The car is the cheap part in racing. A Mason is about 1/4 of the yearly budget for a top TT team.
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Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?
- Thread starter SLOWPOKE693
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AgitatedPancake
Frobot
So none of you guys would innovate if you had an opportunity to field a decent budget U4 car at KOH, just run what everyone else is running. I see how it is 
TiTRD
Red Skull Member
Been to Geiser. 90% of their shop was race prep on their builds. Each truck had it's own bay and mechanic(s).
So none of you guys would innovate if you had an opportunity to field a decent budget U4 car at KOH, just run what everyone else is running. I see how it is
no one wants to be a pharr …
Beat95yj
Rolling 24/7
I just want a bomber with an LV3 and portals. I don’t really care if I come in last place.So none of you guys would innovate if you had an opportunity to field a decent budget U4 car at KOH, just run what everyone else is running. I see how it is
ridered3
Low Talent Wheelin
Innovation and racing something different is how Levi ended up across the pond for his newest 4400 racer. Basically said that Campbell cars were great but he needed to one up the competition instead of being on par with the competition.So none of you guys would innovate if you had an opportunity to field a decent budget U4 car at KOH, just run what everyone else is running. I see how it is
Unless you do something different from the next guy how can you be any better than the next guy running the exact same stuff? I'll bet that what is tried and true now and winning races won't even be able to grab a top 5 in 5yrs. You either innovate or get left behind.
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
Meh Pharr just needed more time, now he has it.
That would be sweet and unique. But considering the chassis already fits a V8, why opt for the V6?
Yeah see, that's awesome. What's that saying again, if you want to be as fast as everyone else, do what they do. If you want to be faster, do something different. But if the "future of KOH 4400 chassis car development" is just running everything that people already do, I guess we're just done innovating
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Ask Dave if you can run JRs OG Bronco next year.
ridered3
Low Talent Wheelin
That was basically his thinking as well.
I hate to say it but guys like Miller and Slawson will end up way behind the 8 ball if they don't start doing something different. SFA 4400 cars are not going to be competitive much longer.
Tech Tim
Your AD Here....
This thread has gone off the rails already so many times...
Guess we need to start all over and design three cars: One that is no expenses spared...because innovation, one that is innovative, but done on a budget and one that is like all the others, but somehow somebody will be the best driver KOH has ever seen.
Tech Tim
Your AD Here....
BUT... and there is always a big butt.... Miller and Slawson both build good cars, know how to prep and know how to drive and will be waiting for the day that all the top IFS cars break out and they'll scoop in for the win.
BUT... and there is always a big butt.... Miller and Slawson both build good cars, know how to prep and know how to drive and will be waiting for the day that all the top IFS cars break out and they'll scoop in for the win.
I wouldn't even show up to a race if I knew the only chance I had at winning was if the fast cars all broke. I race to win, not to be an also ran and I'm sure both of those guys feel the same way.
94toytruck
Eastcoast crawler
Miller placed what 5th this year? I remember them talking about how he has less power than most as well as a solid axle car. I'd have like to see Bylers run, they push those cars pretty hard. Given the circumstances though very understandable why they didn't. I don't think you can count Miller out but I think head to head the SA cars need a real good day vs. a few mistakes made racing a state of the art IFS car. It's hard to outrace technology unless it fails.
Beat95yj
Rolling 24/7
He and I have tried to figure out how I can get in that. I drove it years ago when JR owned it and it is one of my absolute favorite vehicles of all time.
Beat95yj
Rolling 24/7
Less weight, more centered, and possibly more clearance for a portal axle to swing it up in front of the crank pulley
vetteboy79
It's bent. #ttb
As crew chief and wiring guy for (what I think was) the first 4400 at KOH with a hot Coyote motor, from 2012-2015 and occasionally beyond, I can tell you how awesome it is when the car leaves the pits at WOT and everyone around turns to look wondering 'WTF is in that thing?'. JR4X knows what I mean
After we got a few bugs worked out, got it tuned, and on the dyno...we all had that same reaction, WTF did we build here
Then that engine got dropped into the well-known bright blue and wood-paneled Jeepster build, and between that and the SHO V6 in my own buggy, we made some good engine noises out at EJS 2016 as well.
The race car got a truck Coyote with a big fat blower on top, and that sounded awesome as well, but was never quite as cool IMO. It raced a few seasons like that and is now getting a built 7.3, should be back on the track next year.
All that to say, I agree, and would absolutely go that same route again vs anything GM.
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
This thread has gone off the rails already so many times...
