Best stock class 4600/4500 Base

[Yotota]

sorry for my snarkiness.

selling a company to buy into your program with no track record is nearly impossible. the thing that people fail to realize is that the company wants a return on their investment, which means attending shows/events, social media presence, and usually a certain number for races. a couple hundred bucks of product usually costs significantly more in the long run. big name teams develop relationships over many years, often for free in the beginning, then with a discount on product, eventually if you are good and prove your worth they will write checks.

I could have been clearer - I wasn't envisioning a few guys calling a company and saying "we want free shit". If a team was well organized, incorporated, funding secured, registered and entered to race, had a vehicle and enough knowledge and skills to make a real attempt at racing, it wouldn't be unreasonable to approach a company for a product only partnership. A robust contract guaranteeing certain amounts of visibility/banners/stickers/social media/etc would be pretty low risk for the vendor. (I guess I am a bit familiar with these partnerships from other industries).

 

['84 Bronco II]

So I made a list a while back of all the 4600 class winners, their vehicles, and tires just for shits and grins and figured I would share it here:

Year	Driver	Vehicle	Tires
2012	John Currie	LJ	Falken Wildpeak A/T
2013	Matthew Peterson	WJ	Toyo M/T
2014	Erik Miller	ZJ	Nitto Trail Grappler
2015	Matthew Peterson	WJ	Toyo M/T
2016	Brian Behrend	XJ	BFG KM2
2017	Ben Varozza	TJ	Falken M/T
2018	Jesse Combes	JK (2 door)	BFG KM2
2019	Justin Reece	'85 Toyota Xtra cab Pick up	Maxxis Trepador Radial
2020	Jesse Haines	Roxor	Maxxis Razr M/T

So, some observations amongst the winners:

• All Jeeps except for Justin's Toyota (The Roxor is just a diesel CJ7 )
• All under 106" Wheel base except Justin's Toyota (112"), three of which were 96" and under
• The widest body vehicle to win (WJ) was ~72" wide, all the rest were under 70" wide
• All solid front axle
• 6 out of 9 were coil and link front and rear, and only two were leaf sprung all around

 

[Provience]

huh, so the widest vehicle at 72" (the WJ) is also the only vehicle with multiple wins.

Guess the narrow track width isn't that big of a deal. Can i get a WOOOOOOO!!!

Thanks rick



pro for the ford: Solid axles and coil springs

 

[Provience]

So I made a list a while back of all the 4600 class winners, their vehicles, and tires just for shits and grins and figured I would share it here:

Year	Driver	Vehicle	Tires
2012	John Currie	LJ	Falken Wildpeak A/T
2013	Matthew Peterson	WJ	Toyo M/T
2014	Erik Miller	ZJ	Nitto Trail Grappler
2015	Matthew Peterson	WJ	Toyo M/T
2016	Brian Behrend	XJ	BFG KM2
2017	Ben Varozza	TJ	Falken M/T
2018	Jesse Combes	JK (2 door)	BFG KM2
2019	Justin Reece	'85 Toyota Xtra cab Pick up	Maxxis Trepador Radial
2020	Jesse Haines	Roxor	Maxxis Razr M/T

So, some observations amongst the winners:

• All Jeeps except for Justin's Toyota (The Roxor is just a diesel CJ7 )
• All under 106" Wheel base except Justin's Toyota (112"), three of which were 96" and under
• The widest body vehicle to win (WJ) was ~72" wide, all the rest were under 70" wide
• All solid front axle
• 6 out of 9 were coil and link front and rear, and only two were leaf sprung all around

that's a neat list. is the Side by Side running in the 4600 class again this year?

never noticed that even the tire it was on was named after as SxS even

obviously building to win is different than building to race. yeah yeah, cue all the "if you ain't racin' to win, ya ain't racing!" but hell, the roxor damn near lost to a few cars until they took themselves out, same with nearly every race every year. fewer years where the winner dominated the whole race without issues, but it does happen.

 

['84 Bronco II]

that's a neat list. is the Side by Side running in the 4600 class again this year?

never noticed that even the tire it was on was named after as SxS even

obviously building to win is different than building to race. yeah yeah, cue all the "if you ain't racin' to win, ya ain't racing!" but hell, the roxor damn near lost to a few cars until they took themselves out, same with nearly every race every year. fewer years where the winner dominated the whole race without issues, but it does happen.

