Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

[mobil1syn]

Serious question...... Do you really believe that they are running anything close to stock F&R diffs? And do you believe that they hadn't tested extensively on 37's "at race pace" before deciding to go with them? Like tribal4krawler said in his post, they had every intention of running the 37's but couldn't get enough wheels made in time to do it. 17" beadlock wheels for UTV's with the proper offset are non-existent so they were having Hess Motorsports here in Texas make them one off CNC billet wheels......

they have to gain AN AVERVAGE OF 10MPH to be competitive, 37s are not going to do that. pushing hard with 37s is going to expose the weak link. test pace and race pace for the podium are different things.

the other thing to consider is that i would argue theyre 95% of the way to be as fast as possible in the dezert, so that time will have to come in the rocks which is a tough cookie to crack.

as a socal native, sxs owners are fleas that are ruining the dezert. as someone who follows u4 im intrigued by canams effort but i am just not seeing how they pick up that much pace to be competitive at KOH. do i think they could be competitive enough to take a podium after the top guys have bad luck, without question. do i think they will be able to outdrive and out pace the fastest guys in the sport, no way jose. the platform is too fragile

 

[Bebop]

I would agree with mobil1syn on this one.

Although I'd love to see all the big names have a problem and a SXS winning.

Heads would explode

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

If the part about Dave making a minimum weight requirement rule for next years KOH 4400 race is true like Jesse posted, I'll take that as meaning that the top racers and sponsors in 4400 are taking notice of what the golf carts are doing at KOH in 4400 and want to stop the progression before it becomes embarrassing. It will also mean that the UNLIMITED class in U4 is now indeed limited because of golf carts. You really can't make that shit up.....

 

[mobil1syn]

If the part about Dave making a minimum weight requirement rule for next years KOH 4400 race is true like Jesse posted, I'll take that as meaning that the top racers and sponsors in 4400 are taking notice of what the golf carts are doing at KOH in 4400 and want to stop the progression before it becomes embarrassing. It will also mean that the UNLIMITED class in U4 is now indeed limited because of golf carts. You really can't make that shit up.....

uh u4 hasnt been unlimited in about 5yrs so theres thats.

dave also said in the live coverage he has no intentions of preventing them from racing.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

uh u4 hasnt been unlimited in about 5yrs so theres thats.

Other than safety rules what's not unlimited about 4400?

 

[ridered3]

If the part about Dave making a minimum weight requirement rule for next years KOH 4400 race is true like Jesse posted, I'll take that as meaning that the top racers and sponsors in 4400 are taking notice of what the golf carts are doing at KOH in 4400 and want to stop the progression before it becomes embarrassing. It will also mean that the UNLIMITED class in U4 is now indeed limited because of golf carts. You really can't make that shit up.....

Those comments about minimum weight were from the middle of 22’. Not sure if they were addressed or not with the updated rulebook for 23’ or not though.

Other than safety rules what's not unlimited about 4400?

I’d imagine he’s referring to Tireballs.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Those comments about minimum weight were from the middle of 22’. Not sure if they were addressed or not with the updated rulebook for 23’ or not though.

I didn't realize any of that conversation was that long ago. Oops

I’d imagine he’s referring to Tireballs.

Wasn't that rule implemented because Dave didn't want 1000's of Tireballs scattered all over JV due to the litter aspect of that, or something else entirely?

 

[Weasel]

As discussed on an earlier post, one of the UFO cars was posted as an example of IFS geometry. Arm length and angles can be designed to do whatever you want with roll center and camber change throughout the travel. Even mimic the "parallel tires during articulation" behavior that a solid axle inherently has. But also as someone said, CV plunge has to be taken into account too...

This go round and round and not sure what it's about. IFS you can adjust the arms so the tire is perpendicular to the ground during travel. It's usually close to the amount of body roll of the vehicle. CV plunge is a non-issue if setup right, and yes that's even with steering. This is all pretty basic suspension stuff? Not dissin on anything but it's not exactly anything cutting edge.

The UTV portals are interesting, a local here had some set but they didn't holdup very well. But I don't know which brand it was though so not alot of help.

