possible.

Whether I use manual valves or electric valves is not relevant. I don’t know where the wheel jacks got their pressure. I unhook lots of shit, but I dont recall capping anything.

In any case, I don’t have a OEM schematic, so there is no going back.

 

[CarterKraft]

Whether I use manual valves or electric valves is not relevant. I don’t know where the wheel jacks got their pressure. I unhook lots of shit, but I dont recall capping anything.

In any case, I don’t have a OEM schematic, so there is no going back.

I am talking about the valves YOU BOUGHT and installed that are obviously open center and you needed close center.

You are gonna be a hydraulic expert by the end of this if you make it.

 

[WaterH]

I am talking about the valves YOU BOUGHT and installed that are obviously open center and you needed close center.

You are gonna be a hydraulic expert by the end of this if you make it.

I admit that when I saw “open center” or “closed center” I assumed they ment when you let go of the lever, the two control lines are either blocked or unblocked. I don’t see why they would make the pressure source bleed pressure off. I guess that’s to feed another set of levers. Thinking about it, that wouldn’t work either. I don’t know why they make it like that. Anyways I ordered a plug that converts it to a closed center.

 

[WaterH]

So didn’t do any work today, but I did take it for an extensive ride around the yard.

I got it at the bottom of the shallow hill and put it in high range. I put my hand on one of the reliefs to see if I could feel it bypassing with I hit the button. Much to my surprise, it took off at a high rate of speed. (Relatively speaking). So I drove it across the yard. I tried to switch one side off and on to make it turn like I was doing in low range and it won’t turn much. It does give me a rough ride sitting on the fender. I figure it’s going 8-10 mph when I hold it for a bit. It slows down fast if I let go of the button.

I tried the zero turn in high range and that’s pretty much a no go. I put it in low range and it will pivot in a spot.

I didn’t go the whole way around, but it’s obvious that it will. I was afraid to tear these old tires off the rims. The front and back tires really are going sideways hard. The engineer I talked to at the factory said they had it set up to lift the front and back tires every time you turned the steering wheel. He said they don’t have to come off the ground, but just removing some of the pressure makes a big difference.

I don’t understand why the reliefs weren’t blowing today like yesterday. Do you think they just needed “exercising” ? I did a couple slight turns in the tall grass. In high range it will labor the diesel sometimes.

The pic doesn’t show it, but it dug right down to the dirt. I did a slight turn in low range with the “on and off” one side deal and you can see the track.

Since I’m not going to have a computer lifting the front and back tires in turns, I’m thinking I will just lift them slightly and leave ‘em.

 

[CarterKraft]

If you could vary the current to the solenoids it would be easy to make gradual turns etc.

Just slightly raising those wheels would seem to be all you need, just something to relieve the pressure off the corners.

 

[WaterH]

If you could vary the current to the solenoids it would be easy to make gradual turns etc.

Just slightly raising those wheels would seem to be all you need, just something to relieve the pressure off the corners.

Today I locked the two middle wheels and let the front and back wheels relax. The entire machine when down slightly. I guess because more weight was on the middle wheels. It looked like all the wheels were supporting it even, but when I took it for a drive, it was way better. Now a pivot turn doesn’t tear up the yard right down to the dirt. The “on and off” turn has more effect with out being so jerky on the ride.

About the ride, switching the pumps on and off or trying to turn makes for a rough ride, but if I just hold it in forward, it rides nice. There’s a spot in my grass where a cement truck turned around. It made some ruts that have since grown over to be invisible. When I hit those invisible ruts with my tractor or my truck, I can sure feel them. I would never drive my Delorean or my wife’s Vette over that section of grass because it’s so rough. But the Vulcan goes right over with a little rumble. 8 wheel independent suspension for the win. lol.

 

[WaterH]

So back at it again today. I finally got the fittings I needed to thread into the motors. So I hooked the levers to feed pilot pressure to the motor control.

Had a lot of issues with leaking hydro fluid. I had the vacuum on the resivour, but it fell in the tank and sucked a couple gallons in to the vacuum. Of course I had a bunch of metal chips in it already, so made a big oily sharp mess. Anyways, got the the whole thing hooked up.

You can see I have the return line cut off set at a 45. I still don’t have the closed center conversion plug, so I figured this would stop losing all my pilot pressure. Since I hooked both motors up, one to each lever, I didn’t have a lever to change the high/low gear box. I just hook it so it would stay in low range. I figure if I can speed the low range up from 3 mph to 9 mph, I should be happy with the speed in high range with the same kind of improvement.

Started it up and drove it for a couple minutes with just to see it operated the same with the remote. Then I got it on a long stretch at the low range speed and pulled both levers. Nothing changed. I pushed both levers. No change. It just plodded along at 3 mph. I don’t really know what to think. Could the swash in the motor be stuck?

