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Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

How does live tuning work? Is it possible for someone talented enough to be watching the engine during the race and keep it alive via starlink if power needs to be pulled or something changed on the fly?
 
2big bronco said:
How does live tuning work? Is it possible for someone talented enough to be watching the engine during the race and keep it alive via starlink if power needs to be pulled or something changed on the fly?
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Absolutely. Doesn't even take a fancy ECU. The terminator X is able to do so, you just need a wifi box.

You're taking a gamble of course, cause if the connection is a little shit, you could fuck the tuning up or something weird.
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
And then you have to figure out and solve the oiling issues you will most likely experience unless going straight to a dry sump oiling system. Oiling system problems off-road have long since been solved on the common American V8's we use so it's another one of those "easy button" things that keeps everyone using the common engines.
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I honestly haven't got that far. I'm sure there is a solution, although like you say, it's probably not as

John Martinson with the fiat Ghoulie runs a ~500hp turbo K24 and beats the piss out of it all over the western US summer and winter. That rig has made me a believer in that engine, so I'd guess I'd start by seeing what he runs.
 
Bebop said:
Got any pointer on a custom foam insert manufacturer ?

You've met me. I'm a tall stick. I feel like a hardshell would hold me better than the PRPs I have now.
The 3G has seat belt slots that are too low for me.

The comfiest seat I've ever sat in was a custom height gen 1 PRP podium. I called PRP and they told me they didn't make custom Podiums. I told them I saw one and they told me it was a sponsored racer only deal.
Now they don't make Gen1s anymore and the Gen2s are far from being as comfortable to me.
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Most sparco dealers can do them. Go-kart places do them frequently. Have a buddy in Phoenix with a cart shop that did mine. I think they might even have a DIY kit.
 
2big bronco said:
How does live tuning work? Is it possible for someone talented enough to be watching the engine during the race and keep it alive via starlink if power needs to be pulled or something changed on the fly?
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Thats a very interesting idea.

Could have kept Shannon Campbell in the race possibly.

Could have maybe kept Lorens trans alive.

I'd imagine you can get some serious tunnel vision during a race, especially if you're leading KOH. Having someone in an air conditioned room on a computer dialing things back a hair to keep you rolling could be a game changer.
 
What is old is new agian. Late 90's early 2000's the team McPherson chevys had onboard telemetry. The engine guys were in Detroit watching the motor, trans and suspension working. We removed about a mile of little wire and dozens of sensor mounts out of little Mac #2.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
For $10k I feel like I could get a near bulletproof driveshaft made. 3" 250 wall chromo? Or maybe even titanium for that money. :laughing:
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I thought that was already standard.

I am a big fan of IRS for the life of a driveshaft.

Thompsons DogBone centered IRS could easily be the future behind rear SA.
"Traditional IRS with a centered diff has minimal round clearance. From Diff centerline to bottom of skid is probably 9". In the Thompson DogBone it could be in the 5" range. That can give IRS a true 24" of rear travel instead of about 18" travel and hurts. The real difference between IRS and SA is the skid from the front to the rear allowing the drivers to attack the rocks and not get hooked. (As I partially look back, the winching guys were trying to pick their way thru the rocks. Being conservative....LOL.
Next up is the SA with the diff offset to MAX. Which could be a billet piece with the upright. .(When throwing out "what if's" with Weismann, we were thinking back-to-back CV's, Offset pinions at least 8-10", and the ability to rotate the pinion for driveshaft clearance if needed.) Much of that is in the Lasernut car and a few others.

Those talking about lite transmissions should talk to the guys who make them and they will NOT sell to you. KOH is a different beast and even SCS single speed transfer cases are NOT bulletproof. Think of a MOTO going thru the whoops and that chain slapping back and forth. (unless trail braking) Nothing has been bullet proof.... unless you might be going the speeds of 14 years ago on 37" tires. The Weismann diffs worked well in Pro4 but were tempermental at KOH and now almost always paired with a portal now. But still somewhat tempermental as all that gear can get stopped instantly landing a jump wrong, or hitting something (Hundreds of times) Latest is using sprags to minimize the rotating mass needing to stop. At one time we wants to use axle shafts to contain the torque but most complained about whip at those fast shaft speeds.

