Best stock class 4600/4500 Base

[Provience]

I wonder how long it will take before every 4600 wannabe contender takes the lead from Jesse and moves to portals, at least for KOH. Sure, they're spendy; but I can't think of a better way to work around the lack of body mods and limited tire size. I wonder how possible it would be to use a stock hummer knuckle on a modified factory IFS?

For 4500, I would not use any frame or body part from a stock vehicle. Tube chassis with just enough "body work" to make it class legal.

if you or somebody you know is willing to sink in some serious coin, IRS/IFS portal boxes in an expedition would be the hot ticket.

but hell, at least there is SOME money to be recouped in 4400 compared to 4600

 

[JR4X]

Just a few more things I can verify on superduty’s. They do not need the drivetrain raised to do a flat belly. The only things that hang below the bottom of the frame rail are the gas tank and the muffler.

2011 up 4x4’s come with electric rear lockers that should be plenty tough enough for the vehicle it’s in. Work sells them all the time with 150K miles for $4500 to $7500 bucks, that’s a complete XL work truck.

The biggest concern I’d have is getting the electronic crap stripped out of it without pissing off the computer. I don’t know anyone that can delete the ECM of all the extra nonsense.

 

[JohnnyJ]

but hell, at least there is SOME money to be recouped in 4400 compared to 4600

Yeah, but no. 🤣

I'd guess if you put $75K into a 4600 rig and had a business/sponsor that could sink the money, you could probably sandbag some wins with a reasonably competent driver. I think enough people have figured out there doesn't seem to be a $$$ amount to guarantee that in 4400. The logistics at some point aren't so different than a 4400 vs 4600, other than as 4400 is becoming more competitive, I'm guessing pit crews are becoming more important.

The biggest concern I’d have is getting the electronic crap stripped out of it without pissing off the computer. I don’t know anyone that can delete the ECM of all the extra nonsense.

Can a gasser be run with something aftermarket? I believe there's some aftermarket GM 6-speed controllers coming out; I wonder if there's similar for Ford? I think a ford friend of mine said there was something, but I've never bothered to look.

 

[JR4X]

Can a gasser be run with something aftermarket? I believe there's some aftermarket GM 6-speed controllers coming out; I wonder if there's similar for Ford? I think a ford friend of mine said there was something, but I've never bothered to look.

I don’t know, never tried. It comes down to this stupid 60 year old notion that whatever GM small block is newest is pretty much the only thing supported in aftermarket. Not that LS’s are better (they aren’t) but the absolute piles of shit that LS’s come in end up in the junkyard so frequently you really can pick them up cheap and easy. There’s probably someone doing OHV ford stuff I just don’t know who or where.

 

[Yotota]

Just a few more things I can verify on superduty’s. They do not need the drivetrain raised to do a flat belly. The only things that hang below the bottom of the frame rail are the gas tank and the muffler.

2011 up 4x4’s come with electric rear lockers that should be plenty tough enough for the vehicle it’s in. Work sells them all the time with 150K miles for $4500 to $7500 bucks, that’s a complete XL work truck.

The biggest concern I’d have is getting the electronic crap stripped out of it without pissing off the computer. I don’t know anyone that can delete the ECM of all the extra nonsense.

Good to know on the flat belly, and that CHEAP deal. I think a RCLB and ECSB both have the 137"WB so either one would work.

Yeah, the electronics would probably be the only real hurdle. Getting the ECU/TCU to work properly but the ABS/traction control/immobilizer/airbags/etc to not freak the hell out in a race would be difficult.

​​​​​But overall, this could be a ~$20k build and should be stout enough to hold up.

Edit: if a team had their shit together, with a good plan and budget, I bet getting sponsors for this program wouldn't be too hard. A suspension company like Carli would probably enjoy the exposure, along with some other fullsize truck parts companies who don't normally sponsor U4 race rigs.

