Double ended ram hydro assist

[JR4X]

I'm not married to that box at all, just curious if disabling the box and using the integrated servo would transfer to other boxes besides the big Saginaw.

It should but I can’t stake my name on it. Delphi boxes work. But minitruck stuff is just that. Heavy emphasis on mini. I like em for being outside of the frame rails. They look almost just like a Delphi box. I’m sure there’s a YouTube video for DIY ram assist

 

[YotaAtieToo]

It should but I can’t stake my name on it. Delphi boxes work. But minitruck stuff is just that. Heavy emphasis on mini. I like em for being outside of the frame rails. They look almost just like a Delphi box. I’m sure there’s a YouTube video for DIY ram assist

I've done a few ifs box drill and taps. But they are not tapped into the servo. The few JK box drill and taps I've seen were not either.

 

[JR4X]

I've done a few ifs box drill and taps. But they are not tapped into the servo. The few JK box drill and taps I've seen were not either.

So just the facts I deal with on this modified hydro assist. If you want to use the servo on the box but de-power the box piston like I want. You have to block the flow between the sides of the servo somehow. That’s it. As long as the fluid from L/R can’t bypass through a port. It shouldn’t matter where the ram take off ports are as long as there is one take off on each side of the divider.

People used to put one ram port on the removable cap on a Saginaw box and the other still on the servo end. The way I weld up the long port in the box. That would put both hoses for the ram on the same side of the servo. The way the YouTube vid I shared does it keeps one hose on each side of the servo stream. You’d have to know your toy boxes better than I do to make sure you have a port on each side of the servo as needed.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

So just the facts I deal with on this modified hydro assist. If you want to use the servo on the box but de-power the box piston like I want. You have to block the flow between the sides of the servo somehow. That’s it. As long as the fluid from L/R can’t bypass through a port. It shouldn’t matter where the ram take off ports are as long as there is one take off on each side of the divider.

People used to put one ram port on the removable cap on a Saginaw box and the other still on the servo end. The way I weld up the long port in the box. That would put both hoses for the ram on the same side of the servo. The way the YouTube vid I shared does it keeps one hose on each side of the servo stream. You’d have to know your toy boxes better than I do to make sure you have a port on each side of the servo as needed.

I gotcha, Thanks for answering these questions. I'll have to dive into whatever box I decide.

 

[06h3]

I saw some confusion on what options are available here. Hell, maybe I am just trying to clarify it for myself and will share. I went back and read the entire thread on pirate that JR4X created. I felt bad asking him to explain it for the 10000th time so I figured I better soak up all the info before asking him more crap. After reading that my brain hurts. First of all, thank you JR4X for being so transparent with everything. You and other 4500 cars kept having issues, you solved the issue and shared it with other teams. That is what sets U4 apart.

I did chuckle that Howe joined pirate to argue with you that your wrong when you literally are sending people with money in hand to buy their products and you proved the system worked. Anyways, I will stop there. It seems Fwjeep and gtxracer2 added some great tech into the old thread as well. (that is if your using the same name as you did on pirate)

So, you have 3 options. 2 options achieve the same thing but differently and 1 option is like hydro assist. this hydro assist option seems to be newer and hasn't been done much and is definitely not the race setup.

Option 1) You have ram assist with a 1.5in ram, for whatever reason, may it be breaking offset TRE's like mentioned earlier in this thread, or not wanting a bend in your tie rod or your starting out a new build and you just want equal steering force in both directions without all the extra work required of option 2 and 3, you would order a 2in 1.25 x8 double ended ram from surplus center. For almost the same volume as a 1.5in single ended ram you have a double ended ram. You tap your box like any other traditional RAM ASSIST single ended ram setup and you move on with your life.

If your breaking sector shafts and shit with a single ended ram, this WILL NOT solve your problem. If your hitting shit hard and the wheel gets ripped out of your hand and want that to stop, this WILL NOT solve that. This is ram assist with a double ended ram that doesn't require so much volume you end up with a slow moving system.

Option 2) This is the baller, race setup. If you are breaking steering components this is your answer. You order a howe modified sweet servo. You buy it from Howe...they do some magic to the sweet servo, do not ask what they do. No one knows....if you want to buy a stock sweet servo and then a howe modified sweet servo then open them up to help out the community save a couple hundred bucks then so be it but no one knows.... but there is a difference. You then depower your existing steering box. I will not go into how you do this. That is something you can look up on the old thread or ask someone smarter than myself. I think it is even discussed in this thread. You need to match your pump with your system.

