yea its a screw pump
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?
- Thread starter SLOWPOKE693
- Start date
-
- Tags
- koh
yea its a screw pump
napier couldnt race it in australia because the motor was too big. harrell bought it as his first u4 and then get involved with paul.
started by trent fab, wyatt got it and had EZ doing a bunch of work on it. it was fast, but was a dezert car not a rock racer. wacker bought it because his penhall car was broke or something so he could race (go to get those series points), raced it a little and last i heard it was in texas doing some of the dezert races there.
"Black Betty" the 555/TTF Unicorn build
Bebop
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 26, 2020
- Member Number
- 1458
- Messages
- 4,847
Why it matters :
A blower manifold is a shitty single plane.
That's a great fucking way to drop pistons left and right.
Funny thing is, on this video exemple, 1 and 7 are on the same bank, so with only 2 O2's you'd be somewhat safe and I'd agree with your above statement.
But now imagine you have a dominator with no individual bank closed loop. and your particular engine has 5 and 8 that are shit, then good luck cleaning up the fueling on the fly.
At the moment for the trail rider guy that wants a safer install, Haltech is my go to. CAN Lambda FTW.
Motec and fancier options sure would be nice, but not necessarily needed.
Tech Tim
Your AD Here....
The idea behind the car was cutting-edge, but that's about it.
Lavezo doesn't show in the list of finishers, so DNF somewhere down the line?
ridered3
Low Talent Wheelin
I'm pretty sure that Dana Hale (U4 racer out of Texas) bought Nappyhairs old Penhall from the Harrell stable. tribal4krawler may be able to provide some more insight into Dana's plans with it.
Lavezo DNF'd at mile 96.
Last edited:
Not to derail this thread further but what the hell, maybe I could learn a thing or 2 from you
Could you not ID the shittiest cylinder on the dyno with individual 02's, then correlate the worst cylinder to what your in-car bank 02 is saying. From that info build your target AFR table around what the leanest cylinder is doing. Yeah you'd have some rich holes but at least it would be safe.
Sure its a crutch and you're leaving power on the table, but I can't see why that wouldn't be at least safe
Bebop
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 26, 2020
- Member Number
- 1458
- Messages
- 4,847
You'd wipe out the rest of the engine with fueling based off of one cylinder only.
You'd be pissing fuel in the other holes.
If you needed to add so much fuel to the lean cylinder(s) that it completely fucked off the rest of them, their is something very wrong with the engine or fuel system and it should probably be fixed. OEM's have run engines like that for years and none of them drown themselves in fuel because of a lean(ish) cylinder or two.
In a race? A season? I can’t see being a half point or so rich doing that. Maybe in 100,000 miles.
ridered3
Low Talent Wheelin
If you are referring to the one at the far left, that's Tim Hooper's Fuelwork 4400.
Ya, the last one to the left
ridered3
Low Talent Wheelin
I've gotten to check that one out in person a handful of times, but never noticed the camber before.
Bebop
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 26, 2020
- Member Number
- 1458
- Messages
- 4,847
Not under race conditions and boost.
Carbed blowers atomize the fuel before the rotors while EFI do it after ; there is quite a difference.
At 6500 on the single plane, you got 1 and 7 at 12 and 13.5.
Given the average of the other ones is about 11, I'm going to assume that's target AFR.
12/11= 1.09 (you need to add 9% to reach target for #1)
13.5/11 = 1.22 (you need to add 22% to reach target to #7)
10% is the absolute max I want to see a closed loop correction for a single event.
22% of added fuel, the engine isn't running right anymore. (If your fuel map is off by 22% you need another tuner).
To further my point, this is only a basic calculation at 6500rpm. Do the same at 3500rpm when 1 is at 15.5
On any Holley setup you can do individual cylinder corrections. So you could tune the fuel offset, now you're mitigating this issue. Awesome.
Now you could get even closer by letting the close loop based of a bank wideband do its thing and help average the cylinders of said bank for the last few % and have a pretty good setup, but because of Holley magic, you can't.
Holley, even with a dual wideband setup (which will add $1100 to the ECU cost and force you to implement a giant brick of electronics somewhere in the car) only will implement an across the board fuel offset. No bank to bank modifier.
If cylinder 3 needs help and O2 bank 1 is lean, you're about to dump the extra fuel in all cylinders.
