Didn't you have a set of UTV portals? Add that to you Talon weight and add about 80 more for tires.Do we have any idea what those UTV's in the 4400 race weighted race ready?
A single seat chassis to eliminate 200+ lbs of co-dawg and tubing, and portals sized for UTV weights, not full size boxes meant for 6000lb 700hp and 42" tired rigs adapted to fit a UTV would make that weight easy to achieve.
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Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?
- Thread starter SLOWPOKE693
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Price is relative of course. You know much better than I do here...
Would my hypothetical light 4400 car cost less than a UFO 4400 car? I would think so, by a significant margin. Maybe on par with a prepped Bomber 4400 car.
I know that we're talking values in the hundreds of thousands here. I casually watch the RDZ classifieds because window shopping is fun, and there are plenty of Class 1 and TT racecars with $500k and up build costs. I imagine that a UFO 4400 car would cost about the same.
So let's say that $200k could either buy a Bomber, or a light 4400 car... It would be an interesting debate to maximize the speed/dollar factor while being reliable enough to finish the race.
Or I'm talking out my ass, in which case please correct me. 😁
This is exactly where my thinking is with this topic.
If it's possible to build a smaller, lighter, faster car with FIS that cost around the same as a high end SA car, but 1/2 to 3/4 less than the current crop of IFS/FIS cars, it would be a no brainer to choose the "cheap" FIS car over the SA.
I never had a set of those. The current crop of UTV portals are marketed for the bolt on crowd that have no idea what the words leverage or scrub radius means and dont care as long as those 40" tractor tires and bling wheels makes them thd cool kid at the lovcl mud park. They are not good examples to go off of versus the CNC porn and engineering that 74Weld puts into theirs.
My car is not a good example of what a typical UTV weights either but It's right around #1500lbs full of fuel without me in it.
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Isdtbower
In for Tech
If you look at the geometry to the ground you will see that a SXS goes positive camber very quickly. It probably stays parallel with the frame...but not to the ground. Why they live.
A 4400 car should turn 38* in stuff for sure and even in droop as minimal pressure on the cv. Or you are really giving it up to the SA's.
Some SxS suspensions have much better geometry than others......
That's my Honda Talon R short course car with 18" of front travel and 21" of rear travel. And coincidentally enough a 5 link rear suspension design that looks identical to Loren Healey's FIS Bronco. Like exact copy but bigger identical.... 🤔
As discussed on an earlier post, one of the UFO cars was posted as an example of IFS geometry. Arm length and angles can be designed to do whatever you want with roll center and camber change throughout the travel. Even mimic the "parallel tires during articulation" behavior that a solid axle inherently has. But also as someone said, CV plunge has to be taken into account too...
arse_sidewards
Contrary to my ass
My shit only weight a little more than a UTV. Think a 16" dually wheel will fit over the portal and get the scrub back where it belongs?
My shit only weight a little more than a UTV. Think a 16" dually wheel will fit over the portal and get the scrub back where it belongs?
The 4" portals look like the have no problem fitting inside 15" wheels...
I think the issue would be not snapping the stub shafts off because of how tiny they seem to be....
Loren Healey's 4400 Bronco IRS suspension ....
My 2019 Honda Talon R rear suspension....
It's pretty hard to deny how similar the design is to each other.
My 2019 Honda Talon R rear suspension....
It's pretty hard to deny how similar the design is to each other.
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Isdtbower
In for Tech
I guess I am not up-to-date on numbers, but believe fuel towers and 100 gallon tanks are now the rage. Less than one minute fueling. Then figure in 1.5mpg with 110 octane race fuel. Still a golf cart.
Even thinking a Bomber build at the top level is close in $$ to an independent in ability is not adding up the numbers. If my budget was $200K, it would be a bomber...Even if my and fab time was only $0.15/ hour . Not picking a fight either just laying out why I had to multiply my Independent budget by 4x.
I think there is a big difference in spare parts taken to KOH. Seems like the bomber was off the lakebed looking, or getting a part rebuilt. IFS guys will usually have 1 -2 raceday spares of most, Qualifying parts, and the final set of raceday parts. I might be wrong but Lorens jump last year cost him the race later because he didn't trade out "rear hubs." And I bleed for those guys having to do shoots and other marketing requirements instead of under the car 100%.
a bomber is the lightest proven platform in ultra4. something more competitive and reliable for under $200k is a big challenge.
people have no idea how expensive high level sponsorship is.