This is not a setup for the bolt in guy. It takes money, time and work. I saw JR say countless times on the old pirate thread, buy the parts I tell you to buy and it will work. People cheap out, change things and then have issues. It may be expensive, but you have to remember, his dad had $15,000 worth of broken steering parts. That dollar amount would grow infinitely, so spending a few grand was worth it to them.

Things like a worn-out steering box could cause shakes, you may have to play with torsion bars in the remote servo, this requires tuning and work. While I have never driven this setup it seems its the bees knees. What sets this setup apart from option 1 is that you clip an immoveable object at 45 mph, the steering wheel wont rip out of your hands, break your wrists and snap the box in half. It will rip the damn knuckle off the car first

Through years of trial and error and helping others, JR found if you do want to save SOME money in a non race application you could use an off the shelf sweet servo. Again, if you venture too far off the path of being a cheap fuck then you may have issues.

Now Option 3) Option 3 is essentially option 2 but you ditch the remote sweet servo. You tear the box apart yourself, drill holes bigger, weld up holes and do some voodoo magic shit to essentially make the box do what the remote servo is doing. This is even more complex than option 2 but has benefits to saving room and ditching added parts. You are essentially making the manual side of the box and the servo side of the box but putting it into 1 package. There are nuances here because some boxes work better than others. It seems toyota boxes don't like this and you would have to go option 2 for desirable results with a toyota box.

A) I hope I explained everything correctly. JR correct me if I am wrong in any of this. I hope this helps clear things up. I know we have a lot of different discussions.

B) I know it was said option 1 is stupid and not worth it. It may not be for your use case, but it is dumb if you're trying to solve bigger issues in racing type situations. It won't solve them, but in the case of a regular trail wheeler, who just wants a slightly different ram assist it should work.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Where did someone try option 3 with a Toyota box?

I read as someone tried option 2 with a Toyota box and it didn't work well.

 

[06h3]

Where did someone try option 3 with a Toyota box?

I read as someone tried option 2 with a Toyota box and it didn't work well.

Did you read that on the old thread? I may have been mistaken but I thought option 3 was tired on the old thread.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Did you read that on the old thread? I may have been mistaken but I thought option 3 was tired on the old thread.

No, need to get back over and re read it.

Just read it here on post #119

 

[JR4X]

I saw some confusion on what options are available here. Hell, maybe I am just trying to clarify it for myself and will share. I went back and read the entire thread on pirate that JR4X created. I felt bad asking him to explain it for the 10000th time so I figured I better soak up all the info before asking him more crap. After reading that my brain hurts. First of all, thank you JR4X for being so transparent with everything. You and other 4500 cars kept having issues, you solved the issue and shared it with other teams. That is what sets U4 apart.

I did chuckle that Howe joined pirate to argue with you that your wrong when you literally are sending people with money in hand to buy their products and you proved the system worked. Anyways, I will stop there. It seems Fwjeep and gtxracer2 added some great tech into the old thread as well. (that is if your using the same name as you did on pirate)

The conclusion I eventually came to after wasting a lot of time dealing with steering “experts” is that none of those major players are actually steering experts. What they are is sales experts. They aren’t in the biz to sell you the most optimized system ever made. They are in the biz to sell mass produced parts for a profit. Me kicking the door down and telling everyone that the stuff we all thought was awesome is actually not great or well thought out messed with their business model. Naturally they fought back, futilely.

So, you have 3 options. 2 options achieve the same thing but differently and 1 option is like hydro assist. this hydro assist option seems to be newer and hasn't been done much and is definitely not the race setup.

Option 1) You have ram assist with a 1.5in ram, for whatever reason, may it be breaking offset TRE's like mentioned earlier in this thread, or not wanting a bend in your tie rod or your starting out a new build and you just want equal steering force in both directions without all the extra work required of option 2 and 3, you would order a 2in 1.25 x8 double ended ram from surplus center. For almost the same volume as a 1.5in single ended ram you have a double ended ram. You tap your box like any other traditional RAM ASSIST single ended ram setup and you move on with your life.

Howe does sell a version of this with a 2 1/4 ram. Last I looked it cost more than the full blown big stuff like I spec out.