The other thing I played with was my optical tach from Harbor Fraight. It always worked good before, but it was giving me fits trying to read the reflector I put on the fan. In any case, it appears this thing idles at about 900 and I have it up at 2500 when I’m driving it around. The tach on the instrument panel has a red line at 4000, so I guess I could turn it a bit faster if I wanted.

 

[CarterKraft]

Gonna need more pix with explanation of which port on the lever valve goes where on the motor, also which port on the lever valve itself is what?

 

[WaterH]

Gonna need more pix with explanation of which port on the lever valve goes where on the motor, also which port on the lever valve itself is what?

Well, there’s only two ports on the motor and two ports for one lever. I pushed the levers both ways, so even if I hooked em up backwards, it should do something.

 

[WaterH]

Well, there’s only two ports on the motor and two ports for one lever. I pushed the levers both ways, so even if I hooked em up backwards, it should do something.

Cartercraft, I’m lying in this post. Not on purpose, but I got to thinking about it and I left some stuff out. I am in the process of taking some stuff apart and I will give you a complete description with pics shortly.

I also have some theory’s to bounce off you. I should post by tonight.

 

[WaterH]

Ok, here goes. I’m going to explain everything real basic. Not because you don’t understand, but because I want you to know that I understand. (Or maybe I don’t)

The motor has 6 ports on it.

The top center in the pic is a case drain about 1” hose. On the right you can see a large 1 1/2” hose that is part of the closed system. It can’t be seen here, but there is another large hose below the aluminum block just under the first large hose fitting. Then there are two banjo bolt ports at the lower right. The final port is covered by the aluminum block mentioned earlier.

I made a aluminum block to cover the port on the motor so I could remove the current one for examination.

I put an AN fitting there so I could test or cap this port. I installed a cut off valve on it. To make it easy.

The aluminum block is actually two blocks with holes in them that line up with each other. One block has a selinoid on the end.

I separated the blocks to figure out how this all worked. The top block folds over to mount on the lower block. You can see the hole on the left that doesn’t have an o-ring doesn’t have a corresponding hole in the bottom block. (Not used)

I tested all the holes to see how they connected. I drew a shitty diagram of the schematic.

I really screwed up the drawing, but maybe you can follow. I’ll give you some help.

All the holes with X’s on them are mount holes and have nothing to do with the flow.

Port “1” is an AN nipple on the back side of the top block. It goes through that block and lines up with the “1” hole on the lower block and joins the banjo bolt fitting on the left. It goes no where else and has nothing to do with the selinoid.

The “A” and “B” holes are joined at the selinoid end. If the selinoid is energized, they are separated. The “A” hole lines up with the hole in the motor and the “B” hole joins up with the other banjo bolt fitting.

The AN nipple on the top of the block has a “P” stamped next to it.

The motor has a “P” cast into the housing right next to the banjo bolt fitting that is directly connected through the blocks to this AN fitting. I assumed that giving it pilot pressure would do something. I figured the other banjo bolt fitting would be a return. It still could be. In my tests so far, I ran that return back to the resivour and blocked off the port on the side of the motor.

Today I put a pressure gauge on that port.

I ran the motor and even drove the machine a few feet and the pressure never moved. (Yes, I had the cut off open)

Not sure what my next step should be. I tested the selinoids. One works and one doesn’t. I guess I could hook the selinoid on one side and see what the effect is.

 

[WaterH]

Pulled the Vulcan inside the shop for the first time. Nice that it drove under its own power.

I need to do some work on it on cement floor. First job was swapping wheels. Since I learned that to make it turn, the four middle wheels need to be do the most work, I figure they need to be the same size and hold air good. When I got this, it was missing one wheel/tire. I found a matching wheel on Craigslist, but the tire was one inch bigger. It looks like I will probably be going to that bigger size for the rest of the tires, but for now, I’m just going to swap it to the back and lift it some.

These wheels suck for changing because it has lug bolts instead of studs. Who the hell came up with that idea?

Notice how the back wheel not only doesn’t have a caliper, but no disc either. I guess six brakes are enough? One thing that makes this job easier is the wheel lifts. I jacked the whole thing up and realized I can just lift each wheel. Of course that I have to listen to the Detroit roar in the garage.

This thing has some serious ground clearance when it’s jacked up.

It looks really wide. So I put a tape on it. 8’8” without mirrors. Seems like I heard 104” to go on the road. Is that for trailers? What if I’m flat towing it? I was thinking of putting a good hitch on it and Jack the four wheels in the back down. With the front wheels off the ground, it should tow like a trailer.

Got some other work planed for it in the next couple days. Stay tuned.

