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Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

arse_sidewards said:
I'm not saying to just throw a PTO clutch on there but these vehicles can get bound up and climb a straight rock without even coming close to breaking anything. You'd think that the space between that and the force you get with a shock load to tune something to slip when breaking something almost certainly guarantees you won't be winning.
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Totally engineered to run a 100mph
 
Bebop said:
Totally engineered to run a 100mph
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If you're gonna be an obtuse piece of shit you should copy the professionals and a) move to a subdivision in an arid shithole (yes, parts of Texas meet this criteria) b) don't quote the comment where I literally say I don't expect to just slap a PTO clutch on there.
 
ridered3 said:
Shaft carnage for example
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I take it this was Horschels IFS/IRS car? I would have thought being independent front and rear would have helped protect the driveshaft from rock hits. Maybe he just overpowered it?

Interesting thoughts on going to IRS in the future. I haven't seen that working out for any of the current teams, yet. Keep in mind trophy trucks are still using solid axle rears and have been for a long time. I'm sure there have been others, but the only IRS trophy truck that comes to mind was Ivan Stewarts old toyota truck. I recall a buggy discussion, where they were talking about the pros and cons of solid axle rear vs IRS, and the general consensus was there was a slight on track advantage with IRS, but a major maintenance advantage with the solid axle.

I have to say, I like this race. It creates many perplexing issues from a design standpoint. Almost everything rockcrawler is exactly the opposite of going fast. Want low unsprung weight to go fast? Nope, we need water in the tires to hold the frontend down. We do need the sprung weight in the chassis to help soak up the hits, nope crawlers need to be light to get up the rocks. Independent steers so much better at speed, nope we need 50deg of steering, and the cross loading of the solid axle actually helps give us traction in the rocks. Granted some of this is a bit extreme, but it goes to show some of the differences that must be sorted out.
 
Ghetto Fab. said:
I take it this was Horschels IFS/IRS car? I would have thought being independent front and rear would have helped protect the driveshaft from rock hits. Maybe he just overpowered it?

Interesting thoughts on going to IRS in the future. I haven't seen that working out for any of the current teams, yet. Keep in mind trophy trucks are still using solid axle rears and have been for a long time. I'm sure there have been others, but the only IRS trophy truck that comes to mind was Ivan Stewarts old toyota truck. I recall a buggy discussion, where they were talking about the pros and cons of solid axle rear vs IRS, and the general consensus was there was a slight on track advantage with IRS, but a major maintenance advantage with the solid axle.

I have to say, I like this race. It creates many perplexing issues from a design standpoint. Almost everything rockcrawler is exactly the opposite of going fast. Want low unsprung weight to go fast? Nope, we need water in the tires to hold the frontend down. We do need the sprung weight in the chassis to help soak up the hits, nope crawlers need to be light to get up the rocks. Independent steers so much better at speed, nope we need 50deg of steering, and the cross loading of the solid axle actually helps give us traction in the rocks. Granted some of this is a bit extreme, but it goes to show some of the differences that must be sorted out.
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Correct on that being the shaft out of Paul's IFS/IRS/4Ws racer. I was also surprised it would have broken a shaft considering the overall setup, but imagine too many horsepressures took it out.

Very true on a perplexing issue of design issues. There truly isn't a perfect setup, since they all have various tradeoffs.
 
Ghetto Fab. said:
I have to say, I like this race. It creates many perplexing issues from a design standpoint. Almost everything rockcrawler is exactly the opposite of going fast. Want low unsprung weight to go fast? Nope, we need water in the tires to hold the frontend down. We do need the sprung weight in the chassis to help soak up the hits, nope crawlers need to be light to get up the rocks. Independent steers so much better at speed, nope we need 50deg of steering, and the cross loading of the solid axle actually helps give us traction in the rocks. Granted some of this is a bit extreme, but it goes to show some of the differences that must be sorted out.
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Driving style seems to play a big part of how well each style rig performs.

"Crawling at speed" versus "rock racing" is probably the best way I'd describe it. Some of the smoother drivers drive like they are trail crawling, just at a faster pace; this favors solid axle. And then there are the desert race guys want to bash through or pop over rocks at the highest speed possible; this favors burly IFS. We've seen success with both styles and both rigs.
 
Bebop said:
I'm going to shell seats.
What model of sparcos did you end up getting ? And do you know what model of PRPs Tim got ? I was looking towards the Alphas, but if you're telling me they're not much smaller I may reconsider...
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I went with the QRT-L. I'm right on the 34" waist line where they recommend the L. probably could have gotten away with the regular QRT. Tim has the prp alphas. he did gears on my rig a year or so ago and helped me design the seat mounts. he didn't come close to fitting in my L's. the alphas are definitely taller if you have a long torso.