Option 2) This is the baller, race setup. If you are breaking steering components this is your answer. You order a howe modified sweet servo. You buy it from Howe...they do some magic to the sweet servo, do not ask what they do. No one knows....if you want to buy a stock sweet servo and then a howe modified sweet servo then open them up to help out the community save a couple hundred bucks then so be it but no one knows....

I can’t divulge someone else’s information but I have good news. Someone finally did exactly that. Put their money where their mouth is, bought a bunch of servos, took them all apart and recorded the differences. I won’t give away his results because he will in his own time. But he verified that the Howe//Sweet servo I have been insisting is the BEST one for the application is indeed the higher flowing much better option of the lot. That is now a verified fact.

Things like a worn-out steering box could cause shakes, you may have to play with torsion bars in the remote servo, this requires tuning and work. While I have never driven this setup it seems it’s the bees knees. What sets this setup apart from option 1 is that you clip an immoveable object at 45 mph, the steering wheel wont rip out of your hands, break your wrists and snap the box in half. It will rip the damn knuckle off the car first

Through years of trial and error and helping others, JR found if you do want to save SOME money in a non race application you could use an off the shelf sweet servo. Again, if you venture too far off the path of being a cheap fuck then you may have issues.

Now Option 3) Option 3 is essentially option 2 but you ditch the remote sweet servo. You tear the box apart yourself, drill holes bigger, weld up holes and do some voodoo magic shit to essentially make the box do what the remote servo is doing. This is even more complex than option 2 but has benefits to saving room and ditching added parts. You are essentially making the manual side of the box and the servo side of the box but putting it into 1 package. There are nuances here because some boxes work better than others. It seems toyota boxes don't like this and you would have to go option 2 for desirable results with a toyota box.

A) I hope I explained everything correctly. JR correct me if I am wrong in any of this. I hope this helps clear things up. I know we have a lot of different discussions.

B) I know it was said option 1 is stupid and not worth it. It may not be for your use case, but it is dumb if you're trying to solve bigger issues in racing type situations. It won't solve them, but in the case of a regular trail wheeler, who just wants a slightly different ram assist it should work.

Thank you for the excellent synopsis! I am glad to still be doing this 10 years after the company that first told me that my system cannot work, tried to copy it and market it. Then failed themselves to actually make it work. At the finals race last weekend all but one 4500 car that raced has our steering system, 1st and 2nd place cars my brother and I built the boxes ourselves.

 

[Fwjeep]

Very well worded and laid out 06h3!

Option 3 has been done with a Toyota fj60 power box, by me. It does work. But way more time and effort involved than a Saginaw servo. They are completely different style is servo, and fully hardened internals. Wasted more than a few carbide drills porting. Using a wj-jk-or scout box would be a better use of your time.

As for welding closed the lower port the goes to the back of the piston on Saginaw boxes, I tap the port from the cap end 1/4 20tpi or 5/16(been a year or two) and lock tight a setscrew in. Take the large nut off the back of the piston. Then you can try out a depowered box without permanent modifications. If it works for you, then you can cut slots in the piston jr4x style to make sure it’s not a restriction.

https://www.midweststeering.com/wp-content/uploads/Saginaw-800-PS-Comp.pdf

If this link works, it’s worth your time to read, on the way to re-build Saginaw boxes and pumps, and get the preload on servo correctly.

 

[DocRamsay]

Can we all just have a round of applause for JR4X and his special brand of steering related autism? This is the most I've learned all year.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Can we all just have a round of applause for JR4X and his special brand of steering related autism? This is the most I've learned all year.

Not just that, but actually taking the time to answer all our retarded questions

JR4X do you think there is a market for these setups out side racing? I'm floored at the prices I see when googling "jk hydro assist"

Is there any reason your setups couldn't be adapted to a street driven JK/JL type rig?

 

[RustyC]

I am one of many absorbing this information and applying to to my own vehicles. Thanks again for JR4X and others for pushing the envelope outside the box and off the table.

As 06h3 pointed out with the 3 options it would be good to establish terminology to use when talking about each system such as.

Traditional assist = oem box servo and single ended cylinder.

Hybrid assist = oem box active servo / blocked bypassing piston with cylinder.

JR4X / Mudnutt /4500 = manual box , external (Howe / Sweet) servo , DE cylinder.

Full hydro = Orbital / Metering Unit , SE/DE cylinder

 

[DocRamsay]

Not just that, but actually taking the time to answer all our retarded questions

JR4X do you think there is a market for these setups out side racing? I'm floored at the prices I see when googling "jk hydro assist"

Is there any reason your setups couldn't be adapted to a street driven JK/JL type rig?