 

[Provience]

I don’t know, never tried. It comes down to this stupid 60 year old notion that whatever GM small block is newest is pretty much the only thing supported in aftermarket. Not that LS’s are better (they aren’t) but the absolute piles of shit that LS’s come in end up in the junkyard so frequently you really can pick them up cheap and easy. There’s probably someone doing OHV ford stuff I just don’t know who or where.

what electronics would you be looking at eliminating? The whole setup would still run with the ABS removed, because that is a common failsafe that brakes still work with ABS failures. Transmission would be stock and transgo makes a basic shift kit for them

PCS Transmission Controller (destroked.com)

for $1k you can get a shift controller for them, but i think with mild engine mods you won't outpace the ECU and shouldn't really have a problem using stock ECU and TCM, so the immobilizer shouldn't be a problem.

swapping in an atlas or other AL cable shifted transfer case, well i guess the big question that would remain is where the ECU reads the vehicle speed signal.

i think a $20k build budget would be more than enough, it's the cost of getting everything else all together and such that puts it into the $35k overall budget minimum as far as i can tell

 

[JR4X]

what electronics would you be looking at eliminating? The whole setup would still run with the ABS removed, because that is a common failsafe that brakes still work with ABS failures. Transmission would be stock and transgo makes a basic shift kit for them

PCS Transmission Controller (destroked.com)

for $1k you can get a shift controller for them, but i think with mild engine mods you won't outpace the ECU and shouldn't really have a problem using stock ECU and TCM, so the immobilizer shouldn't be a problem.

swapping in an atlas or other AL cable shifted transfer case, well i guess the big question that would remain is where the ECU reads the vehicle speed signal.

i think a $20k build budget would be more than enough, it's the cost of getting everything else all together and such that puts it into the $35k overall budget minimum as far as i can tell

I drive one every day. ABS, Traction control and advance trac absolutely have to go. On older trucks that I’ve tried to temporarily remove ABS from, won’t let the transmission shift past 2nd gear with out all the wheel speed sensors reading. Air bags, VATS, all the crash switches and sensors.

 

[Provience]

I drive one every day. ABS, Traction control and advance trac absolutely have to go. On older trucks that I’ve tried to temporarily remove ABS from, won’t let the transmission shift past 2nd gear with out all the wheel speed sensors reading. Air bags, VATS, all the crash switches and sensors.

damn.

i don't spend enough time around newer vehicles apparently.

 

[Provience]

I drive one every day. ABS, Traction control and advance trac absolutely have to go. On older trucks that I’ve tried to temporarily remove ABS from, won’t let the transmission shift past 2nd gear with out all the wheel speed sensors reading. Air bags, VATS, all the crash switches and sensors.

Disable traction control and turn on locker at any speed | Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum

check out this thread, with only tapping a couple wires it doesn't seem particularly difficult

edit:

Just re-read some of my manual. So in 2wd or 4 hi it will turn off at 25+ then re-engage when it goes below 25 again, also will not engage if over 50% of pedal is applied.

Now if you are in 4 low it will stay engaged until 65 than it will disengage untill the truck reaches 56. So i guess its safe to say it is good till 65 as long as you are on LOOSE ground. Of couse your would have to be running 4k rpm in 6th to make 65 in low lol.

i'd like to think that with a 137" wheelbase it would be reasonable to get more than 65MPH out on the open areas, but hell, with all them transmission gears, maybe leaving the t-case and everything stock and rocking 4lo the whole time would be enough to keep the nanny controllers disabled.

 

[Yotota]

Disable traction control and turn on locker at any speed | Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum

check out this thread, with only tapping a couple wires it doesn't seem particularly difficult

edit:



i'd like to think that with a 137" wheelbase it would be reasonable to get more than 65MPH out on the open areas, but hell, with all them transmission gears, maybe leaving the t-case and everything stock and rocking 4lo the whole time would be enough to keep the nanny controllers disabled.