EXTREMETOWNIE said:
I would also like some opinions on the shell seats.
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Night and day difference at speed. if you go fast or jump it's a must IMO. still noticeably better crawling but not as much as going fast. I don't have to reposition myself in the seat or re tighten lap belts mid race. I also feel like I'm more secure and don't move around as much inside the car. my back feels better after a race too. I'll never go back to suspension seats even in a trail car. after riding in the shells, they feel like sitting on a trampoline
 
cdemart2 said:
did you sit on the driver's or passenger side? when I had the prp seats mine was up and forward a little for visibility. when I switched to sparcos I gained head and leg room when mounted in the same position. you'll have to try it again.

Tim is bigger than me and his seats were practically touching the floor and rear firewall. he's also switched to composite shell seats but his are PRP which are bigger than mine so not sure if he gained room like I did.

I do wish tim built them with another inch or two of headroom but it works as is.
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Drivers side when you still had PRPs. It was close to the controls but it felt small inside. I think your car is wider than mine is but my passenger compartment is pretty long.
 
cdemart2 said:
I went with the QRT-L. I'm right on the 34" waist line where they recommend the L. probably could have gotten away with the regular QRT. Tim has the prp alphas. he did gears on my rig a year or so ago and helped me design the seat mounts. he didn't come close to fitting in my L's. the alphas are definitely taller if you have a long torso.
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I'm 31" waist and 6'3. So you're saying the Alphas would be better for me ? I currently have +2" height, normal width PRPs

cdemart2 said:
Night and day difference at speed. if you go fast or jump it's a must IMO. still noticeably better crawling but not as much as going fast. I don't have to reposition myself in the seat or re tighten lap belts mid race. I also feel like I'm more secure and don't move around as much inside the car. my back feels better after a race too. I'll never go back to suspension seats even in a trail car. after riding in the shells, they feel like sitting on a trampoline
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That's exactly what I wanted to hear.
 
What am I trying to google other than "shell seats"? :flipoff2: Curious what you mean
 
I was discussing this with some friends this morning. Why don't teams consider the Hellcat platform and try to work through the issues with of clean air for the blower and work on fighting cooling systems vs. fighting tempermental high strung engine setups.

707 hp from the factory with an oem design to last 100,000+ miles. There are plenty of guys putting more power behind them in the 850-1000hp mark. You would assume they could last 160-180 miles.

Scherer lost KOH last year with a hurt motor, the Campbells are fighting engine issues the past couple years. We have heard of reliability issues with these high hp motors. I believe Dodge has thousands and thousands of hours testing a 700+ hp and they can take advantage of that.

I heard on the live feed that Scherer has gone to a "european style" air cleaner setup pulling clean air from the front of the car with a GIANT paper filter for more filtration. Would that be enough to keep these a supercharger happy with clean air? Cooling is another issue but it seems forced induction has been written off years ago and maybe new technology can get past the issues from years ago?

the 8HP trans behind these motors are stout and have handled high HP, guys are going to an SCS case for strength, having 8 gears can help take care of the want for lower gearing with a single speed case.

Probably a stupid idea on my part but figured it could spark discussion. Money is no object for the top guys, teams used to be afaid of electronics and wanted simple but those days are over...we have computers in the shocks and starlink attached to the roof, whats a couple more computers :grinpimp:
 
06h3 said:
I was discussing this with some friends this morning. Why don't teams consider the Hellcat platform…
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Because this sport is dominated by chassis guys, not engine and trans tuning guys.

So if some idiot can’t install it by assembling cookie cutter harnesses and modules in accordance with a guide written for people who read at a 3rd grade level it may as well not exist.
 
06h3 said:
I was discussing this with some friends this morning. Why don't teams consider the Hellcat platform and try to work through the issues with of clean air for the blower and work on fighting cooling systems vs. fighting tempermental high strung engine setups.

707 hp from the factory with an oem design to last 100,000+ miles. There are plenty of guys putting more power behind them in the 850-1000hp mark. You would assume they could last 160-180 miles.

Scherer lost KOH last year with a hurt motor, the Campbells are fighting engine issues the past couple years. We have heard of reliability issues with these high hp motors. I believe Dodge has thousands and thousands of hours testing a 700+ hp and they can take advantage of that.

I heard on the live feed that Scherer has gone to a "european style" air cleaner setup pulling clean air from the front of the car with a GIANT paper filter for more filtration. Would that be enough to keep these a supercharger happy with clean air? Cooling is another issue but it seems forced induction has been written off years ago and maybe new technology can get past the issues from years ago?

the 8HP trans behind these motors are stout and have handled high HP, guys are going to an SCS case for strength, having 8 gears can help take care of the want for lower gearing with a single speed case.

