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Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

SLOWPOKE693

SLOWPOKE693

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After watching yesterday's race, seeing where the golf carts placed (7th & 8th place) and hearing Dave Cole talk with RG about how chassis builders should be paying close attention to what those Can-Ams did, do you think there will be a push to build much smaller and lighter 4400 cars in the future for KOH?
 
I think it is hard to say. Money will still be the big factor as well as Talent. I imagine the top 5 cars are all $300k plus. Top 4 of 5 finishers are former Kings. Talent will be a big role as well as the cars holding up. Top guys are all getting flats from pushing so hard. Others are saying they did not have a flat all weekend. I can say for myself, flats are usually driver caused. My last two EMC races, I had one flat each, both in the desert from hitting stuff. In the rocks they held up, but I am better in the rocks. Looks like Nitto and BFG took the top 5 or so places.

I see more portals in the future but I am not sure they are needed on SA rigs. MM and Bomber have that figured out. UFO cars made a good showing. Can Am is throwing a lot out there but in the end, the chassis and suspension is all after market. I heard it said that you had to put another $150k into a side by side to make it up to par. They need to figure out the belt situation in those things, seemed everyone had to change one???

Dave said a solid axle rear and IFS front was his choice. Top two were. The leaders one the race in the desert with the speeds they showed.

I really think they need to keep the rigs in the canons. I saw too many people taking by-passes and going around the big rocks that made those trails so famous. I know they still had to do rocks, but watching them go on a goat trail for 50-100 yards around rocks was just wrong. I really thought Jason was going to get more penalties for VCP's and missing them with all the short cuts I saw him take, desert and rocks. I know it is about pre-running but in the drivers meeting he said to stay in the rocks.

Sorry for the rant...
 
They just need enough motor to spin those tires.

With all the developments in engine stuff over the last few years there is no reason people can't be looking at a lighter power plant which equates to a lighter smaller rig.
 
If you look historically at the entire racing world, manufacturers have consistently changed the nature of a racecar by lightening it, increasing horsepower, changing suspension design.

There's no reason that couldn't happen here.

The biggest obstacle is money. There's simply no reason to have a multi-million dollar designed car here. So whatever happens, will happen on a budget, albeit, a bigger budget than I can afford
 
matzell said:
I think it is hard to say. Money will still be the big factor as well as Talent. I imagine the top 5 cars are all $300k plus. Top 4 of 5 finishers are former Kings. Talent will be a big role as well as the cars holding up. Top guys are all getting flats from pushing so hard. Others are saying they did not have a flat all weekend. I can say for myself, flats are usually driver caused. My last two EMC races, I had one flat each, both in the desert from hitting stuff. In the rocks they held up, but I am better in the rocks. Looks like Nitto and BFG took the top 5 or so places.

I see more portals in the future but I am not sure they are needed on SA rigs. MM and Bomber have that figured out. UFO cars made a good showing. Can Am is throwing a lot out there but in the end, the chassis and suspension is all after market. I heard it said that you had to put another $150k into a side by side to make it up to par. They need to figure out the belt situation in those things, seemed everyone had to change one???

Dave said a solid axle rear and IFS front was his choice. Top two were. The leaders one the race in the desert with the speeds they showed.

I really think they need to keep the rigs in the canons. I saw too many people taking by-passes and going around the big rocks that made those trails so famous. I know they still had to do rocks, but watching them go on a goat trail for 50-100 yards around rocks was just wrong. I really thought Jason was going to get more penalties for VCP's and missing them with all the short cuts I saw him take, desert and rocks. I know it is about pre-running but in the drivers meeting he said to stay in the rocks.

Sorry for the rant...
Click to expand...

3yrs ago a golf cart finished 12th in the big race and everyone wrote it off as luck. Last year they put one in the top 10 (8th) and everyone wrote it off as a fluke. This year they put two golf carts in the top 10 and in the process beat every single IFS/IRS no expense spared 4400 car that was entered into the race. It wasn't luck, wasn't a fluke and now it's hard to deny that a golf cart can be competitive against custom built rigs costing 5x as much at KOH.

They can change belts faster than most 4400 can change a tire so I don't think the belt argument holds any water.

Every 4400 car out there is built with an "aftermarket chassis and suspension" what is your point? Are the golf carts not allowed to do the same? This is an unlimited class after all.....

I race short course with Cody & Hunter Miller and have had extensive conversations with them about their KOH cars and I can assure you that there is alot more Can-Am in those cars than what everyone wants to believe. Both cars on the podium yesterday were based off factory X3's that S3 Powersports then modified to suite KOH style racing. The chassis were not one off customs like a lot of people want to believe. Hunter sent me these pictures last year of their fresh KOH chassis and it's clearly obvious that they are not one offs, just modified stock chassis.....

IMG_4167.jpg


IMG_4158.jpg


IMG_4159.jpg



Compare these to a stock X3 chassis and tell me again that it's a full custom chassis. :shaking:
 
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Lilyota said:
They just need enough motor to spin those tires.

With all the developments in engine stuff over the last few years there is no reason people can't be looking at a lighter power plant which equates to a lighter smaller rig.
Click to expand...