8.8 IRS front diff, 4 gear portals since you have them
IFS design by dallas lund, weld it together yourself and use tube as much as you can to save on laser time, 86" outside of the tire shoot for 16" of travel, 40* of steering, steering would be some brain child of yours since your brain works well there.
oil/trans/steering coolers in the nose of the car
engine auto trans in the passenger seat
scs case with quick change gear sets for different races
driveshaft runs inbetween you and the engine
50 gallon cell behind the c-pillar, low as possible
radiator in the back window
spare tire behind axle line down low
rear suspension modeled after jordans using a 9" center
2 gear portals would be better because it would simplify the scs case but if we are running what you got, just make a fancy case.
what you end up with is an under powered, portaled, slightly smaller UFO. at this time i dont think there is another single seat that is competitive with the UFO stuff, but i think i read somewhere that someone is building a new single seat and im curious how it will turn out.
Cue everyone using a pressure program fueling system....
Isdtbower
In for Tech
Sorry, I didn't look close enough. But supposedly more safe than a tower. I bet the TT's had them if they needed to fuel.
Dump cans will not beat a 15' tower. Even two at a time. I think I saw dump cans in the Campbell pits but that might have been for the loaner.
Tower or low pressure system feeds thru a 4" pipe directly into the liner, and another 4" tube letting air exit. (For those not familiar) Pretty much standard in most other motorsports needing re-fueling.
What I don't see, is much training on any system. In TT, they have weekends just for training stops which also include 100 gallon fueling. The fuel guys are pro's, the fueling trainer, and generally paid. Look up Dry Breaks. About $1k for the set. Tanks can range from $10-???50 K depending on the complexity to get into nooks and crannies. The liners are just as complex. Outer tanks are steel or aluminum. Carbon fiber can not be put out once a fire gets going. Why interiors should not be carbon.
Dump cans will not beat a 15' tower. Even two at a time. I think I saw dump cans in the Campbell pits but that might have been for the loaner.
Tower or low pressure system feeds thru a 4" pipe directly into the liner, and another 4" tube letting air exit. (For those not familiar) Pretty much standard in most other motorsports needing re-fueling.
What I don't see, is much training on any system. In TT, they have weekends just for training stops which also include 100 gallon fueling. The fuel guys are pro's, the fueling trainer, and generally paid. Look up Dry Breaks. About $1k for the set. Tanks can range from $10-???50 K depending on the complexity to get into nooks and crannies. The liners are just as complex. Outer tanks are steel or aluminum. Carbon fiber can not be put out once a fire gets going. Why interiors should not be carbon.
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ridered3
Low Talent Wheelin
My 90ish gallon fuel cell was based on a discussion with Marcos back in Kentucky in 2018 or 2019 so I’m sure plenty has changed since then.
If that’s what they use in Trophy Trucks/T1’s, that what the Gomez crew uses. I was surprised to see the Campbell crew dumping gas jugs instead of using a fueling tower like in years past.
Isdtbower
In for Tech
That actually looks pretty good for a SXS. You can see the outside tires/wheel in just slightly positive camber to the ground (Maybe2*). Body roll causes that. There is enough air pressure or carcus stiffness in the tires to prevent roll-under. I have seen many 39"+ tires in 4400 tuck so far under that the outside edge is almost to the center of the wheel. Newer tires are much better. SXS's wanted lighter tires so I don't know how they are doing now..Some SxS suspensions have much better geometry than others......
That's my Honda Talon R short course car with 18" of front travel and 21" of rear travel. And coincidentally enough a 5 link rear suspension design that looks identical to Loren Healey's FIS Bronco. Like exact copy but bigger identical.... 🤔
This is the type of pictures you want to see to figure out your camber gain curve needs...With the now known body roll measurement. Compare to the old Red Dragon earlier. Keep it. Cheers.
See what you have in a full lock, full brake turn. That is where rolling happens so quick that most can't recover from that. Shannon is a master at recovery.
Edit: Oops the middle picture does show more positive camber. Maybe because the shock did not completely compress and not further into the gain curve. I might also be seeing rear toe in, but preferred as the toe in tends to steer the front out of a roll. Toe out will oversteer and hook you into rolling....My thoughts. Edit: Some of the FIS cars toe out. A SA can toe out too. 4400's were really bad before rear 4 bars...White knuckle at 70mph.
