Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

[mobil1syn]

Check out the laser nut ifs/irs buggy for enduring "everything is perfect but too unique" issues

biting my tongue

 

[Provience]

biting my tongue

I love everything about that car and just want it to be on top at the end of the day.

Was telling the wife that's it's kind of surprising how many years it's been since it debuted. Trail hero v1.0....that was the last time I went rock crawling in my own rig 😢

 

[matzell]

On the 6+ speed trans. I think I heard only 1 car in the whole 2 days mentioned having a 6l80/90e.

Unfortunately due to them being a 100% computer controlled shift you can't Manual valve body them all you can do is the paddle shifters or select shift up and down I believe. Can't hit reverse quick on that setup.

On the horsepower issue, look at what Amber managed on a 450-500 hp car that the Slawsons pushed to a win the day before. She still managed a top 25 finish. Had she had the experience to drive fast she could have been a top 15 finish. And that was on a car with no bypasses...

Something about simplicity still rings true.

I have a 6L80 in my car with internals and tune by Zero Gravity, same guy who builds Levi's trannys. I have different modes to drive in, Normal, sport tune, and manual. I can start off the line in 1st, 2nd, 3rd. tap shift to hold any gear. I run a NP 205 (2:1) low range. 5:38 gears. With the 4:1 st gear I still have a good low 1st gear in high range and I can do almost 90 in Low range. I ended up running low range from pit 2 to the finish in 2019 because I forgot to shit to hi. I did not get passed, but passed a few on the way to a top 10 finish in class. Any of the 8-10 speed trannys would shift too much. Hard to do if you are tap shifting and bouncing around. As far as a quick shift to reverse, I use a Art Carr shifter and have the gates cut out so it can go straight from 3-reverse pretty quick. 3rd is where the sport tune and tap shift work.

I also think I heard Miller is only running about 650 hp.

 

[Provience]

1st and top OD are basically the same for the 6/8/10

If you could get the deep 1st gear, a 4spd with 4+:1 first and 1:1 4th would be just fine for a great many rigs

 

[matzell]

1st and top OD are basically the same for the 6/8/10

If you could get the deep 1st gear, a 4spd with 4+:1 first and 1:1 4th would be just fine for a great many rigs

I think you an put a 2.75 in a th400 but nothing lower. A friend of mine described a 400 as gears spread out like a hookers legs.

 

[Provience]

I think you an put a 2.75 in a th400 but nothing lower. A friend of mine described a 400 as gears spread out like a hookers legs.

Yeah it took decades for automatics to come off their notion that a 2.x:1 first gear with torque converter was "just as good" as a 4or6:1 first in a standard trans.

Of course, nobody is trying to run a wide ratio zf5 or zf6 or sm465

That'd be Ludacris to ask these kids to deal with 3 pedals [JR gets all the bonus points for the standard trans 4cyl bronco this year]

If you are going overboard on power, the real narrow rpm drop isn't so important


Edit: just my thoughts, back to regular scheduled tech tall from people that'd know more

 

[arse_sidewards]

If you are going overboard on power, the real narrow rpm drop isn't so important

I've said that before. Granny 4spd makes a lot of sense behind a ecoboost and the overall build is probably cheaper than a worked over FE or big block and a 6+spd automtic. (for general purpose builds, not ultra4 shit)

 

[Bebop]

Shannon Campbell stated in an interview from pit#2 that he leaned out the engine for some reason and was burning plug wires and plugs.
There is a point when you have to step away and let a professional tune your engine. At this level I would say 100% let a pro tune it.
For the cost of some of these engines I would want 8 pyrometers to get logged...but I am unsure of software or ecu's that can convert that data into injector trim in real time I'm sure it exists.

i heard a rumor someone was working on utilizing cylinder telemetry to manage fuel maps, it just takes money to make happen.

Totally achievable with a starlink and a $3000 ECU. The problem is finding the guy that knows what to do behind the laptop.

On the 6+ speed trans. I think I heard only 1 car in the whole 2 days mentioned having a 6l80/90e.

Unfortunately due to them being a 100% computer controlled shift you can't Manual valve body them all you can do is the paddle shifters or select shift up and down I believe. Can't hit reverse quick on that setup.

Not true on the ZF 8hp. There is no shifter anymore. You can absolutely program a button to be reverse from any forward gear.

THIS! A few years ago I was chatting with Jason and he was looking at the 850RE (JL/JT), iirc it was finding a decent stand alone controller for the trans that was the problem.

That trans is a little small. The 8Hp70 from behind the 1500 Rams would be my pick. As far as ECUs, they are here now. It's absolutely not a problem anymore.

VW VR6 is a small, but powerful engine.



Can take 600 hp on the stock bottom end.

edit - The VR6 looks to be 400lbs or so, heavy, so that's not the solution

They won't take 600hp on stock bottom end, that's for sure.

You were exactly who I was thinking of when I made that statement. You have a bouncer that needs fucktons of hp 1/4mi at a time, not long enough to heat up. 700hp on the factory tune should be of interest to you but you don't think of anything outside your LS fanboy bubble.