Dug up some specs for the 2011-16 6.2L SD trucks:

6300rpm redline
4500rpm peak torque
1st gear 3.97
6th gear 0.67
T-case low 2.72
Optional axle ratio 4.30
= Crawl ratio 46.43
Stock TC stall (maybe) 2000rpm

Did some math for 35" tires:
Speed in low range 6th gear @ 4500rpm = 59.79mph
Top speed, low range 6th gear @ 6300rpm = 83.71mph
Speed in 1st gear, low range, 2000rpm (crawl speed without the TC slipping) = 4.48mph

That seems pretty decent for keeping the stock transfer case and just running it in low the whole time.

 

[Provience]

Dug up some specs for the 2011-16 6.2L SD trucks:

6300rpm redline
4500rpm peak torque
1st gear 3.97
6th gear 0.67
T-case low 2.72
Optional a ratio 4.30
= Crawl ratio 46.43
Stock TC stall (maybe) 2000rpm

Did some math for 35" tires:
Speed in low @ 4500rpm = 59.79mph
Top speed in low @ 6300rpm = 83.71mph
Speed in 1st gear, low range, 2000rpm (crawl speed without the TC slipping) = 4.48mph

That seems pretty decent for keeping the stock transfer case and just running it in low the whole time.

well, that 6 speed makes a pretty good difference. i've just been pulling up 5R- information. if 4 Lo disables/ignores all the ABS/Traction Control stuff already, that would be solid.

save the money from buying an atlas and put that money into making the cooling system significantly higher capacity so that you can wail on it

edit: plan on the transmission being high slip, give it plenty of coolers as well.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Can a gasser be run with something aftermarket? I believe there's some aftermarket GM 6-speed controllers coming out; I wonder if there's similar for Ford? I think a ford friend of mine said there was something, but I've never bothered to look.

Solenoids are solenoids.

If you diagram out what solenoids are active in what gears between the Ford and GM it should be obvious whether the GM controller can run the Ford with some wire swapping.

 

[Yotota]

well, that 6 speed makes a pretty good difference. i've just been pulling up 5R- information. if 4 Lo disables/ignores all the ABS/Traction Control stuff already, that would be solid.

save the money from buying an atlas and put that money into making the cooling system significantly higher capacity so that you can wail on it

edit: plan on the transmission being high slip, give it plenty of coolers as well.

Definitely, if it's getting beat on at 4-5k rpm for an hour and then crawling with TC slip for an hour then repeating the process a few times it will need all the engine and trans cooling possible. Bigass radiator, bigass trans cooler, bigass fans, bigass high output alternator to run the bigass fans while winching over and over (with a bigass winch). And carry a spare fan and alternator. Probably need dual AGMs as well to buffer that load.

 

[Yotota]

Thinking about tires, I would probably just build the truck around 37" bias Trepadors and then run 35" bias Treps for the race.

Damn I kinda want to build this now. Someone needs to snag a cheap RCLB 6.2L truck and make it happen so we can live vicariously through you.

 

[Provience]

Definitely, if it's getting beat on at 4-5k rpm for an hour and then crawling with TC slip for an hour then repeating the process a few times it will need all the engine and trans cooling possible. Bigass radiator, bigass trans cooler, bigass fans, bigass high output alternator to run the bigass fans while winching over and over (with a bigass winch). And carry a spare fan and alternator. Probably need dual AGMs as well to buffer that load.

dual battery and dual alt's for sure, probably just got to 24v to keep the fan and winch loads down a bit

i'll have to see what i'm up against in 2 years, but that would be my best chance to start

 

[mobil1syn]

Edit: if a team had their shit together, with a good plan and budget, I bet getting sponsors for this program wouldn't be too hard. A suspension company like Carli would probably enjoy the exposure, along with some other fullsize truck parts companies who don't normally sponsor U4 race rigs.

youre understanding of how racing partnerships is lacking.

you want to race with a sportsman approach, build a 4800. i do not see a FS finishing within the time limit in the stock class, ever.

 

[Provience]

youre understanding of how racing partnerships is lacking.

you want to race with a sportsman approach, build a 4800. i do not see a FS finishing within the time limit in the stock class, ever.

did the Gladiator not finish in time last year or the year before whenever it was? thought they did. it's full size.