Probably a stupid idea on my part but figured it could spark discussion. Money is no object for the top guys, teams used to be afaid of electronics and wanted simple but those days are over...we have computers in the shocks and starlink attached to the roof, whats a couple more computers :grinpimp:
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It's not a stupid idea.

I just don't think the blower setup has been successful for anyone in offroad endurance racing. The heat generated by it is insane and borderline impossible to manage.
You also have to deal with a fuel system that's a lot bigger than a 1000hp N/A engine.

I believe this setup would be great for a hardcore pre-runner but not for a KOH racer.

That said some people are trying (Levi Shirley with the LT5 engine) and making it to the finish line. So maybe there is something there.

Hellcat Engine + blower is also really heavy.

I'm also a fan of the 8HP trans. / SCS combo.



arse_sidewards said:
Because this sport is dominated by chassis guys, not engine and trans tuning guys.

So if some idiot can’t install it by assembling cookie cutter harnesses and modules in accordance with a guide written for people who read at a 3rd grade level it may as well not exist.
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You have no idea what you're talking about.
The Fun Havers cars have 50+k$ in custom wiring / controls.

And even if you wanted to go cookie cutter, Dodge already offers a standard crake engine ECU and harness for the Hellcat.
 
Shannon Campbell stated in an interview from pit#2 that he leaned out the engine for some reason and was burning plug wires and plugs.
There is a point when you have to step away and let a professional tune your engine. At this level I would say 100% let a pro tune it.
For the cost of some of these engines I would want 8 pyrometers to get logged...but I am unsure of software or ecu's that can convert that data into injector trim in real time I'm sure it exists.
 
miller/slawson/trentfab have the solid axle game sorted out. as dave mentioned in the live show, the bomber favors nimbleness in the rocks, while the trentfab favors the dezert and i think that miller falls right in between. there arent going to be huge game changing gains in the SA platform, its going to be small incremental changes that will have more effect on driver fatigue than anything. steering feel at speed is probably the area that will make the biggest difference.

ifs/sa is a proven platform that is here to stay. cv technology will be the next improvement that will have significant gains allowing for more steering angle, less track width and all the travels.

ifs/irs is an amazing platform, it just take an unlimited budget and an army to keep it prep'd properly. also you have no one to sell it to

without factory backing, the utv approach makes very little sense to because as i mentioned above its a ton of money and effort to prep. one upside is that you have a better chance at selling it to someone since for whatever reason people have no problem spending tons on money for/on them.

dave has a bomber and a prerunner now. he is going to start finding trails that will take a few years to burn in bypasses, so the technical rocks are coming back and based on what im seeing on the lakebed people are forgetting that its a ROCK race.

slawson, miller, byler are not going to run away with a race. however they are always there to capitalize on the misfortunes of others.

live valve is cool, but out of reach unless you are on fox's favorite list and i dont think it brings enough value to write the check yourself.
 
RustyC said:
Shannon Campbell stated in an interview from pit#2 that he leaned out the engine for some reason and was burning plug wires and plugs.
There is a point when you have to step away and let a professional tune your engine. At this level I would say 100% let a pro tune it.
For the cost of some of these engines I would want 8 pyrometers to get logged...but I am unsure of software or ecu's that can convert that data into injector trim in real time I'm sure it exists.
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i think the plug wires were the culprit. first time with a big block, you think things are safe and dont realize how hot things get.

i heard a rumor someone was working on utilizing cylinder telemetry to manage fuel maps, it just takes money to make happen.
 
06h3 said:
the Campbells are fighting engine issues the past couple years.
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CBM was their motor people for a while, however CBM had some internal issues and quality suffered. a lot of people less popular as the campbells had a similar experience.
 
arse_sidewards said:
Because this sport is dominated by chassis guys, not engine and trans tuning guys.

So if some idiot can’t install it by assembling cookie cutter harnesses and modules in accordance with a guide written for people who read at a 3rd grade level it may as well not exist.
Click to expand...
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I think they can figure it out... Lots of other options for harnesses and stuff to.
 
06h3 said:
I was discussing this with some friends this morning. Why don't teams consider the Hellcat platform and try to work through the issues with of clean air for the blower and work on fighting cooling systems vs. fighting tempermental high strung engine setups.

707 hp from the factory with an oem design to last 100,000+ miles. There are plenty of guys putting more power behind them in the 850-1000hp mark. You would assume they could last 160-180 miles.