The Can-Ams that were running the 4400 race were right around 500hp and are dead nuts reliable. I've yet to see one of these guys have engine problems. I would think that with another 100hp or maybe less? that those golf carts would be able to keep up with the IFS/IRS 4400's in the desert.
 
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SLOWPOKE693 said:
3yrs ago a golf cart finished 12th in the big race and everyone wrote it off as luck. Last year they put one in the top 10 (8th) and everyone wrote it off as a fluke. This year they put two golf carts in the top 10 and in the process beat every single IFS/IRS no expense spared 4400 car that was entered into the race. It wasn't luck, wasn't a fluke and now it's hard to deny that a golf cart can be competitive against custom built rigs costing 5x as much at KOH.

They can change belts faster than most 4400 can change a tire so I don't think the belt argument holds any water.

Every 4400 car out there is built with an "aftermarket chassis and suspension" what is your point? Are the golf carts not allowed to do the same? This is an unlimited class after all.....

I race short course with Cody & Hunter Miller and have had extensive conversations with them about their KOH cars and I can assure you that there is alot more Can-Am in those cars than what everyone wants to believe. Both cars on the podium yesterday were based off factory X3's that S3 Powersports then modified to suite KOH style racing. The chassis were not one off customs like a lot of people want to believe. Hunter sent me these pictures last year of their fresh KOH chassis and it's clearly obvious that they are not one offs, just modified stock chassis.....

IMG_4167.jpg


IMG_4158.jpg


IMG_4159.jpg



Compare these to a stock X3 chassis and tell me again that it's a full custom chassis. :shaking:
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Can Am has done a great job with their cars. I mentioned belts because they still have tires to deal with, but being lighter they may not damage tires much. I know guys wheeling Jeeps on those 35" Roxzillas. I guess in the end, a golf cart may still be way cheaper than a full on 4400 car. I have a now older 2014 4500 car and I know what it cost to build that.
 
Slawson was in the top 5 unofficially. A solid axle car that as far as I’m concerned is 10 year old design.

KOH is about the right amount of skill, luck and preparation.

SxSs keep getting bigger, look at a new RZR 1000 vs the old 900xp that used to be the top dog. They have almost come full circle back to full-size buggies/sand cars.
 
I mentioned in the koh thread that I'd be curious to see a SxS sized rig built from scratch. Maybe using a 4cyl automotive engine or maybe just use sxs parts. Solid axle f&r would be interesting, but realistically, ifs and solid rear seems ideal.

I heard someone mentioned that a solid rear axle yamaha yxz exists. I wonder if that would be plausible with a can am? Would be pretty difficult with where the engine is without making the wb long af.

Say a similar drivetrain to the current moon buggies, small turbo 4 cyl, 904, D300? Again, maybe the sxs stuff beats it on power to wieght.

Even if no one really goes that direction, I do wonder if some of the cars will end up with a narrower track width? Anyone know what the ufo and Jason's width is vs Lauren/Vaughn and some of the other spaceships?
 
YotaAtieToo said:
I mentioned in the koh thread that I'd be curious to see a SxS sized rig built from scratch. Maybe using a 4cyl automotive engine or maybe just use sxs parts. Solid axle f&r would be interesting, but realistically, ifs and solid rear seems ideal.

I heard someone mentioned that a solid rear axle yamaha yxz exists. I wonder if that would be plausible with a can am? Would be pretty difficult with where the engine is without making the wb long af.

Say a similar drivetrain to the current moon buggies, small turbo 4 cyl, 904, D300? Again, maybe the sxs stuff beats it on power to wieght.

Even if no one really goes that direction, I do wonder if some of the cars will end up with a narrower track width? Anyone know what the ufo and Jason's width is vs Lauren/Vaughn and some of the other spaceships?
Click to expand...

Some of those new IFS/IRS 4400 cars are stupidly wide IMO. I get that they build them that way for maximum suspension travel but at what point does it become to wide to be competitive in the rock sections? Blasting across the desert at 100+ mph is cool but if you spend all the time saved in the desert fighting your way through the rock sections is any of that fancy suspension really an advantage?
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
Some of those new IFS/IRS 4400 cars are stupidly wide IMO. I get that they build them that way for maximum suspension travel but at what point does it become to wide to be competitive in the rock sections? Blasting across the desert at 100+ mph is cool but if you spend all the time saved in the desert fighting your way through the rock sections is any of that fancy suspension really an advantage?
Click to expand...

I think that some people get hyper focused on going faster faster faster in the desert and just getting through the rocks. But on a course like this year, it almost seems like the other way around. Everyone is pretty damn fast in the desert, but one little hang up in the rocks can cost so much time.
 
I'd love to see a UFO car and one of the Miller's Can-Ams sitting next to each other for size reference. Those UFO cars look tiny compared to most of the other 4400's I've seen them near and I'm thinking the size of the car, along with the IFS/SA design have alot to do with how well they do at KOH. :smokin:
 
YotaAtieToo said:
I mentioned in the koh thread that I'd be curious to see a SxS sized rig built from scratch. Maybe using a 4cyl automotive engine or maybe just use sxs parts. Solid axle f&r would be interesting, but realistically, ifs and solid rear seems ideal.