My point is, do you see anything that remotely resembles a Superduty on that list? Has a fullsize ever even finished the race? Serious question since I know people have entered fullsizes in the past. Lonestar Fab is running an FSB this year (4680), so we'll see how he does.

Honestly I don't think the Roxor is a very good platform and the only reason Jesse is running one is because of the partnership with Mahindra. He has stated multiple times that he didn't expect to win, and didn't even realize he won until Dave Cole told him he did. I think Jesse and the portals are what made the Roxor a winner; both things that could be applied to any other vehicle. The only thing a Roxor really has going for it over anything else is that it gets crazy good fuel economy racing apparently. I forgot what the exact figures were, but I think Jesse said it got pretty close to 10 MPG in last years race

 

[Provience]

My point is, do you see anything that remotely resembles a Superduty on that list? Has a fullsize ever even finished the race? Serious question since I know people have entered fullsizes in the past. Lonestar Fab is running an FSB this year (4680), so we'll see how he does.

Honestly I don't think the Roxor is a very good platform and the only reason Jesse is running one is because of the partnership with Mahindra. He has stated multiple times that he didn't expect to win, and didn't even realize he won until Dave Cole told him he did. I think Jesse and the portals are what made the Roxor a winner; both things that could be applied to any other vehicle. The only thing a Roxor really has going for it over anything else is that it gets crazy good fuel economy racing apparently. I forgot what the exact figures were, but I think Jesse said it got pretty close to 10 MPG in last years race

driver plus the axles, but also several people who lead the race for a while took themselves out. never discount the advantage of the competitor failing

the WJ is basically a fullsize I think i've maybe seen 1 fullsize entered before obviously i don't pay too much attention if multiple people have over the years.

10 mpg isn't worth it with a max speed of 55mph for a very short stretch in the desert. i'm pretty sure that was what he topped out at, downhill, with the helicopter pushing it

4600 is a whole lot of race what you trail ride for most of the field. yeah, there are a few cars that only get run for the race, but that's the competitive minority

 

['84 Bronco II]

driver plus the axles, but also several people who lead the race for a while took themselves out. never discount the advantage of the competitor failing

the WJ is basically a fullsize I think i've maybe seen 1 fullsize entered before obviously i don't pay too much attention if multiple people have over the years.

10 mpg isn't worth it with a max speed of 55mph for a very short stretch in the desert. i'm pretty sure that was what he topped out at, downhill, with the helicopter pushing it

4600 is a whole lot of race what you trail ride for most of the field. yeah, there are a few cars that only get run for the race, but that's the competitive minority

Hey, the Roxor is a powerhouse relative to the Toyota guys It topped out at 60 MPH if I recall correctly, but it wasn't for lack of power. With the Portals, he's running an effective axle ratio of 7.88:1, and the motor hits redline at that speed with 35" tires. I think he said it is making ~125-150HP and ~250Ft.Lbs. and that was limited by the clutch.

 

[Provience]

Hey, the Roxor is a powerhouse relative to the Toyota guys It topped out at 60 MPH if I recall correctly, but it wasn't for lack of power. With the Portals, he's running an effective axle ratio of 7.88:1, and the motor hits redline at that speed with 35" tires. I think he said it is making ~125-150HP and ~250Ft.Lbs. and that was limited by the clutch.

which is why a 6.7 or 7.4 would be a far superior platform to start with 250 ftlbs on the starter

 

[arse_sidewards]

Jessie won in the Roxor? I thought he got taken out when the suspension ate the crank pulley at full bump. Or was that 2yr ago?

I agree that Jessie + portals will make any vehicle a ton more competitive but I don't see any reason. Which then begs the question if a good driver and good axles make a small noncompetitive shitbox competitive why can't they do the same for a big shitbox?

We've all seen videos of fullsizes wheeling Johnson valley. Granted they're usually running bigger than 35" tires but there's a hell of a lot of buggies that are pushing into fullsize truck width and wheelbase territory that are running 37/38s. Both those vehicles will walk right up the harder trails if you pick your line right and get a little lucky with trail condition.

We've also seen that the people who enter larger and fullsize vehicles into 4600 regularly DNF.