Anyways this has gone from a tech discussion to chit chat between people that have made parts vs people who haven't.

SXS winner has been limited to a very small group of very good drivers. It hasn't been any given Sunday for random SXS dudes placing. And there isn't some crazy thing they are doing that hasn't been tried before, materials or design wise. Shannon builds golf carts and seems to be doing very well at it, they haven't switched to them for the 4400 class. Bigger tires are more stress on everything, same as going from 35's to 37's on a D30 or toyota axles (and 200hp?). It leads to more of the snap crackle pop fun. Size wise it's not like the SXS some micro machines, they are like 102" WB and 72" track right? Not so much different then a typical crawler. What are Slawson and Blyers cars?


Tireballs is who knows why. I keep hearing it's cause he wanted money from the Tireball guy and TireBalls said no way. I've heard the litter argument as well. I think the safety aspect of it makes logical sense as people were ramming rocks as insane speeds as they figured the tire balls would keep the tires going. But lots of others don't get that.

 

[ridered3]

I didn't realize any of that conversation was that long ago. Oops





Wasn't that rule implemented because Dave didn't want 1000's of Tireballs scattered all over JV due to the litter nature of it or something else entirely?

No problem there. No updates to the build from Jesse since then.

I just did a keyword search of the 2023 rulebook and there wasn’t a reference to a minimum weight.

Don’t remember the full details on outlawing Tireballs though but he claimed it was a safety issue. Basically the drivers could exceed their safe speed since they didn’t have to worry about flats due to Tireballs.

 

[Isdtbower]

as a socal native, sxs owners are fleas that are ruining the dezert.

Sand or Desert Lice. But I still love them for what they are and make tons of people happy. ...And bring some jerks.

 

[Isdtbower]

Don’t remember the full details on outlawing Tireballs though but he claimed it was a safety issue. Basically the drivers could exceed their safe speed since they didn’t have to worry about flats due to Tireballs.

All you need to know. Disliked someone at the time was my take. And not supporting the event.. But he may have wanted the tire wars so they would have to make them better. It did help to add more sponsors. The dez guys were already using liners so he couldn't use that excuse. I don't think he has tried anything like that since. Let it and the drivers go where it wants to go. But you will probably get a Dave call. Kinda funny in the community.

EDIT: As tough as it is to get a liner in a tire, get a special wheel for them, and then mount. It is not common. Balls were just an expense to get hit with a pillow. .

 

[ridered3]

All you need to know. Disliked someone at the time was my take. And not supporting the event.. But he may have wanted the tire wars so they would have to make them better.It helped to add more sponsors. The dez guys were already using liners so he couldn't use that excuse. I don't think he has tried anything like that since. Let it and the drivers go whee it wants to go. But you will probably get a Dave call. Kinda funny in the community.

Ah that’s makes sense for why Tireballs were illegal yet Tire Liners were legal.

 

[vetteboy79]

That was because of a blown belt literally entering the short course. Made for some pretty entertaining footage didn’t it 😂😂

It was entertaining, and good on them...but hey SLOWPOKE693 , does a belt count as a driveline failure, or is that not part of the diffs or transfercase?

And more broadly speaking, is the belt generally considered a consumable item in this kind of racing? Is ~200 miles (or less, as I believe that was the UTV race, not 4400) acceptable and you just assume you're gonna have to put a new one in along the way?

That seems dumb if so.

edit: and while I may be talking a little bit of shit, just 'cuz it's fun when the fastest SxS got beat by 3 solid axle cars and lost to the slowest of those by over an hour, I really wonder where those supposed performance gains are gonna come from. It's not gonna be from just bolting 37's on and hoping everyone else craps out sooner. Honest question: belts at every fuel stop? Is that expected/anticipated/already done?

 

[tribal4krawler]

It was entertaining, and good on them...but hey SLOWPOKE693 , does a belt count as a driveline failure, or is that not part of the diffs or transfercase?