Retarded is certainly generous for some of my questions

 

[SMI17]

I'm glad I'm broke or I'd be spending a Lot of money to get one of his systems for the new buggy, mix of street and trail on 47s and bbc

 

[JR4X]

Not just that, but actually taking the time to answer all our retarded questions

JR4X do you think there is a market for these setups out side racing? I'm floored at the prices I see when googling "jk hydro assist"

Is there any reason your setups couldn't be adapted to a street driven JK/JL type rig?

I could do it, and I’d kinda like to. But right now I’m basically working two full time jobs. Have my oilfield job to make the money and the racing gig. I don’t have time to get something off the ground. I have plans for some stuff but time currently dictates it’s not possible.

We have built a successful functional JK setup with a de-powered JK box and remote mount servo with DE ram. So it’s definitely doable. The JK boxes are totally different than a Saginaw. I haven’t investigated to see if it’s got enough servo to see if it can do the big ram without the remote servo.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I could do it, and I’d kinda like to. But right now I’m basically working two full time jobs. Have my oilfield job to make the money and the racing gig. I don’t have time to get something off the ground. I have plans for some stuff but time currently dictates it’s not possible.

We have built a successful functional JK setup with a de-powered JK box and remote mount servo with DE ram. So it’s definitely doable. The JK boxes are totally different than a Saginaw. I haven’t investigated to see if it’s got enough servo to see if it can do the big ram without the remote servo.

Well I'd like to do this with a jk box, so if there's anything I can do to help, I will. I'd be willing to send one to you, or pull it apart and give you specs.

I also know someone looking to add assist to thier jk who might be interested as a test mule.

 

[Big4x4ride]

Well I'd like to do this with a jk box, so if there's anything I can do to help, I will. I'd be willing to send one to you, or pull it apart and give you specs.

I also know someone looking to add assist to thier jk who might be interested as a test mule.

I have my spare JK box that id be willing to tear into as well. There are 2 different boxes for them, ones a China box, one isnt, I believe they both offer 2 different ratios as well based on 2dr/4dr models. I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to the inside of a box though, so it would be a learning experience for sure.

 

[ParadisePWoffrd]

I could do it, and I’d kinda like to. But right now I’m basically working two full time jobs. Have my oilfield job to make the money and the racing gig. I don’t have time to get something off the ground. I have plans for some stuff but time currently dictates it’s not possible.

We have built a successful functional JK setup with a de-powered JK box and remote mount servo with DE ram. So it’s definitely doable. The JK boxes are totally different than a Saginaw. I haven’t investigated to see if it’s got enough servo to see if it can do the big ram without the remote servo.

I assume that means that the JK box was quick enough to not get shakes with the remote servo? Was it a factory box, aftermarket, big bore, etc?

 

[JR4X]

I assume that means that the JK box was quick enough to not get shakes with the remote servo? Was it a factory box, aftermarket, big bore, etc?

It was the faster of the two stock boxes and no shakes. That was for Justin Halls 4500 single seat car. He might even still have it for sale (the box alone) if someone is interested.

 

[fl0w3n]

It was the faster of the two stock boxes and no shakes. That was for Justin Halls 4500 single seat car. He might even still have it for sale (the box alone) if someone is interested.

I posted his 2 boxes for sale in the other thread I think, afaik he still has both rebuilt JK 4door PSC boxes if that’s what you’re talking about.

Fast forward to 13 min 22 seconds to skip the bs.

I was like oh cool thanks… wait a minute

 

[JR4X]

I posted his 2 boxes for sale in the other thread I think, afaik he still has both rebuilt JK 4door PSC boxes if that’s what you’re talking about.

The one you posted today is not the de-powered one Kevin built for him. That’s a high end box PSC was selling and I don’t think they sell anymore.

Edit, went back to double check the video to see what you’re laughing about. Not sure how I screwed that up but yeah, take out the 3. Skip to 1:22.

Vid actual length is 13:27 just skip this whole idea

 

[fl0w3n]

The one you posted today is not the de-powered one Kevin built for him. That’s a high end box PSC was selling and I don’t think they sell anymore.

Oh got it.

Edit, went back to double check the video to see what you’re laughing about. Not sure how I screwed that up but yeah, take out the 3. Skip to 1:22.