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DesertCJ
Name of Pheel...
What do you mean by this "4400's were really bad before rear 4 bars...White knuckle at 70mph." Just trying to figure out what you're referring to, 4 link or some type of independent suspension setup?
DesertCJ
Name of Pheel...
What do you mean by this "4400's were really bad before rear 4 bars...White knuckle at 70mph." Just trying to figure out what you're referring to, solid axle 4 link or some type of independent suspension setup?
Isdtbower
In for Tech
Rear suspensions were generally on leaf springs. As a axle moves up and down it can follow an arc which will move thatwheel forward or to the rear in the chassis. Now you have one wheel further forward which wants to steer the car ...perpendicular to the axle angle to straight ahead. Some of the rock crawlers actually liked that ...as they could turn easier around trees, rocks, etc. The undulating desert was new to rock crawlers so hitting a rock or similar in the rear was just like "bump steer." But now it is 100% avoided if possible. Some in here developed the equations to correct all this with 4bar links. Maybe someone can explain it better?
IRS can rear steer also. Usually there are 4 bars or trailing arm to locate the wheel hub with good geometry, and another bar to correct the toe change on articulation.
arse_sidewards
Contrary to my ass
Even before you get to IRS links really did a lot to solve rear bump steer simply by being longer and flatter and not changing length/arc as they cycled.
That’s exactly why we have this discussion going. Yes your theoretical build would be cheaper and lighter. Could it hang with a UFO car though is the question. At the regional races the one piloted by Paul Wolf is tough for anyone to beat. I may never build another straight axle race car again. I’m so sold on independent now which will make some people that know me shake their heads because of what a D bag I’ve been in the past about it.
here’s the reality as I see it. I’ve said it before but it’s hard to understand until you’ve rubbed tires with these guys on course under green flag conditions. You could GIVE me a million dollars a year and I would never have what it takes to beat Erik Miller, Loren Healey, Randy Slawson, Jason Scherer etc. I’ve co driven in 4400 cars, one really really good one. The pace we were running was above my abilities and we ran a 16th place pace. I can’t even see straight when we’re going that fast in the chop so I can’t fathom what it’s like inside of Paul Horschels car when he’s running away from everybody.
I don’t know that I will ever try to move up. I want to run where I’m competitive. The limited classes is where I feel I fit best. We have forces to be reconned with that come through giving you a genuine challenge at that level. They do it for a few years and move up. Casey Gilbert, Vaughn Gitten etc. If I tried 4400 with my current skill and dollar level I’d be lapped traffic trail plug guy with broken shit everyone’s making fun of on here.
DesertCJ
Name of Pheel...
OK. There were never really any 4400 cars on leaf springs. 4 links were already prevalant by the time the first race happened.
Now IRS, I'd say that's still not very common. Yeah theres some out there but a low %.
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I don’t have time right now to read through 17 pages, but I will say this. Certain sxs guys were prepared to run 37s this year but due to a lack of spare wheels (custom 17s had to be manufactured and they didn’t get as many as they wanted in time) they didn’t feel confident on racing on 37s. Next year it’ll be 37s for sure and I think a totally different ball game. They’ve done a lot of testing on 37s and feel they’ve found a good combination that works and is reliable. Tom wayes wont even be able to get close enough to them to try and rage nerf them in the rocks
Bebop
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Why didn't these ever catch on in U4? They have been on the market for years now and I don't think I've ever seen one used in a build.....
ULTRA NARROW IRS IFS DIFFS ULTRA 4 KING HAMMERS OFF ROAD RACING
Proformance Manufactures a range of Narrow Diffs to suit ULTRA 4 IFS SXS UTV and IRS vehicles. With INTERNAL CV Joints, the Diffs are much narrower than Traditional 9"www.proformance.com.au
They're really big.
Nobody uses solid rotors anymore. Alcon, Brembo or other top of the line brakes are needed.
I agree 100%.
I still think that Randy is a bit more than that. He was selling his used one after winning the race for 190.
Passing Tom while he's helping Erik was a dick move anyways.
In my mind, I'd see a potential market to someone selling a chassis that would fit all the drivetrain of a Pro R (for example), just with better weight distribution (component placement) and suspension geometry. Say 35 to 50k for a roller. Just buy a Pro R and the components needed and drop this in the chassis (fuel cell, rads, seats etc).