Gigglepin winches about 130 lbs. Full size "race winches" about 70ish lbs. A 5500ish UTV winch about 30ish lbs. Choices. .... I kinda like the ideas of a removeable winch and used like a spare tire. Insert it where you need it Get some high voltage to it somehow and a remote clutch. Hopefully don't need it.

Dream about solving issues......Innovate......Test.
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
And then you have to figure out and solve the oiling issues you will most likely experience unless going straight to a dry sump oiling system. Oiling system problems off-road have long since been solved on the common American V8's we use so it's another one of those "easy button" things that keeps everyone using the common engines.
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Bebop said:
Absolutely. But again, weight and complexity.

Bombers / Miller and some other front runners are still wet sump.
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At the 4400 KOH pro level, if you are not running a dry sump, you are not taking things seriously.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
I honestly haven't got that far. I'm sure there is a solution, although like you say, it's probably not as

John Martinson with the fiat Ghoulie runs a ~500hp turbo K24 and beats the piss out of it all over the western US summer and winter. That rig has made me a believer in that engine, so I'd guess I'd start by seeing what he runs.
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That is a pretty cool rig and he beats the hell out of it in the videos I've seen.

BUT does he beat the hell out of it for 6 hours straight?
 
Bebop said:
That trans is a little small. The 8Hp70 from behind the 1500 Rams would be my pick. As far as ECUs, they are here now. It's absolutely not a problem anymore.
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Yes, totally get that, but the JL/JT trans is what got the convo running.

8HP70 is good for 500`ish Torque?
The 8HP95 is used in the Trackhawk at 707HP.

From Holley:
8HP-Trans-Torque.png


Who is building ECUs for the 8xxx transmissions?

I know AMW was working with someone, as was Comp Cams/Edelbrock. But both of those projects have fallen silent.

Holley also had this basic weight sched with torque converter:
Trans-Weights.png
 
Tech Tim said:
Yes, totally get that, but the JL/JT trans is what got the convo running.

8HP70 is good for 500`ish Torque?
The 8HP95 is used in the Trackhawk at 707HP.
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Both of them are good for a lot more, especially if you change the tuning.
Tons, I mean tons of aftermarket support for the 8hp95 with Trackhawk guys running 1000+hp and launching them at the strip.
Again, different than a 6h straight beating but worth checking out.


Tech Tim said:
At the 4400 KOH pro level, if you are not running a dry sump, you are not taking things seriously.
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You can't say that Erik Miller isn't serious about KOH.
Does John Webb run a dry sump ?
 
There was a comment in one of the early post race 4400 interviews where the driver said that the gomez brothers make the best driveline out there. Are they doing something new?
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
Accumulator is only good for a few seconds and isn't a fix for not being able to keep oil around the pickup tube in off camber or rough high speed situations.
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I think you are unaware of all the R&D that has been done to make these engines stay oiled for high G road shit. It's not directly applicable but the vast majority of it crosses right over.

I would go so far to say that off-road oil control shit is behind the curve compared road racing shit generally, regardless of engine platform being discussed.

2big bronco said:
You know the manual behind the ecoboost bronco is a 7spd with 6.5- 1st right
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I know. And the gear splits look a lot like a non-overdrive 5spd from the 50s-80s with a couple overdrives afterwards.

Sure, splits get a little worse with a 4spd because you lose a gear but turbo tuning really makes that a lot less of an issue.

Would you rather have a 70s truck with a 4spd and your engine or would you rather have a 70s truck with a 5spd manual or 6-8spd auto and a NA ~5L V8 of the period that makes the same peak power as your engine? I know which I'd rather have. But I'm also not the kind of guy who never wants to cruise above 2500rpm.
 
arse_sidewards said:
I think you are unaware of all the R&D that has been done to make these engines stay oiled for high G road shit. It's not directly applicable but the vast majority of it crosses right over.

I would go so far to say that off-road oil control shit is behind the curve compared road racing shit generally, regardless of engine platform being discussed.
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Fully aware. They call those dry sump systems

How many vette engines blew up because GM figured out how to make the car pull more Gs than the oiling system could control? And that was with their "innovative" wet/dry sump bullshit.
 
Tech Tim said:
At the 4400 KOH pro level, if you are not running a dry sump, you are not taking things seriously.
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We still still see enough dry sump drive issues every year taking out mega dollar engines that it’s sickening. Pick your spun bearing poison. Cavitation in the pan, or instant full oil psi loss when the belt breaks or comes off.
 