 

[mobil1syn]

did the Gladiator not finish in time last year or the year before whenever it was? thought they did. it's full size.

depending on who you talk to the time limit may have been adjusted to get the marketing desired of the effort. i disagree that it is a fullsize.

 

[Provience]

depending on who you talk to the time limit may have been adjusted to get the marketing desired of the effort. i disagree that it is a fullsize.

137" wheelbase, 74" wide and 219" overall length for the gladiator

137" wheelbase, 80" wide (68" track width) and 227" overall length for F250

it's pretty dang close. i'd bet with custom bumpers the F250 could be pretty close in length and once the fenders are crushed in on the first couple rocks about the same body width. dimensions from sales catalogues

edit: sure, the gladiator may or may not have made time and had full factory and aftermarket support and over 50 years racing experience in the cab and still had to have adjusted time but hey, we are splitting hairs here. most of 4600 podiums if they manage to finish in time, so that isn't a great marker of success

 

[FC4X4]

did the Gladiator not finish in time last year or the year before whenever it was? thought they did. it's full size.

Time was extended for the factory team with the JT to finish. Do you have any idea what Gerald's budget must have been for that effort?

I also do not consider the Gladiator a full-size rig, certainly not when compared to a Superduty. A Superduty on 35s sounds like the biggest trail tampon in 4600 history.

What's wrong with LJs and WJs? Proven platforms by multiple teams.

 

[Provience]

Time was extended for the factory team with the JT to finish. Do you have any idea what Gerald's budget must have been for that effort?

I also do not consider the Gladiator a full-size rig, certainly not when compared to a Superduty. A Superduty on 35s sounds like the biggest trail tampon in 4600 history.

What's wrong with LJs and WJs? Proven platforms by multiple teams.

there is no way that rig was under $100k. aside from being fullsize dimensionally, why do you not consider it a fullsize rig? I think a huge amount of weight could be take off a super duty. maybe i'm way off on that.

 

[mobil1syn]

aside from being fullsize dimensionally, why do you not consider it a fullsize rig? I think a huge amount of weight could be take off a super duty. maybe i'm way off on that.

i think the extra width is a huge factor

 

[Provience]

i think the extra width is a huge factor

yeah, certainly would be the more difficult thing to mitigate.

I dunno, but somebody with $100k to blow should try it out

as for proven and reliable things like JK and WJ and JL and ZJ and whatever, has the OP even been back to this thread after starting it? That's why i'm fine with the fullsize spitball pipe dream

 

[pennsylvaniaboy]

Meh, I think with the right body mods, cutting and gutting, and appropriate driving style the superduty would work great

 

[mobil1syn]

yeah, certainly would be the more difficult thing to mitigate.

I dunno, but somebody with $100k to blow should try it out

as for proven and reliable things like JK and WJ and JL and ZJ and whatever, has the OP even been back to this thread after starting it? That's why i'm fine with the fullsize spitball pipe dream

the LJ is probably the best platform for a finish. if you wanted to be different and be fast i would pick a raingutter shortbed std cab ranger with a fast winch and fit codriver.

Meh, I think with the right body mods, cutting and gutting, and appropriate driving style the superduty would work great

to meet the class rules, you get a belly tuck and sliders. tailgate has to be on it, inner fenders, minimal trimming on the fender, etc.

 

[Yotota]

youre understanding of how racing partnerships is lacking.

you want to race with a sportsman approach, build a 4800. i do not see a FS finishing within the time limit in the stock class, ever.

Considering I know somewhere between "jack" and "shit" about racing, I won't argue with that.

Compared to the Gladiator that finished, the theoretical fullsize Ford 4600 is 6" wider and 9" longer. Not optimal, but not insurmountable.

 

[mobil1syn]

Considering I know somewhere between "jack" and "shit" about racing, I won't argue with that.

sorry for my snarkiness.

selling a company to buy into your program with no track record is nearly impossible. the thing that people fail to realize is that the company wants a return on their investment, which means attending shows/events, social media presence, and usually a certain number for races. a couple hundred bucks of product usually costs significantly more in the long run. big name teams develop relationships over many years, often for free in the beginning, then with a discount on product, eventually if you are good and prove your worth they will write checks.