What we haven't seen is someone enter a fullsize vehicle expressly planning to tear the body off. Once you've committed to actively shedding the body there's a hell of a lot of tricks you could pull to prevent the body from hindering you as you leave it on the trail.

I agree with everyone saying that small and light is a faster and more proven way to get on the podium but I don't see why big and heavy couldn't get you there too. Small and light has 20+yr of incremental refinement and industry experience thrown at it that big and heavy doesn't.

 

['84 Bronco II]

Jessie won in the Roxor? I thought he got taken out when the suspension ate the crank pulley at full bump. Or was that 2yr ago?

I agree that Jessie + portals will make any vehicle a ton more competitive but I don't see any reason. Which then begs the question if a good driver and good axles make a small noncompetitive shitbox competitive why can't they do the same for a big shitbox?

We've all seen videos of fullsizes wheeling Johnson valley. Granted they're usually running bigger than 35" tires but there's a hell of a lot of buggies that are pushing into fullsize truck width and wheelbase territory that are running 37/38s. Both those vehicles will walk right up the harder trails if you pick your line right and get a little lucky with trail condition.

We've also seen that the people who enter larger and fullsize vehicles into 4600 regularly DNF.

What we haven't seen is someone enter a fullsize vehicle expressly planning to tear the body off. Once you've committed to actively shedding the body there's a hell of a lot of tricks you could pull to prevent the body from hindering you as you leave it on the trail.

I agree with everyone saying that small and light is a faster and more proven way to get on the podium but I don't see why big and heavy couldn't get you there too. Small and light has 20+yr of incremental refinement and industry experience thrown at it that big and heavy doesn't.

That was two years ago that Jesse got taken out early. This last year's 4600 race was won in the rocks where Jesse was able to catch up with the leaders who were a good ways ahead of him going into the rocks. At one point, Josh Atteberry, Justin Reece, and Jesse Haines (all three race leaders) were all stuck/rolled over at the same spot on Chocolate Thunder

Do you have any videos of a full size on 35s doing the rock trails at the hammers? I haven't seen any personally. I am not trying to talk shit, but have any of you championing a Superduty actually been on the trails at the hammers? I would love to see someone give it a go in a Superduty, but only as long as they start behind me

 

[JR4X]

At one point, Josh Atteberry, Justin Reece, and Jesse Haines (all three race leaders) were all stuck/rolled over at the same spot on Chocolate Thunder

Quoting you out of context. Why are you abandoning the BII for an EB? What advantage are you trying to gain? I too couldn’t fathom “racing” a superduty. My new favorite to win (sorry) is the FSB from Texas. I was going to build a Full size Bronco and I think I could build a 4600 class assassin for under 10K. There’s always the possibility that it doesn’t work out like I planned. I want to build a bad ass TTB setup. I would rather do a Bronco II or an explorer except there is no transmission that I trust. I know I could build a bomb proof FSB and plan on smashing it through the rocks.

 

[mobil1syn]

We've all seen videos of fullsizes wheeling Johnson valley. Granted they're usually running bigger than 35" tires but there's a hell of a lot of buggies that are pushing into fullsize truck width and wheelbase territory that are running 37/38s. Both those vehicles will walk right up the harder trails if you pick your line right and get a little lucky with trail condition.

the buggies trackwidth are fullsize, but the chassis' are not. trail wheeling is a completely different animal than racing.

I would rather do a Bronco II or an explorer except there is no transmission that I trust.

run a c5

 

['84 Bronco II]

Quoting you out of context. Why are you abandoning the BII for an EB? What advantage are you trying to gain? I too couldn’t fathom “racing” a superduty. My new favorite to win (sorry) is the FSB from Texas. I was going to build a Full size Bronco and I think I could build a 4600 class assassin for under 10K. There’s always the possibility that it doesn’t work out like I planned. I want to build a bad ass TTB setup. I would rather do a Bronco II or an explorer except there is no transmission that I trust. I know I could build a bomb proof FSB and plan on smashing it through the rocks.

You don't need to apologize, 4680 is a finished rig and I am just starting mine which is just a pile of parts at the moment I will definitely be watching Lonestar fab on race day and I wish them the best of luck. I am shooting for KOH 2022 since the western series races are really early in the year and I don't think I'll have the rig ready by then (I have no intention of going to Sturgis).