 

[AKnate]

Depends on the state, but most over 102" needs oversize permit

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Pulled the Vulcan inside the shop for the first time. Nice that it drove under its own power.

I need to do some work on it on cement floor. First job was swapping wheels. Since I learned that to make it turn, the four middle wheels need to be do the most work, I figure they need to be the same size and hold air good. When I got this, it was missing one wheel/tire. I found a matching wheel on Craigslist, but the tire was one inch bigger. It looks like I will probably be going to that bigger size for the rest of the tires, but for now, I’m just going to swap it to the back and lift it some.

These wheels suck for changing because it has lug bolts instead of studs. Who the hell came up with that idea?

Notice how the back wheel not only doesn’t have a caliper, but no disc either. I guess six brakes are enough? One thing that makes this job easier is the wheel lifts. I jacked the whole thing up and realized I can just lift each wheel. Of course that I have to listen to the Detroit roar in the garage.

This thing has some serious ground clearance when it’s jacked up.

It looks really wide. So I put a tape on it. 8’8” without mirrors. Seems like I heard 104” to go on the road. Is that for trailers? What if I’m flat towing it? I was thinking of putting a good hitch on it and Jack the four wheels in the back down. With the front wheels off the ground, it should tow like a trailer.

Got some other work planed for it in the next couple days. Stay tuned.

Try flat towing a skid steer or your mini-ex and get back to me on that. How do you plan on bypassing the hydraulic motors you will be spinning?

 

[WaterH]

Try flat towing a skid steer or your mini-ex and get back to me on that. How do you plan on bypassing the hydraulic motors you will be spinning?

It has a quick release pin on each side that disconnects the drive motors. Takes seconds to do.

 

[arse_sidewards]

I don't think it matters that you're over width, nobody is gonna pull that over to measure it.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Did it come to you as an oversize load or regular load?

 

[WaterH]

Did it come to you as an oversize load or regular load?

I came on a flat bed tow truck. It was crooked and hanged out both sides of the bed. That guy didn’t care about it.

 

[Bebop]

Just put some Grade 10 bolts through the hubs and use those as studs. Tack the heads so they don't spin.

 

[WaterH]

So this thing si terrible hard to get in to. It’s like you have to be Starsky and Hutch getting in to the general Lee every time. I was sick of it just working on it. If I really get it running good, I will build a new cab, but until then how about a T top?

Of course that off center sky light really makes the T weak.

I might make a weld in square for it, but the bolt in one works for now. I can stand on the T now. It makes it so much nicer to get in. I should have done it long ago.

Now if I could get a firebird sticker for the front, I could get in like the “Bandit”.

 

[WaterH]

Been doing some thinking on this. (I know, dangerous) I’ve come up with some theory’s and questions.

First, when I energize the selinoid on the pumps, the machine goes forward or backwards at a slow speed. Since I havnt done anything to the motors, they must be set at some default displacement. Since the pump doesn’t start until the selinoid is energized, it must be at default zero displacement.

When I energize the selinoid, the swash controlling the displacement goes to some angle. I had assumed it goes to max angle, but I don’t know that for fact. Since I don’t know how the gearing is setup, it could be at max and any additional speed would have to be obtained by changing the motor displacement. Or the selinoid could just tilt the swash angle slightly and the low oil flow would give a slow speed. I know the machine is capable of a lot more speed.

CarterKraft has mentioned a pulsed width controller on the selinoid would give me more control. I am assuming if I give the selinoid a constant 24 volts, that will give me the full angle of the swash and full displacement on the pump. If I installed one of those fancy controllers, it would give me a lesser angle, but not more because constant 24 volts is all there is. Is this assumption correct?

Since right now my immediate goal is more speed, I don’t need to investigate one of these controllers at this time. Does this make sense?

 

[ThePanzerFuhrer]

Take a solenoid off and give it 12v then 24 see if it sticks out further

 

[WaterH]

Take a solenoid off and give it 12v then 24 see if it sticks out further

What would that prove? Are you saying that if it sticks out less, the swash would go to more angle? Seems like it would be the opposite, but I won’t rule anything out.

That’s kind of like if the selinoid were to go in and out 20 times a second, would the swash go to more angle? I can’t see how that would work. Again, I won’t rule it out.

 

[Java230]

CarterKraft has mentioned a pulsed width controller on the selinoid would give me more control. I am assuming if I give the selinoid a constant 24 volts, that will give me the full angle of the swash and full displacement on the pump. If I installed one of those fancy controllers, it would give me a lesser angle, but not more because constant 24 volts is all there is. Is this assumption correct?

Yes at 24V constant it will be at full extension. The idea behind the PWM, is rapidly energizing and de energizing to be able to control stick out.