And more broadly speaking, is the belt generally considered a consumable item in this kind of racing? Is ~200 miles (or less, as I believe that was the UTV race, not 4400) acceptable and you just assume you're gonna have to put a new one in along the way?

That seems dumb if so.

edit: and while I may be talking a little bit of shit, just 'cuz it's fun when the fastest SxS got beat by 3 solid axle cars and lost to the slowest of those by over an hour, I really wonder where those supposed performance gains are gonna come from. It's not gonna be from just bolting 37's on and hoping everyone else craps out sooner. Honest question: belts at every fuel stop? Is that expected/anticipated/already done?

So that was the stock class car that blew the belt, and from what I understand CanAm specifically wanted them to run as absolutely stock as possible. Belts are definitely a consumable, unfortunately. If somebody created a cvt belt that wouldn’t wear out while also not wearing out the primary and secondary it would be a game changer for sure. Lol. I’ve heard rumors of can am possibly going to a transmission for the next iteration

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Also, they can change a belt faster than most U4 drivers can change tires. So there is that.

 

[Bebop]

I’ve heard rumors of can am possibly going to a transmission for the next iteration

They better
Fuck belts

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

And I just wanted to add..... I'm not a fan of belts.

Up until Honda released the Talon in 2019 with a real 6spd transmission and a real clutch, I had no desire to ever own a UTV. Still wouldn't own one with a belt.

 

[JR4X]

Got in trouble with Dave over the whole tireballs thing. I’m an avid fan, and I think tireballs are a safety item in several ways. Shannon Campbell got drunk one night and made a post on Facebook calling Ultra4 ultragay for banning tireballs.

I was also upset about the implementation of a no tireballs rule. I don’t even remember what I said but I added a colorful comment to Shannons FB post. That evening I got a phone call from Dave personally to discuss the topic. This was in 2018 so the details are a little lost on me. He didn’t yell at me but gave me a talking to. I haven’t made a comment about TB’s ever since.

 

[mobil1syn]

So that was the stock class car that blew the belt, and from what I understand CanAm specifically wanted them to run as absolutely stock as possible. Belts are definitely a consumable, unfortunately. If somebody created a cvt belt that wouldn’t wear out while also not wearing out the primary and secondary it would be a game changer for sure. Lol. I’ve heard rumors of can am possibly going to a transmission for the next iteration

so you have a built in drivetrain protection device that they are going to go away with.

Also, they can change a belt faster than most U4 drivers can change tires. So there is that.

u4 is to the point that changing a flat will take you out of contention, they need to run at full race pace and have a car that will survive without having to get out of the car.

 

[ridered3]

Response from Jesse about the lightweight 4400 build :( least I got a plug in for the site.

 

[Ghetto Fab.]

I know next to nothing about utvs, what is a normal cruise rpm for one. Say 60mph just cruisin on pavement?

I liked AgitatedPancake bringing up using transaxles again. I had though about those too. If one had enough trans gears you might be able to get a relatively decent cruise speed out of one, at least for a buggy. Light turbo 4cyl, with decent trans gearing spread, no t-case weight, and IFS IRS. It would be very utv like. I keep thinking about the 4cyl turbo 8spd trans combo that came in the early JLs, 5-1first gear and double overdrive on the top end. Thats a heavy trans though, and not setup as a transaxle. Off to go look at transaxles.

 

[RPS1030]

I know next to nothing about utvs, what is a normal cruise rpm for one. Say 60mph just cruisin on pavement?

60 easy personally

Saw a comment on a video of 1 car was over 95 on the lake bed and dumby wanted to see 100 and blew the belt.

 

[Isdtbower]

60 easy personally

Saw a comment on a video of 1 car was over 95 on the lake bed and dumby wanted to see 100 and blew the belt.

We did about 6 suspension passes at 80mph, in the big Dumont whoops, in a stock motored X3 and blew the belt. $100? Blew three that winter week.

Do UTV's consider Basketball size rocks at 60mph a nuisance rock?

TT's have tried cushioned hubs in the drivelines but they mostly melted. Since then, the torque converters are loose up till 5000rpm, and one way sprags in the front diffs to minimize front to rear shock. Discussed before but might be in some SXS's already. and hard to detect.