With Haltech (or any OEM ECU for that matter) you could offset only the bank that needs help.
Now say you're a big baller and you want to implement one wideband per cylinder with active closed loop for each cylinder, it's time for some Motec (and someone else cause this shit is above my head).
I wonder how well the Toyota 1.6l G16 3 cylinder engine would do.
Some Aussies have increased output from 257hp to 740hp
Some Aussies have increased output from 257hp to 740hp
Why are we running a retarded single plane intake and EFI? Anyone who is building for power and monitoring all 8 O2 sensors isn't going to use a stupid intake like that with EFI. 
Good points and thank you for the explanation.Not under race conditions and boost.
Carbed blowers atomize the fuel before the rotors while EFI do it after ; there is quite a difference.
At 6500 on the single plane, you got 1 and 7 at 12 and 13.5.
Given the average of the other ones is about 11, I'm going to assume that's target AFR.
12/11= 1.09 (you need to add 9% to reach target for #1)
13.5/11 = 1.22 (you need to add 22% to reach target to #7)
10% is the absolute max I want to see a closed loop correction for a single event.
22% of added fuel, the engine isn't running right anymore. (If your fuel map is off by 22% you need another tuner).
To further my point, this is only a basic calculation at 6500rpm. Do the same at 3500rpm when 1 is at 15.5
On any Holley setup you can do individual cylinder corrections. So you could tune the fuel offset, now you're mitigating this issue. Awesome.
Now you could get even closer by letting the close loop based of a bank wideband do its thing and help average the cylinders of said bank for the last few % and have a pretty good setup, but because of Holley magic, you can't.
Holley, even with a dual wideband setup (which will add $1100 to the ECU cost and force you to implement a giant brick of electronics somewhere in the car) only will implement an across the board fuel offset. No bank to bank modifier.
If cylinder 3 needs help and O2 bank 1 is lean, you're about to dump the extra fuel in all cylinders.
With Haltech (or any OEM ECU for that matter) you could offset only the bank that needs help.
Now say you're a big baller and you want to implement one wideband per cylinder with active closed loop for each cylinder, it's time for some Motec (and someone else cause this shit is above my head).
However, if I saw a 1.5 delta cylinder to cylinder I’d stop right there and pull that garbage single plane blower setup. Especially if I was a baller. And really that setup doesn’t belong on a serious race car
I fully agree if I’m having to do more than 10% fuel correction I need to work on my VE. But if the POS induction system is 22% off to start with, then yeah the only way to solve that garbage is individual cylinder fuel mapping
Bebop
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 26, 2020
- Member Number
- 1458
- Messages
- 4,847
Because that's exaclty what all blower intakes are. A shitty single plane :Why are we running a retarded single plane intake and EFI? Anyone who is building for power and monitoring all 8 O2 sensors isn't going to use a stupid intake like that with EFI.
That was my point all along when trying to explain why we don't see more blower setups and why Holley isn't really favored by high end race engine builders, tuners.
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2020
- Member Number
- 1745
- Messages
- 485
ridered3
Low Talent Wheelin
tribal4krawler thanks for the clarification and hate to read that on his mom.
Since we are way off topic already, let's put this in our imaginary build and peel out.......
Provience
Kill!
all them pulleys and it doesn't even come with a belt 
all them pulleys and it doesn't even come with a belt
He lost the belt routing sticker and can't figure out how to put it back on.
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
Mason factory walkthrough. Super interesting on its own, but time stamped to some cool views of their portals.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
Because that's exaclty what all blower intakes are. A shitty single plane :
That was my point all along when trying to explain why we don't see more blower setups and why Holley isn't really favored by high end race engine builders, tuners.
I have no dog in this fight, but what about a procharger style SC? Allows whatever style intake you choose.
Bebop
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 26, 2020
- Member Number
- 1458
- Messages
- 4,847
Absolutely.
Adds a lot of complexity and takes a lot of room too (you still need an intercooler somewhere in the intake track).
As long as there isn't one of those shitty carb hats involved.
triple_fcked
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2023
- Member Number
- 7072
- Messages
- 25
Is there a point in doing a pro charger on a custom race car instead of just doing a turbo? Isn’t the point of a centrifugal supercharger is that it’s relatively “bolt on” and you don’t have to rework the exhaust?
gt1guy
Apparently a racist
Heat soak will get you.