Tech Tim said:
Fouling plugs is what hurt Scherer last year. The motor was still fine.
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This is why a post KOH live would be so cool. On the live feed last year we were told the motor was hurt. Not to anyone’s fault, at the time, they may have thought that, but then they find out what actually happened wasn’t what they thought.

3-4 weeks after KOH they can get a post KOH live with more detail. I do understand people don’t always tear down their car within 3-4 weeks
 
Bebop said:
Got any pointer on a custom foam insert manufacturer ?

You've met me. I'm a tall stick. I feel like a hardshell would hold me better than the PRPs I have now.
The 3G has seat belt slots that are too low for me.

The comfiest seat I've ever sat in was a custom height gen 1 PRP podium. I called PRP and they told me they didn't make custom Podiums. I told them I saw one and they told me it was a sponsored racer only deal.
Now they don't make Gen1s anymore and the Gen2s are far from being as comfortable to me.
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BSCI roll bar padding and foam seat molding

Not sure if you found anywhere else but stumbled upon these guys awhile ago looking for legit roll bar padding

they have "comfort" stuff and SFI and FIA approved stuff
 
mobil1syn said:
unfortunately details information regarding failures will not be spread to the mass. there are multiple reasons why but it just isnt going to happen.
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That's annoying. Hell even F1 talks about failures and there is shitload more money at stake with one of the back marker teams than in the entire 4400 class.
 
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Slander said:
That's annoying l. Hell even F1 talks about failures and there is shitload more money at stake with one of the back marker teams than in the entire 4400 class.
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As a racer, why should you ?
I'm sure they talk about their failures with the people they think can help them.
 
Slander said:
That's annoying l. Hell even F1 talks about failures and there is shitload more money at stake with one of the back marker teams than in the entire 4400 class.
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People can’t be saying anything about a sponsors failed product or risk losing said sponsorship. For instance, there is a major team in the game that is sponsored by PSC steering. I know that they break steering parts, I’ve been there when they were walking because of failed steering parts. On social media they go in every post about steering and say that PSC is the best and they’ve never had a failure. Probably why I can never secure cash sponsorship, I tell the whole story always.
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
Cam, crank or flywheel driven pump makes that a non issue.
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You got an example of that?

I've seen some shit done with roller chain and a sprocket spacer but it certainly wasn't a "yeah let me take this to the desert for a few hundred miles of racing" type setup.
 
JR4X said:
People can’t be saying anything about a sponsors failed product or risk losing said sponsorship. For instance, there is a major team in the game that is sponsored by PSC steering. I know that they break steering parts, I’ve been there when they were walking because of failed steering parts. On social media they go in every post about steering and say that PSC is the best and they’ve never had a failure. Probably why I can never secure cash sponsorship, I tell the whole story always.
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That might be why they steer left into other people and flip them on mile 4 of lap 1 ? :laughing:

Edit : Lot's of people have had shit luck with pretty much all PS companies. Eric from RD is awesome but he lacks a lot of parts in his offering so you end up dealing with the other guys anyway...
 
mobil1syn said:
unfortunately details information regarding failures will not be spread to the mass. there are multiple reasons why but it just isnt going to happen.
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JR4X said:
People can’t be saying anything about a sponsors failed product or risk losing said sponsorship.
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Fine then.

Let teams who can share and who want the publicity to volunteer the footage.

Broke shit sells eyeball hours real well. Look at all the fail compilations on Youtube and whatnot. A slightly higher brow "here's what broke and why it broke" would be valuable enough content. Plenty of the big Youtube names are already doing teardowns of their broken shit.
 
mobil1syn said:
unfortunately details information regarding failures will not be spread to the mass. there are multiple reasons why but it just isnt going to happen.
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That’s a good point, I wonder where Tech Tim got the info on his motor, I vividly remember the live feed saying the motor was hurt.
 
arse_sidewards said:
Fine then.

Let teams who can share and who want the publicity to volunteer the footage.

Broke shit sells eyeball hours real well. Look at all the fail compilations on Youtube and whatnot. A slightly higher brow "here's what broke and why it broke" would be valuable enough content. Plenty of the big Youtube names are already doing teardowns of their broken shit.
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I’m not saying it’s right. Just telling you why. With my loose lips and big mouth, I have cost my team opportunities because I’m a liability. Some people are smarter than that and have the opportunities to show for it. :homer:
 
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