As for my personal vehicular choice, I discussed it a bit in my build thread that I have been needing to update I am a bit of a Ford guy, so that eliminated all the popular Jeep options for me.

The reasons I went with and early Bronco were the coil sprung solid front axle, V8, C4 trans, fully boxed frame, 14" shocks fit at a reasonable ride height, removable top for easy cage fab, and relatively small and light weight. Oh, and don't forget, early Broncos are just plain sexy

Bronco IIs are stuck with anemic engines and shitty automatics aside from the '84-only C5, but then you can't even have the 2.9L. The Toyo Kogyo/Mazda manuals aren't bad, but they aren't great either. The frames are somewhat flimsy and would need a lot of stiffening. I also really didn't want to deal with building a race TTB. It is a lot more complicated than a solid axle and the needs a lot of custom built parts since there aren't a lot of cheap, mass-produced aftermarket parts available. I think a TTB rig could certainly be competitive for the win though, and getting 14" of travel is very cheap and easy compared to any SLA IFS.

However, aside from an early Broncos, I think RBVs are the best options from Ford. Full-size broncos have good drivetrains, but I feel like they are just too big and heavy to truly be competitive. The best RBV choice in my opinion would be a '90-'92 regular cab short bed Ranger with the 4.0L. They have a 107" wheelbase, 65" wide body, have TTB, and are pretty light. You can get 200+HP out of a 4.0L pretty reasonably, but it would be extremely difficult/expensive to get 300HP which is pretty cheap and easy with a 302-based engine. The '93-'97 version doesn't really offer any advantages and the bodies are about 3" wider. Again, the big issue is the transmission choices aren't great. A 2 door '91-'94 Explorer would be my runner-up RBV choice followed by a '86-'90 Bronco II.

the buggies trackwidth are fullsize, but the chassis' are not. trail wheeling is a completely different animal than racing.

EXACTLY.

run a c5

Then you are stuck running a 2.8L since it was '84 only.

 

[Provience]

What we haven't seen is someone enter a fullsize vehicle expressly planning to tear the body off. Once you've committed to actively shedding the body there's a hell of a lot of tricks you could pull to prevent the body from hindering you as you leave it on the trail.
.

right? I think that is an important aspect in addition to: Winch early, winch fast, winch hard. and nobody is out there running a dual motor ~$5k winch on a fullsize, whipping it out rather than trying to hump over a backdoor esq climb

 

[Provience]

also:

IFS will never work in the rocks

 

[mobil1syn]

I think RBVs are the best options from Ford.

really big vagina?

 

[JR4X]

I too am a ford guy over anything else. I race more than just KOH. So a FSB might not be the best KOH rig, other races one could murder the competition in theory. Mexico is on the western series. I can do 16” of F/R wheel travel easily within the rules. A 427 Windsor and C6 are far and above the power capabilities of anything in the class currently. I can cool one a thousand times better than the Jeeps that are winning can. Excellent wheel base, all the aftermarket support in the world.

 

[Yotota]

right? I think that is an important aspect in addition to: Winch early, winch fast, winch hard. and nobody is out there running a dual motor ~$5k winch on a fullsize, whipping it out rather than trying to hump over a backdoor esq climb

Doesn't the 4600 class bypass Backdoor on the current course? What's the tightest rock section that class has to deal with?

While I have no illusions that this fullsize idea is the best option to win KOH 4600, it would be an interesting straightforward build and would be fun as hell to watch. And as mentioned it would do really well in some of the other U4 races.

 

['84 Bronco II]

really big vagina?

Ranger Based Vehicle, sorry, it is a pretty common abbreviation in the Ford world and I forget people might not be familiar with it outside the Ford section. RBV covers Rangers, Explorers, and Bronco IIs since most things interchange between them all.

I too am a ford guy over anything else. I race more than just KOH. So a FSB might not be the best KOH rig, other races one could murder the competition in theory. Mexico is on the western series. I can do 16” of F/R wheel travel easily within the rules. A 427 Windsor and C6 are far and above the power capabilities of anything in the class currently. I can cool one a thousand times better than the Jeeps that are winning can. Excellent wheel base, all the aftermarket support in the world.