And considering Gomez only made up 2 minutes on Jason in 20 miles, with a motor down 3 cylinders and 60 mph max. Making up an hour or really 1.5 hours is going to be a struggle. I notice that none of the Racers or builders are in here defending positions. You also have to be careful about winning times. There was a time when Shannon and Jason would be ahead by over 1/2 hour plus. Now they are race smart to just win and save the car to make sure of a finish. Harder to do today but they would not race for those kind of leads. When Berger had to run for fuel for Scherer. They were down around an hour and a half behind the leaders. He finished about 30 minutes down. Maybe my point is that SXS's are not a race threat, but a good gauge of their progress as now toe-to-toe. And everyone is learning from that. Active shocks and narrower OoTire have come from them. IRS and IFS has been around for years. The SXS IRS was just a requirement for packaging the rear motor, trans, and xfer. Nothing new to this thread just for those tuneing in.

 

[Ghetto Fab.]

60 easy personally

Saw a comment on a video of 1 car was over 95 on the lake bed and dumby wanted to see 100 and blew the belt.

At what RPM is the motor spinning at though?

 

[Yotota]

This go round and round and not sure what it's about. IFS you can adjust the arms so the tire is perpendicular to the ground during travel. It's usually close to the amount of body roll of the vehicle. CV plunge is a non-issue if setup right, and yes that's even with steering. This is all pretty basic suspension stuff? Not dissin on anything but it's not exactly anything cutting edge.

...

Anyways this has gone from a tech discussion to chit chat between people that have made parts vs people who haven't.

SXS winner has been limited to a very small group of very good drivers. It hasn't been any given Sunday for random SXS dudes placing. And there isn't some crazy thing they are doing that hasn't been tried before, materials or design wise. Shannon builds golf carts and seems to be doing very well at it, they haven't switched to them for the 4400 class. Bigger tires are more stress on everything, same as going from 35's to 37's on a D30 or toyota axles (and 200hp?). It leads to more of the snap crackle pop fun. Size wise it's not like the SXS some micro machines, they are like 102" WB and 72" track right? Not so much different then a typical crawler. What are Slawson and Blyers cars?

I can't tell if you're agreeing, debating, or both. 😁

What do you think KOH/U4 and 4400 should do? With the current rules, custom IFS is only allowed in 4400 and and Open/Proto UTV. 4600 and the other UTV classes require stock mounting locations which is limiting.

 

[72Pstroke]

At what RPM is the motor spinning at though?

My Yamaha YXZ is spinning about 6k running 60 mph, with a 10,500 redline.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I can't tell if you're agreeing, debating, or both. 😁

What do you think KOH/U4 and 4400 should do? With the current rules, custom IFS is only allowed in 4400 and and Open/Proto UTV. 4600 and the other UTV classes require stock mounting locations which is limiting.

I don't think 4600 requires stock mounting points, just basically an unmodified frame, which almost ends up being the same thing.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I don't think 4600 requires stock mounting points, just basically an unmodified frame, which almost ends up being the same thing.

A Jeep long arm kit says you are wrong about the mounting points. So does JR4X's F and rear suspension on the Bronco

 

[Jeffh555]

At what RPM is the motor spinning at though?

CanAm X3 is about 6K at 60mph, did that for 300 miles in Baja on the highway back from a friend's bachelor party, motor didn't seem to mind.

 

[Jeffh555]

I don't think 4600 requires stock mounting points, just basically an unmodified frame, which almost ends up being the same thing.

A Jeep long arm kit says you are wrong about the mounting points. So does JR4X's F and rear suspension on the Bronco

KOH Rulebook:

4.8.4 Independent Suspensions are not allowed in the Modified class with the
following exception:
1) Independent Suspended vehicles must use OEM Factory Frame and OEM
Factory Body Style for that make/model year and the vehicle must have
been Independent for that make/model year.
2) Frame requirements will exceed class rules to include suspension

I wouldn't be surprised if the IFS rules were added after Brocky raced 4500