 

['84 Bronco II]

I can't believe you guys are seriously discussing racing a Superduty in the 4600 class at KOH I would love to watch someone try, but it would be a terrible choice.

137" wheelbase, 74" wide and 219" overall length for the gladiator

137" wheelbase, 80" wide (68" track width) and 227" overall length for F250

it's pretty dang close. i'd bet with custom bumpers the F250 could be pretty close in length and once the fenders are crushed in on the first couple rocks about the same body width. dimensions from sales catalogues

edit: sure, the gladiator may or may not have made time and had full factory and aftermarket support and over 50 years racing experience in the cab and still had to have adjusted time but hey, we are splitting hairs here. most of 4600 podiums if they manage to finish in time, so that isn't a great marker of success

A Gladiator is not fullsize, not even close The wheel base may be right on par with a RCLB Superduty, but what the width figure you can find on Google does't tell you is that the body on the Gladiator is only 65-66" wide, which is about the same as a first gen Ranger. The body on the Superduty is literally over a foot wider in reality and 8" longer (mostly in front of the front axle).

Even a gas Superduty will be a 6,000 Lbs pig if not close to, or over 7,000 Lbs in race trim. You aren't going to lose weight turning it into a race truck I like how everyone is comparing it to a Gladiator that had every possible chance to succeed, but didn't, and somehow they conclude a Superduty that is at a disadvantage from nearly every aspect other than perhaps the engine is a good choice.

When you are limited on tire and suspension, keeping things small and relatively light weight is key.

 

[Provience]

I can't believe you guys are seriously discussing racing a Superduty in the 4600 class at KOH I would love to watch someone try, but it would be a terrible choice.



A Gladiator is not fullsize, not even close The wheel base may be right on par with a RCLB Superduty, but what the width figure you can find on Google does't tell you is that the body on the Gladiator is only 65-66" wide, which is about the same as a first gen Ranger. The body on the Superduty is literally over a foot wider in reality and 8" longer (mostly in front of the front axle).

Even a gas Superduty will be a 6,000 Lbs pig if not close to, or over 7,000 Lbs in race trim. You aren't going to lose weight turning it into a race truck I like how everyone is comparing it to a Gladiator that had every possible chance to succeed, but didn't, and somehow they conclude a Superduty that is at a disadvantage from nearly every aspect other than perhaps the engine is a good choice.

When you are limited on tire and suspension, keeping things small and relatively light weight is key.

1) a gladiator is a fullsize that is just less comfortable to sit in

2) the body is plenty crushable, as long as you show up to tech with all the panels, you're fine

3) there is plenty of weight to drop ..... shuddup MA!!!

alright fine, not a superduty.

so, i'm cruising home today in my 1997 'burb thinking "damn, there is a whole lot of weight in this plush interior to trim out, without adding too much width, i bet i could get 10" of travel out of the front and maybe run a high offset wheel to bring the tire back in"

1997 Chevrolet (USA) Suburban K2500 full range specs (automobile-catalog.com)

5,660 lb stock curb weight. 131" wheel base, 219" overall length, 76" wide

front doors probably weigh as much as a 6 point cage out of 2" tube would be

rear doors gotta be worth the weight of a winch. glass equals 2 spare tires.

added bonus, i could use the racetruck to tow my crawler to johnson valley, race the EMC and wheel the week after, then load up and drive the racecar back #HopeFloats


cons: torsion bars up front

pros: not a ford

 

[Provience]

sorry for my snarkiness.

selling a company to buy into your program with no track record is nearly impossible. the thing that people fail to realize is that the company wants a return on their investment, which means attending shows/events, social media presence, and usually a certain number for races. a couple hundred bucks of product usually costs significantly more in the long run. big name teams develop relationships over many years, often for free in the beginning, then with a discount on product, eventually if you are good and prove your worth they will write checks.

don't ever apologize for being awesome

I'll settle for full price parts and free tech support :D