I totally agree on the FSB in the desert, it is just the rock trails and 35" tire limitation that I think puts it out of the hunt for KOH. It would probably do great on the short course races too since they are nice and open.

Doesn't the 4600 class bypass Backdoor on the current course? What's the tightest rock section that class has to deal with?

While I have no illusions that this fullsize idea is the best option to win KOH 4600, it would be an interesting straightforward build and would be fun as hell to watch. And as mentioned it would do really well in some of the other U4 races.

4600 goes down Backdoor some years. On the second lap they did up Aftershock, Fissure Mountain, down Jackhammer, up Chocolate Thunder, up Jackhammer North, Down Bender Alley, and down Wrecking ball. On the first lap there was a crawling section through Cougar Buttes and some other minor rock trail, maybe Guacamole?

 

[JR4X]

really big vagina?

Yes, first and foremost really big vaginas!

on a lower level, and a lot less importantly, Ranger Based Vehicle’s. It’s a ranger station coined term to roll everything into one platform

 

[Provience]

I too am a ford guy over anything else. I race more than just KOH. So a FSB might not be the best KOH rig, other races one could murder the competition in theory. Mexico is on the western series. I can do 16” of F/R wheel travel easily within the rules. A 427 Windsor and C6 are far and above the power capabilities of anything in the class currently. I can cool one a thousand times better than the Jeeps that are winning can. Excellent wheel base, all the aftermarket support in the world.

you've got a pretty big advantage also when it comes to things like all the mandated safety gear. not sure if you do or not, but there is a bunch of stuff that crosses over, or could, from one vehicle to the next depending on the race.

hell, maybe eventually i'll need to team up with you so that things like fire suppression systems and hans devices and GPS units can be shared




don't worry, i'm likely to never get that far

 

[Provience]

Doesn't the 4600 class bypass Backdoor on the current course? What's the tightest rock section that class has to deal with?

While I have no illusions that this fullsize idea is the best option to win KOH 4600, it would be an interesting straightforward build and would be fun as hell to watch. And as mentioned it would do really well in some of the other U4 races.

there are several bypasses, but there aren't enough. a fullsize will have plenty of opportunity to winch and it needs to be the game plan as a first option or a one shot and then winch type scenario are people out there thinking that way? probably. but once running it is very very easy to think "just a little bit more and i'll drive it faster"

 

[JR4X]

totally agree on the FSB in the desert, it is just the rock trails and 35" tire limitation that I think puts it out of the hunt for KOH. It would probably do great on the short course races too since they are nice and open.

Can’t say for sure till we try but think I can get one near the same weight of the rest of class. And if I did that I think it would be a lot more capable in the rocks than you think. He’s sandbagging on me but
mobil1syn is an FSB guy, a kick ass shock tuner, and a desert racing guy.

My plan was to take an FSB and take it down to a bare frame and cab. I mean remove absolutely every part piece and screw to where there is only two parts. A frame and a cab. Then, only put back the minimum to pass tech. Between my brothers and I we’ve got everything we need to put D50 TTB in one, a 427 Windsor, a C6 an atlas a 9”. I’d do Giant 64” rear leaves. Cut n turn beams, RCV shafts. It wouldn’t be Toyota weight but I think I could get it under 5,000 pounds.

 

[Provience]

Can’t say for sure till we try but think I can get one near the same weight of the rest of class. And if I did that I think it would be a lot more capable in the rocks than you think. He’s sandbagging on me but
mobil1syn is an FSB guy, a kick ass shock tuner, and a desert racing guy.

My plan was to take an FSB and take it down to a bare frame and cab. I mean remove absolutely every part piece and screw to where there is only two parts. A frame and a cab. Then, only put back the minimum to pass tech. Between my brothers and I we’ve got everything we need to put D50 TTB in one, a 427 Windsor, a C6 an atlas a 9”. I’d do Giant 64” rear leaves. Cut n turn beams, RCV shafts. It wouldn’t be Toyota weight but I think I could get it under 5,000 pounds.

that's basically the same plan for a superduty/expedition/suburban.

strip everything. build the lightest "tube doors" that will pass tech everywhere, cut the rear tailgate/liftgate down to the minimum frame just like the XJ guys do. remove everything off the frame except for some long sprung under leaf springs, depending on budget, AL cases in the drivetrain/engine. Batteries and fuel tanks in the bed/rear cargo area to move the weight back and up out of the rock.