Scherer lost KOH last year with a hurt motor, the Campbells are fighting engine issues the past couple years. We have heard of reliability issues with these high hp motors. I believe Dodge has thousands and thousands of hours testing a 700+ hp and they can take advantage of that.

I heard on the live feed that Scherer has gone to a "european style" air cleaner setup pulling clean air from the front of the car with a GIANT paper filter for more filtration. Would that be enough to keep these a supercharger happy with clean air? Cooling is another issue but it seems forced induction has been written off years ago and maybe new technology can get past the issues from years ago?

the 8HP trans behind these motors are stout and have handled high HP, guys are going to an SCS case for strength, having 8 gears can help take care of the want for lower gearing with a single speed case.

Probably a stupid idea on my part but figured it could spark discussion. Money is no object for the top guys, teams used to be afaid of electronics and wanted simple but those days are over...we have computers in the shocks and starlink attached to the roof, whats a couple more computers :grinpimp:
Click to expand...

I think the bigger question for that motor is...

How many have been successfully used in motorsports?

Yeah, plenty of Chrysler made cars get drag raced or street driven with 700-1000hp. But how many of those engines are ran at 4-7k RPM for 6 hours?

The top guys aren't using any factory crate engines anyway, it's 100% custom. And privateers want proven crate engines with widespread support (Chevy or Ford).
 
One example of making boost work was "hells bells." I was chatting with him at Ridgecrest when he had his rig break back in 2019?

He is a bad example of an U4 car, and had constant issues with the rest of the car....that was size, weight, tire size (54s) and rockwells but I did ask him what motor he had? He said it was an blown LS7 with 1000hp. I asked how he kept it cool and he said it took YEARS but he had like 2 radiators and 2 intercoolers. He didnt have the money or backing by the top dogs but he figured it out. Did he run as fast as the top dogs? No, as hard? I am not sure, his setup was hard on parts. I think its possible and a 30k 1000hp hellaphant on pump gas sounds appealing.

What is funny is that my buddy is driving home from KOH right now and he recovered Raul on Big Johnson after multiple attempts to get him right side up. He was telling me how half the cars to go through there had an engine that sounded unhappy. I didn't provoke the conversation, he just mentioned it.
Ghetto Fab. said:
Stupid question is stupid, but how much power do you really need, vs not breaking and actually finishing?
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That is another good question. I believe Randy Slauson went backwards and runs less HP than he did years back. I remember hearing that on the talent tank. I used 700-1000hp as an example because the top IFS guys are running that much power.
 
Yotota said:
I think the bigger question for that motor is...

How many have been successfully used in motorsports?

Yeah, plenty of Chrysler made cars get drag raced or street driven with 700-1000hp. But how many of those engines are ran at 4-7k RPM for 6 hours?

The top guys aren't using any factory crate engines anyway, it's 100% custom. And privateers want proven crate engines with widespread support (Chevy or Ford).
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I feel like they are really only wide open for an hour or two at the desert lap, then wide open on and off between desert sections. Ian mentioned on the live feed when they idle for too long at the start they sound like shit when taking off, they aren't designed to idle.

I am looking at things from a ground up approach, not a, what has worked in the past, because the top guys will spend money and they have had failures that cost them a race.

I'll admit, I am not a motorsports engine genius or an engine genius in any avenue but U4 had to solve problems that didnt have answers....and maybe its time to find new answers to existing problems.
 
Ghetto Fab. said:
Stupid question is stupid, but how much power do you really need, vs not breaking and actually finishing?
Click to expand...

06h3 said:
One example of making boost work was "hells bells." I was chatting with him at Ridgecrest when he had his rig break back in 2019?

He is a bad example of an U4 car, and had constant issues with the rest of the car....that was size, weight, tire size (54s) and rockwells but I did ask him what motor he had? He said it was an blown LS7 with 1000hp. I asked how he kept it cool and he said it took YEARS but he had like 2 radiators and 2 intercoolers. He didnt have the money or backing by the top dogs but he figured it out. Did he run as fast as the top dogs? No, as hard? I am not sure, his setup was hard on parts. I think its possible and a 30k 1000hp hellaphant on pump gas sounds appealing.

What is funny is that my buddy is driving home from KOH right now and he recovered Raul on Big Johnson after multiple attempts to get him right side up. He was telling me how half the cars to go through there had an engine that sounded unhappy. I didn't provoke the conversation, he just mentioned it.

That is another good question. I believe Randy Slauson went backwards and runs less HP than he did years back. I remember hearing that on the talent tank. I used 700-1000hp as an example because the top IFS guys are running that much power.
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don't quote me but i believe he tuned the motor down to 400hp
 
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