I have worked and fabricated on more Ultra4 cars than you. And I'm not an LS fanboy. I just know that they are the cheapest and easiest way to get hp in a small package. If you give me unlimited money I'm not going that route.

how big is the 10sp, can you make it fully manual?

It's not possible because there are no manual systems in the transmission anymore. Everything is electronic. Not even a mecanical shifter.

I think you an put a 2.75 in a th400 but nothing lower. A friend of mine described a 400 as gears spread out like a hookers legs.

TH400 Low Gear Planetary w/ 2.97 First Gear; 1.57 Second Gear.

The planetary creates all of the different gear ratios that a transmission is able to produce. An automatic transmission contains two complete planetary gearsets folded together into one component. A planetary gearset has three main components: Sun Gear, Planet Gears and Carrier along with a...

blowbyracing.com

No idea how strong they are but lower options exist. I think I even saw a 3.5 somewhere.

 

[Winchested]

Very cool did not know it could be done that well.

Thanks for sharing.

I have a 6L80 in my car with internals and tune by Zero Gravity, same guy who builds Levi's trannys. I have different modes to drive in, Normal, sport tune, and manual. I can start off the line in 1st, 2nd, 3rd. tap shift to hold any gear. I run a NP 205 (2:1) low range. 5:38 gears. With the 4:1 st gear I still have a good low 1st gear in high range and I can do almost 90 in Low range. I ended up running low range from pit 2 to the finish in 2019 because I forgot to shit to hi. I did not get passed, but passed a few on the way to a top 10 finish in class. Any of the 8-10 speed trannys would shift too much. Hard to do if you are tap shifting and bouncing around. As far as a quick shift to reverse, I use a Art Carr shifter and have the gates cut out so it can go straight from 3-reverse pretty quick. 3rd is where the sport tune and tap shift work.

I also think I heard Miller is only running about 650 hp.

 

[Provience]

I wouldn't think a 3.5 would fit inside the th400 case. For basically everybody, a junkyard 6spd case with fancy guts is the solid option with only a minor size and weight penalty

 

[Bebop]

If your going hardshell, get one with custom pour foam insert. Otherwise they will never fit right.

I've riden in sparco's, corbas. Neither one fit me. I won't get in one without a custom insert anymore. For personal stuff, I will stick with Mastercraft 3g's. I've had thousands of race miles in them with several high speed crashes, never an issue.

Got any pointer on a custom foam insert manufacturer ?

You've met me. I'm a tall stick. I feel like a hardshell would hold me better than the PRPs I have now.
The 3G has seat belt slots that are too low for me.

The comfiest seat I've ever sat in was a custom height gen 1 PRP podium. I called PRP and they told me they didn't make custom Podiums. I told them I saw one and they told me it was a sponsored racer only deal.
Now they don't make Gen1s anymore and the Gen2s are far from being as comfortable to me.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I have a 6L80 in my car with internals and tune by Zero Gravity, same guy who builds Levi's trannys. I have different modes to drive in, Normal, sport tune, and manual. I can start off the line in 1st, 2nd, 3rd. tap shift to hold any gear. I run a NP 205 (2:1) low range. 5:38 gears. With the 4:1 st gear I still have a good low 1st gear in high range and I can do almost 90 in Low range. I ended up running low range from pit 2 to the finish in 2019 because I forgot to shit to hi. I did not get passed, but passed a few on the way to a top 10 finish in class. Any of the 8-10 speed trannys would shift too much. Hard to do if you are tap shifting and bouncing around. As far as a quick shift to reverse, I use a Art Carr shifter and have the gates cut out so it can go straight from 3-reverse pretty quick. 3rd is where the sport tune and tap shift work.

I also think I heard Miller is only running about 650 hp.

Good to hear, I'm a 6+ speed auto fan Boi and have been curious about that exact combo for racing.

I heard someone mention the 8l80e may be easier to tune because it has an external tcu? Also has an even lower 4.56 1st gear. A 1.6:1 scs would net only slightly taller crawl and a 30% or whatever higher top speed.

You could probably tune out a few gears if shifting too much was an issue.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I wouldn't think a 3.5 would fit inside the th400 case. For basically everybody, a junkyard 6spd case with fancy guts is the solid option with only a minor size and weight penalty

6l80e is actually smaller than a 4l80e in some ways

Also 20lbs lighter and holds less fluid.

 

[Provience]

Narrower=good

Less fluid=bad

Surprised it's lighter

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Narrower=good

Less fluid=bad

Surprised it's lighter

Seemed like there was a lot of myths about for a while. "it's huge" "it's 6" longer" "it's super heavy"

I get what you mean about it holing less fluid, but could easily be made up for with a different or modified pan and or different cooling.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Got any pointer on a custom foam insert manufacturer ?

You've met me. I'm a tall stick. I feel like a hardshell would hold me better than the PRPs I have now.
The 3G has seat belt slots that are too low for me.

The comfiest seat I've ever sat in was a custom height gen 1 PRP podium. I called PRP and they told me they didn't make custom Podiums. I told them I saw one and they told me it was a sponsored racer only deal.
Now they don't make Gen1s anymore and the Gen2s are far from being as comfortable to me.

