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Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

Is there a point in doing a pro charger on a custom race car instead of just doing a turbo? Isn’t the point of a centrifugal supercharger is that it’s relatively “bolt on” and you don’t have to rework the exhaust?

Centrifugal blowers give you relatively instant boost, pulley changes are simple and yes, most are bolt on. But you still have to match the exhaust to the engine. You still have to build the engine for boost. Nothing is free.

You can do some wild shit with turbos too. I think it was the old unlimited group C rally cars that had volume tanks tied into the system. Dumping a bit of fuel into the cylinder on the exhaust stroke just before the exhaust valve closes allows the fuel to ignite behind the valve and spool up the turbo faster.

None of this belongs in a off road race car though.

Now a N/A IR intake, monitoring all 8 cylinders with the right ECU is an awesome solution for just about anything
 
Centrifugal blowers give you relatively instant boost,
Positive displacement blowers build boost faster than centrifugal. Not a fan of belt driven turbos, there are to many compromises in the drivetrain.
 
Too easy to play the Horsepower war. Playing the driveline and Tire loss is wayyy tougher but seems more productive.

I would like to know what a race UTV Loss is to the wheels. Red Line pegged the Ultra4 cars about 30% loss a couple years ago. I see the UTV tires as pretty special with not much tread as the wrap around tread is necessary because of the general IFS geometry in turns and ruts. I think they are designed to minimize loss also. With the engine/trans/diff combined, you would hope efficiency was considered. ( I wonder if the UTV HP numbers are dyno'd at the crank or at the diff? I see new dyno's for the large rigs are at the wheel now. So excluding the tire. I have heard of 4wd dynos, wheel driven reporting 37%ish loss from engine dyno. "But two different dyno's." (Depends what you want to hear) All of this is probably answered in Automtive class 120 but I missed it. If something is not marketed as more efficient than xxxxx, then it probably isn't. And the compromise is probably strength.and rotating weight.

In the early days of Ultra4 a go-to tire was the big Maxxis with huge side biters. Shannon put them up against a "normal BFG" and the Maxxis combination lost 75 HP. They were a big fan that had to be driven. Also bias ply as I remember. But radial layups might not be the ultimate solution as you loose sidewall strength, and they squirm. Why they seem to track well on pavement. But easier to tuck under when turned or turning out of a rut, etc. Higher pressures in Ultra4, to save from rim cuts, helps all of this.

In retrospect to $20-40,000 transmissions, transfer cases, differentials. HP is cheap............
 
same problem with anything boosted

A system running a air/air intercooler before the boost gets to the engine doesn't have heat soak issues. It's not a closed system. The liquid filled closed systems do.

Corvettes have heat soak issues in a small number of laps on a track day. You can mitigate it by increasing the radiator size for the intercooler, then the packaging game begins.


Positive displacement blowers build boost faster than centrifugal. Not a fan of belt driven turbos, there are to many compromises in the drivetrain.

If they already can't keep a dry sump or serpentine belt on the engine, adding another belt doesn't sound like a great idea.
 
A system running a air/air intercooler before the boost gets to the engine doesn't have heat soak issues. It's not a closed system. The liquid filled closed systems do.

Corvettes have heat soak issues in a small number of laps on a track day. You can mitigate it by increasing the radiator size for the intercooler, then the packaging game begins.




If they already can't keep a dry sump or serpentine belt on the engine, adding another belt doesn't sound like a great idea.
VNT turbo is the way.
 
Spoke to one of the quicker driver at KOH and he said that this year 600hp was enough as the desert sections weren't long enough that you would need more power. He said the biggest problem with trophy truck big block engines is to manage the power and not break anything because it''s so easy with 1000hp on tap.
 
I thought watts link had fallen out of favor because reasons. :confused:

I bet sombody thinks they reinvented the wheel building that not knowing its been tried and off road isn't the place for it. We used a watts link setup in every circle track car we built instead of a panhard bar and had a way more consistent setup vs a panhard bar. Set it and forget it.
 
and off road isn't the place for it.
I looked into it 5+yr ago and was never really able to dig up a satisfactory reason why. Roll center location isn't terrible. Packaging can be sub par but in very different ways than a 4-link so it could be fine for some people.
 
I bet sombody thinks they reinvented the wheel building that not knowing its been tried and off road isn't the place for it. We used a watts link setup in every circle track car we built instead of a panhard bar and had a way more consistent setup vs a panhard bar. Set it and forget it.
If that’s the one in the back of a Nissan, it has been tested extensively. I don’t think I would use it in a race car, however
 
If that’s the one in the back of a Nissan, it has been tested extensively. I don’t think I would use it in a race car, however
IDK if Nissan ever used it but Dodge Durango is the quintessential example.

Screen Shot 2024-02-17 at 8.50.14 PM.png
 
I think the truck in 2bbs post is a crawler, and it also looks like a full size. The tire choice and SFA don't exactly scream desert truck.
 
So why don't they work in off road cars again? Something about roll center IIRC
The Rally Fighters started out with watts links. They handled funny and broke regularly. Look at the angles of the arms at full droop. Lots of leverage. They switched to a triangulated 4 link and things got much better. It still handled kinda funny, but at least it wasn't killing parts.
 
Somebody put it in a frontier pre-runner. Exactly the same design pictured. He’s been running around the southern California deserts for six months or longer.
The one Scarbo built ?
 
@wheeleveryweekend on the gram, it was a project he was working on for quite a while.

He ended up using a billet double shear bell crank for the center, and it seems like it’s holding up so far, well enough that the truck is breaking just about everything else lol
 
Seems like the "Normal" watts link is center mounted at the diff. The first one mentiond would rotate around the top of the pedestal so the diff would swing out from under the truck on articulation. More to it than just centering the diff. Triangulated 4 link lets you play with the anti's and other items, with no bind. Best thing to happen to offroad.
 
Land Rover Discovery 2s had a watts linkage as well, combined with rear radius arms:
1708244229288.jpeg


They seemed to work pretty well in all conditions, not quite desert racing though of course.
 
So why don't they work in off road cars again? Something about roll center IIRC
Because people can’t plan ahead, piss poor execution like that one you quoted above. That thing is trash as is and would fail in very short order if it got ran through some whoops. I think they could be made to live if someone like Joe Thompson built it.

Packaging in a 4400 car or TT is usually tight in that area. Most people with big ass engines need big ass fuel tanks. The area above in front of and behind the axle on a TT or Pro4 is almost always all fuel tank. Rear engine 4400’s the engine is right there competing for space.

Edit. The gold standard in inches of wheel travel back there is 35” inches in the unlimited cars. You’d have to get everything just right to not over angle link ends at both ends of droop and compression.
 
Edit. The gold standard in inches of wheel travel back there is 35” inches in the unlimited cars. You’d have to get everything just right to not over angle link ends at both ends of droop and compression.

The 4 bar system allows that centering point to be moved further behind the diff....and make room for the tanks. A hinge point.. like a uniball.
 
JR4X brings up a good point, my uppers stop just below my fuel cell in my trail car. The packaging to fit a Watts link like that would make life pretty difficult.
 
JR4X brings up a good point, my uppers stop just below my fuel cell in my trail car. The packaging to fit a Watts link like that would make life pretty difficult.
Follow those top bars out and you will know the centering hinge point. which can be moved vertically (Usuall at the frame) for the anti's. never played with any of this as a IRS guy. BUT....Now thinking IRS is not the best solution either....because 4 bar is so good.with better center ground clearance.
 
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