Guess we need to start all over and design three cars: One that is no expenses spared...because innovation, one that is innovative, but done on a budget and one that is like all the others, but somehow somebody will be the best driver KOH has ever seen.
Haha yep yep. I will say I do appreciate both the unlimited budget innovation, and the budget minded innovation, I do think there are plenty of innovations that won't necessarily ramp the cost exponentially like others.
Solid reasoning, makes sense.
As crew chief and wiring guy for (what I think was) the first 4400 at KOH with a hot Coyote motor, from 2012-2015 and occasionally beyond, I can tell you how awesome it is when the car leaves the pits at WOT and everyone around turns to look wondering 'WTF is in that thing?'. JR4X knows what I mean
After we got a few bugs worked out, got it tuned, and on the dyno...we all had that same reaction, WTF did we build here
Then that engine got dropped into the well-known bright blue and wood-paneled Jeepster build, and between that and the SHO V6 in my own buggy, we made some good engine noises out at EJS 2016 as well.
The race car got a truck Coyote with a big fat blower on top, and that sounded awesome as well, but was never quite as cool IMO. It raced a few seasons like that and is now getting a built 7.3, should be back on the track next year.
All that to say, I agree, and would absolutely go that same route again vs anything GM.
Was that the LII car, where he cambered the front axle? I seem to vaguely recall that thing being ford powered, but don't recall the specifics
vetteboy79
It's bent. #ttb
Yes, and yes. I never drove it besides just moving it around in the pits, because (as I mentioned somewhere before) I couldn't physically drive it, Tim is a big dude and my feet were a good 6" away from the pedals with even just the lap belt on. Which did make the wiring a little easier to access though...
The cambered solid front axle was a fun experiment, and by all measure was a noticable improvement. I'm curious if anyone else has really messed with that idea. Between that and swapping the front diff from a spool to an aggressive LSD (Wavetrac if I remember right), that version of the car with the NA Coyote definitely had the most consistent success and Tim loved how it handled. He overalled several races at our local track (Line Mountain, home turf for Erik Miller and the Blylers).
I'd definitely be interested to know if anyone else is playing with solid axle camber. The same idea is part of what led me to go TTB iny buggy, more tire contact patch during cornering.
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
Fawk yeah, epic. I completely think the cambered solid axle has merit for racing. It doesn't count because I sold it before finishing, but I believed in the idea enough to build camber into the front axle on my 4800/4400 buggy about 10 years ago because of that rig. Absolutely an innovator, and I'm surprised it hasn't become more common too.
I added like 1.5 degrees IIRC, with a little fixture I made to use an alignment bar.
So none of you guys would innovate if you had an opportunity to field a decent budget U4 car at KOH, just run what everyone else is running. I see how it is
unfortunately a mil isnt enough to innovate at this point in the game and its a 2-3yr process to be reliable enough to be competitive.
if i only got a mil and still got a day job then im buying something fun and peeling out. if i got $10mil then its a different discussion.
levi going to europe to get a rock racer was one of the dumbest things ever.
vetteboy79
It's bent. #ttb
Fawk yeah, epic. I completely think the cambered solid axle has merit for racing. It doesn't count because I sold it before finishing, but I believed in the idea enough to build camber into the front axle on my 4800/4400 buggy about 10 years ago because of that rig. Absolutely an innovator, and I'm surprised it hasn't become more common too.
I added like 1.5 degrees IIRC, with a little fixture I made to use an alignment bar.
Ah yeah, I remember that thing...did it ever get finished?
We did around 3 degrees at each side, it wasn't really all that scientific, basically just a pie cut, ratchet strap to pull the kerf back, and weld it back up. Just had to make sure to keep it in line with the U joints.
Edit: if you zoom in on the right side, you can see the cut opened up through the lower knuckle brace. We did it on the existing axle housing just to try it, he later built a new front axle to more exact specs, but still kept the camber in it. Not sure if he kept it the same or went more/less, but it's in there.
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AgitatedPancake
Frobot
I finish welded and painted the chassis, but sold it as a roller. It went to a friend, though I haven't checked in for a while. I think it's on the backburner like it was for me
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
Sounds like the perfect time to get it back and finish what you started.
Problem is how much I’d do differently now hah. These days I’m leaning far more toward full independent + portals. I still love the shape of the chassis, but it would essentially all have to change to accommodate
Ya, I get were you are coming from there.
vetteboy79
It's bent. #ttb
Reminds me a bit of that Last Starfighter IFS build, anyone remember that thing? Last I knew it was out and wheeling, but I don't think it ever raced.
were you the one who was in the hospital dying but still modeling a huge cantilever setup or am i thinking of someone else?