I heard someone mentioned that a solid rear axle yamaha yxz exists. I wonder if that would be plausible with a can am? Would be pretty difficult with where the engine is without making the wb long af.

Say a similar drivetrain to the current moon buggies, small turbo 4 cyl, 904, D300? Again, maybe the sxs stuff beats it on power to wieght.

Even if no one really goes that direction, I do wonder if some of the cars will end up with a narrower track width? Anyone know what the ufo and Jason's width is vs Lauren/Vaughn and some of the other spaceships?
Click to expand...
In the interview I saw of Tom Wayes, He talked about how his ifs is narrower than most so it works in the rocks better. I think it is a bit shorter too. I always thought the 110-114" wb was about right, UFO's appear to be quite long?
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
I'd love to see a UFO car and one of the Miller's Can-Ams sitting next to each other for size reference. Those UFO cars look tiny compared to most of the other 4400's I've seen them near and I'm thinking the size of the car, along with the IFS/SA design have alot to do with how well they do at KOH. :smokin:
Click to expand...

What's interesting is that Marcos and I think now JP have that crazy IRS with the diff on the pass side cv axle. The rumor is that they went to Joe Thompson and asked for a v8 sxs on 40s :laughing:

I think rauls success over the other 2 is pure driver. I don't think JP will ever keep a car together enough to win, he's too cocky:laughing: I'm not sure about Marcos though.

The 4ws on the lamBRO is an interesting idea to help with the shear size of it in the rocks. Although, it obviously hasn't worked out :laughing:
 
matzell said:
In the interview I saw of Tom Wayes, He talked about how his ifs is narrower than most so it works in the rocks better. I think it is a bit shorter too. I always thought the 110-114" wb was about right, UFO's appear to be quite long?
Click to expand...

The one with Trevor? I saw that also and it really made me realize how damn wide some of the other cars are.
 
Speaking of the sxs's, we're any running the new 37 roxxila? The 35s were huge (like the same size as my 38 creepy crawlers :laughing:) so I was hoping to see the 37s. They're probably damn near the same size as the 40" Treps and half the wieght :smokin:
 
YotaAtieToo said:
The 4ws on the lamBRO is an interesting idea to help with the shear size of it in the rocks. Although, it obviously hasn't worked out :laughing:
Click to expand...

Neither the GenRight car nor the Lazer Nut car are all that impressive when you look at their finishing results. While those cars are probably the most technologically advanced out of all the 4400's they don't seem to hold up to race conditions very well.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Speaking of the sxs's, we're any running the new 37 roxxila? The 35s were huge (like the same size as my 38 creepy crawlers :laughing:) so I was hoping to see the 37s. They're probably damn near the same size as the 40" Treps and half the wieght :smokin:
Click to expand...

The Miller's had Hess Motorsports make them a couple sets of one off billet beadlock wheels for the 37" Rockzillas that they were planning to run this year but it looked like both cars were on 35s yesterday. I'd have to assume that the performance they lost running 37s over the 35s wasn't worth it.
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
Neither the GenRight car nor the Lazer Nut car are all that impressive when you look at their finishing results. While those cars are probably the most technologically advanced out of all the 4400's they don't seem to hold up to race conditions very well.
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I totally agree, but also neither are driven by drivers on the level of the top guys, imo.

I wonder if you put Jason in them if the results would be different?
 
For KOH, I think smaller, lighter, better visibility, and slightly less engine are going to be where things head. But most of the big names are building for ultra4 not for KOH. Big HP, big tires, and big cars are going to be where things stay, the shortcourse and desert races drive it.

I mentioned it in the other thread, but I'll say it here as well, solid axles still have a good bit of development room left, especially the front ends. But the money and interest isn't there. The new IFS/IRS stuff is seems like the step from leafs to links. Tech was/is still improving, but not nearly as much as it could be.

Not to lessen the achievement of finishing, but I don't think the results tell the full story on the golf carts. I don't recall them mentioning having any large mechanical issues, but their times are closer to bigger cars that had issues.
 
I don't think portals and solid axles are a good mix in U4. They raise you COG, add a shit ton of unsprung weight and the leverage they have on the king pins/ball joints and axle tubes in cases of side loading would be quite the feat to overcome without adding even more unsprung weight to the axles in the form of bigger, stronger housings and tubes and massive C's up front to handle the leverage. All of that sounds like a step in the wrong direction if you ask me...
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
I don't think portals and solid axles are a good mix in U4. They raise you COG, add a shit ton of unsprung weight and the leverage they have on the king pins/ball joints and axle tubes in cases of side loading would be quite the feat to overcome without adding even more unsprung weight to the axles in the form of bigger, stronger housings and tubes and massive C's up front to handle the leverage. All of that sounds like a step in the wrong direction if you ask me...
Click to expand...
The weight would be an obstacle, but I don't think the added forces would be. I could well be wrong, but the current housings and C's don't seem to be on the ragged edge of failure, and likely have a fair bit of room left to increase abuse.
 
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