That Coreabu seat I had in my car fit me perfectly and you and I are built very much alike. It's just sitting here......

Edit: EIS Custom Molded Seat Insert Kit - Racetech Seats USA

 

[2big bronco]

I've said that before. Granny 4spd makes a lot of sense behind a ecoboost and the overall build is probably cheaper than a worked over FE or big block and a 6+spd automtic. (for general purpose builds, not ultra4 shit)

You know the manual behind the ecoboost bronco is a 7spd with 6.5- 1st right

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Granny 4 speed splits suck even with a V8

 

[Provience]

Seemed like there was a lot of myths about for a while. "it's huge" "it's 6" longer" "it's super heavy"

I get what you mean about it holing less fluid, but could easily be made up for with a different or modified pan and or different cooling.

Significantly more rectangle means they need a much larger doghouse for the same vehicle in the same spot, hence the bigness

I'm surprised it's lighter. If there was an aftermarket controller for a 6r140 [or whatver gm equivalent heavier duty one is] that'd be a sweet base for a swap in a high power rig

 

[Provience]

You know the manual behind the ecoboost bronco is a 7spd with 6.5- 1st right

Yes, but it's behind an ecoboost and not built for 700+hp

 

[Treefrog]

Anyone have real numbers on what a small boosted engine wieghs vs an n/a aluminum LS?

I have thought about using a turbo K24 in my rig to "save wieght" but given the same drivetrain otherwise. I feel like a turbo, piping and I/C eat up those wieght davings really quickly.

The 300hp NA honda V6 may be the only way to realistically save wieght over an aluminum block LS.

You could maybe drop to a smaller trans to save, what? 25 lbs? But is it worth it?

If I am remembering correctly LSs are in the 430 lb range.

From Wikipedia's Ford Ecoboost page:

And power ratings for the second gen 3.5:

So about the same as an LS. An aluminum V8 is probably ahead accounting for cooling.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

If I am remembering correctly LSs are in the 430 lb range.

From Wikipedia's Ford Ecoboost page:

And power ratings for the second gen 3.5:

So about the same as an LS. An aluminum V8 is probably ahead accounting for cooling.

Right, but the LS doesn't need charge pipes or an I/C, does the 3.5 wieght include turbskies?

K24 is 285 ish lbs according to 1 sec on google. But turbo, oil lines, blah blah, ad up. My guess is there really is just not that much saving to be had unless it's a tiny sub 2.0L 4 cyl.

 

[Treefrog]

Right, but the LS doesn't need charge pipes or an I/C, does the 3.5 wieght include turbskies?

K24 is 285 ish lbs according to 1 sec on google. But turbo, oil lines, blah blah, ad up. My guess is there really is just not that much saving to be had unless it's a tiny sub 2.0L 4 cyl.

I don't know what Wikipedia's weight includes but I would guess it includes the turbos.

I think the weight savings comes from being really small, or making power through rpm. Less torque for the same power means a smaller trans can be used.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Right, but the LS doesn't need charge pipes or an I/C, does the 3.5 wieght include turbskies?

K24 is 285 ish lbs according to 1 sec on google. But turbo, oil lines, blah blah, ad up. My guess is there really is just not that much saving to be had unless it's a tiny sub 2.0L 4 cyl.

And then you have to figure out and solve the oiling issues you will most likely experience unless going straight to a dry sump oiling system. Oiling system problems off-road have long since been solved on the common American V8's we use so it's another one of those "easy button" things that keeps everyone using the common engines.

 

[Winchested]

And then you have to figure out and solve the oiling issues you will most likely experience unless going straight to a dry sump oiling system. Oiling system problems off-road have long since been solved on the common American V8's we use so it's another one of those "easy button" things that keeps everyone using the common engines.

Accumulator no? Simple solution to racing.

 

[Provience]

And then you have to figure out and solve the oiling issues you will most likely experience unless going straight to a dry sump oiling system. Oiling system problems off-road have long since been solved on the common American V8's we use so it's another one of those "easy button" things that keeps everyone using the common engines.

Dry sump is the way to go

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Accumulator no? Simple solution to racing.

Accumulator is only good for a few seconds and isn't a fix for not being able to keep oil around the pickup tube in off camber or rough high speed situations.

 

[Weasel]

Accumulator no? Simple solution to racing.

Can be but they are a pain as once it goes it's a pain in the butt to recharge it.

But yeah it's really hard to get reliable power from anything non-ls and a significant weight reduction.

Miller had a 900 some horse engine and it didn't stick around cause he could grenade parts at will. He dropped it down for reliability and being able to run closer to the top end with less breakage. I'd also agree that there are better places to save weight then the engine, if you can find something that has 300-400 hp, reliable, and easy to package seems like might be a good route.

 

[Provience]

Us shift just put a youtube video up the other day with their 10r80 swap progress, said hoping for end of year to have 10r80, 6L90 and 6r140 controllers by the end of this year

That'd be dope, take away a big step of custom tuning learning curve stuff for the everyman

 

[Bebop]

Dry sump is the way to go

Absolutely. But again, weight and complexity.

Bombers / Miller and some other front runners are still wet sump.