The drivetrains are stupid these days :
thats a bold statement. IMHO moving to sticky 37s at race pace will exploded drivetrain parts and be a learning experience for them in durability.
Isdtbower
In for Tech
I thought this was a good video of the SXS IRS not wanting to pitch the car sideways when one wheel got upset. This could be a poor link but don't know how to get it elsewhere for all.
It might be helpful to really look at Class 1 IRS. They have been built to take it. Now on series 30 CV's. Jimco has been killing it with 6 cars lately in CL 1, but also building their first TT's as they saw the writing on the wall.
Because I had a narrow diff and one of the first 17" deep offset wheels, my perfect inner pivots were right in the middle of the quickchange. The angled bottom bar (below) gave me the clue to still use that point. The pivot line goes from that virtual point to the front Heim. I just picked a point along that line that did not have any interference. Simple, once you get how they work. (Without knowing where that virtual point is, you have a very tough time determining the anti's, CG, roll ctr, etc.
Jimco Hammerhead Design Class 1. They make good use of virtual pivots and long trailing arms for toe and less front-to-back arc. These cars run 8-900HP Dugan mtrs with Fortin 6spd (?) sequential/no hesitation shifting transmissions. (Desert Race Cars)
Just emptying out some of the learnings along the way.
It might be helpful to really look at Class 1 IRS. They have been built to take it. Now on series 30 CV's. Jimco has been killing it with 6 cars lately in CL 1, but also building their first TT's as they saw the writing on the wall.
Because I had a narrow diff and one of the first 17" deep offset wheels, my perfect inner pivots were right in the middle of the quickchange. The angled bottom bar (below) gave me the clue to still use that point. The pivot line goes from that virtual point to the front Heim. I just picked a point along that line that did not have any interference. Simple, once you get how they work. (Without knowing where that virtual point is, you have a very tough time determining the anti's, CG, roll ctr, etc.
Jimco Hammerhead Design Class 1. They make good use of virtual pivots and long trailing arms for toe and less front-to-back arc. These cars run 8-900HP Dugan mtrs with Fortin 6spd (?) sequential/no hesitation shifting transmissions. (Desert Race Cars)
Just emptying out some of the learnings along the way.
OK. I'll go with that, but the early rigs didn't know what they "could do," and might have been more parallel instead of triangulated which started eliminating the rear steer and added knowledge on the anti's. I remember Shannon's car having a rear panhard rod that was about 12"+ above the axle. Don't know what that did but he was the first to comment about white knuckles between canyons. No stress. Good input.
Thanks for elaborating on that. The capability disparity between different drivers and teams is probably the biggest factor... At the end of the day, does that boil down to budget? If a team can afford to hire a skilled driver whose full-time job is to drive and nothing else, and hire the best builders and crew, and then train and test full-time. That's a huge benefit in and of itself.
I know this has been discussed before, and the classes aren't changing as Dave has shown. 4400 is the "Pro" class. But in 4400 there are the legitimate full-time Pro teams (10-15?), and then a bunch of privateer teams. Are any amateur/weekend warrior guys racing 4400 these days? Or are they mostly in 4500/4800?
I know that for most, finishing is the goal. And the full-time Pro teams will always have the best shot at the podium. But for the privateer teams who have sponsors and substantial personal investment, what's their motivation? The division between Trophy Truck and the other classes comes, and who is motivated to race in which class.
I guess that also brings up the question of where someone like Slawson would fall. He's a full-time business owner, and builder, and wheeler, and racer. But not necessarily a full-time race team. I also wonder if he has any wins left or if the IFS cars and Pro teams are pulling too far ahead to close the gap.
Complete spitball idea... Would a 4400 sub-class benefit the privateer/weekend warrior teams? Call it 4450, limit tires to 40" tall, and institute a race weight limit of say 4450lb with a full tank. Or something like that to force smaller/lighter/cheaper cars. Run them with 4400 but have a separate podium so guys are more encouraged to compete for a win, knowing they have a chance. Good idea? Shit idea?
arse_sidewards
Contrary to my ass
Wasn't there someone here making one like that? Wood mockup and took a beam saw to a huge aluminum billet?
Also, reminds me of an '00s Lesbaru but with longer everything