bare bones basic cage going to the frame/body mounts so that you can cut those there and use it to brace the whole frame, but keep it away from the body so that it doesn't try to get hung up. replace the rockers with tinfoil so that it will fit in smaller places better. replace the bumpers with very high clearance stuff and the only "strength" to be found at frame rail width and in so that they don't hang you up in the rocks.

lot's of stickers to keep everything together

maybe keep a heater and 2 PVC ducts to go with it

 

['84 Bronco II]

Can’t say for sure till we try but think I can get one near the same weight of the rest of class. And if I did that I think it would be a lot more capable in the rocks than you think. He’s sandbagging on me but
mobil1syn is an FSB guy, a kick ass shock tuner, and a desert racing guy.

My plan was to take an FSB and take it down to a bare frame and cab. I mean remove absolutely every part piece and screw to where there is only two parts. A frame and a cab. Then, only put back the minimum to pass tech. Between my brothers and I we’ve got everything we need to put D50 TTB in one, a 427 Windsor, a C6 an atlas a 9”. I’d do Giant 64” rear leaves. Cut n turn beams, RCV shafts. It wouldn’t be Toyota weight but I think I could get it under 5,000 pounds.

Is that a stock block 427? I didn't think you could get to 427 ci with a factory casting unless you do cylinder sleeves.

I would be curious to know what most of the class weighs in at, but I believe most are over 5,000 Lbs. Jesse told me his Roxor is right at 4,400 Lbs. I am hoping to come in under 4,500Lbs with my build, and I am planning on stripping it down just as you described, but I guess I'll see. I am starting at 3,330 Lbs. for reference. I think under 5,000Lbs could be possible with a FSB, but you are starting at ~4,400 Lbs. stock so it would be tough.

 

[JR4X]

Is that a stock block 427? I didn't think you could get to 427 ci with a factory casting unless you do cylinder sleeves.

I would be curious to know what most of the class weighs in at, but I believe most are over 5,000 Lbs. Jesse told me his Roxor is right at 4,400 Lbs. I am hoping to come in under 4,500Lbs with my build, and I am planning on stripping it down just as you described, but I guess I'll see. I am starting at 3,330 Lbs. for reference. I think under 5,000Lbs could be possible with a FSB, but you are starting at ~4,400 Lbs. stock so it would be tough.

We make 421’s and 427’s out of stock Windsor blocks. 421’s are .030 over and 427’s are .040 or .045 over. 4.1 stroke. 550 reliable horsepower on pump gas. 600+ on 110 octane. We can build two Windsor’s for the price of 1 LS in same hp range.

 

['84 Bronco II]

We make 421’s and 427’s out of stock Windsor blocks. 421’s are .030 over and 427’s are .040 or .045 over. 4.1 stroke. 550 reliable horsepower on pump gas. 600+ on 110 octane. We can build two Windsor’s for the price of 1 LS in same hp range.

I didn't realize 4.1" cranks were available, so I was thinking 4.125" bore 4" stroke. Not that it makes a difference really, but I come up with 421ci with a 4.045" bore and 4.1" stroke. I thought most of the factory castings weren't good for much more than a .030 overbore due to the thin walls.

 

[JR4X]

Are you only living in street world? We’re running a giant radiator in the rear window. You probably wouldn’t want to make a DD engine at 427 but we make race engines in that CID. We run them for one year and the block is done for. It’s a race car we’re not looking for 300K miles out of it.

 

['84 Bronco II]

Are you only living in street world? We’re running a giant radiator in the rear window. You probably wouldn’t want to make a DD engine at 427 but we make race engines in that CID. We run them for one year and the block is done for. It’s a race car we’re not looking for 300K miles out of it.

I guess so

I didn't realize they were making such long stroke cranks for Windsors. It looks like 4.170" is the biggest you can use in a factory block which will give you 427ci with a typical .030 overbore. You can get up to 454ci with a 4.250" crank and a big bore aftermarket block

 

[JR4X]

Getting a little off topic now but have you seen our 4500 car? We’re running a 454 cid Dart aluminum blocked Windsor now. The engine in it is aluminum. There’s a spare 454 cast iron dart block Windsor in the trailer.