Vid actual length is 13:27 just skip this whole idea

Ha I was definitely confused on what you were saying was BS

 

[Oddball]

This thread couldnt have came up at a better time. I've been schooling myself and getting ready for my first hydro-assist. I like the sweet servo idea, but its pricey. I think i could make it work on a toyota box, if I welded the stock servo solid. I wish the cervos came with female 3/4 double D shafts in and out, would make life easier. Anyways, plan is to open up the box as much as possible, and port it as close to the servo as possible. I think freeing up the flow on the return side is just as important as the pressure side. I have a few ifs boxes so ill try and mess with the servo to get it to flow better. A DE ram will be ideal as well. If i make any profound discoveries, ill post back.

 

[fl0w3n]

Thanks to 06h3 and everyone else for the synopsis. I read the original p4x4 thread years ago but didn't 100% grasp it and I don't recall in that thread seeing that there was an even more budget friendly trail version so I kinda wrote it off as baller tech.

JR4X you say component selection is critical- does an XJ box, RD trail pump, RD res, and 2.5x8 DE PSC box pair together?

Also, isn’t there still some force back on the box from the tie rod even if it’s small? With the idle fluid left in the box, isolated from the servo, if the tie rod drags the pitman arm one way isn’t what’s left of the sector shaft moving some stale fluid around and pressurizing it against the box itself? I guess there’s nothing to compress it, so maybe it just acts as a dampener if anything… or I’m just misunderstanding.

 

[06h3]

Thanks to 06h3 and everyone else for the synopsis. I read the original p4x4 thread years ago but didn't 100% grasp it and I don't recall in that thread seeing that there was an even more budget friendly trail version so I kinda wrote it off as baller tech.

JR4X you say component selection is critical- does an XJ box, RD trail pump, RD res, and 2.5x8 DE PSC box pair together?

Also, isn’t there still some force back on the box from the tie rod even if it’s small? With the idle fluid left in the box, isolated from the servo, if the tie rod drags the pitman arm one way isn’t what’s left of the sector shaft moving some stale fluid around and pressurizing it against the box itself? I guess there’s nothing to compress it, so maybe it just acts as a dampener if anything… or I’m just misunderstanding.

What are you doing to the XJ box? standard tap for ram assist? or tearing it apart for servo changes?

 

[JR4X]

or I’m just misunderstanding.

Yes you are, misunderstanding entirely

That’s the whole point of the disabling of the piston in the box. The box needs lubricated with something to have a long life. So what I do to the piston is make it move back and forth through the fluid. The fluid can bypass the piston and through the ports so that it’s not possible for the piston to run into resistance.

I could certainly illustrate that better but being honest, when I’m working on a steering box the last thing I’m thinking about is taking pictures for the forum. So I haven’t adequately shown a fully disabled piston

 

[fl0w3n]

What are you doing to the XJ box? standard tap for ram assist? or tearing it apart for servo changes?

Option 3 - tear apart to only use servo, and I think the XJ box was already the preferred one for this method.

Yes you are, misunderstanding entirely

That’s the whole point of the disabling of the piston in the box. The box needs lubricated with something to have a long life. So what I do to the piston is make it move back and forth through the fluid. The fluid can bypass the piston and through the ports so that it’s not possible for the piston to run into resistance.

I could certainly illustrate that better but being honest, when I’m working on a steering box the last thing I’m thinking about is taking pictures for the forum. So I haven’t adequately shown a fully disabled piston

I’ll stare at some pictures and diagrams again, might be able to understand it.
It’s the pitman arm still on the shaft that’s tripping me up, but I guess with the piston disabled through selective modification essentially it’s just acting as an idler arm now right?

once the box is modified, if you had it on the bench and grabbed the sector shaft, could you spin the sector shaft infinitely by hand?

 

[JR4X]

Option 3 - tear apart to only use servo, and I think the XJ box was already the preferred one for this method.

I’ll stare at some pictures and diagrams again, might be able to understand it.
It’s the pitman arm still on the shaft that’s tripping me up, but I guess with the piston disabled through selective modification essentially it’s just acting as an idler arm now right?

once the box is modified, if you had it on the bench and grabbed the sector shaft, could you spin the sector shaft infinitely by hand?

Yes, you completely misunderstand every piece of this system. In a few quick words. A servo is not an orbit valve. If you remove the steering box connection from the system, you can spin the steering wheel for forever and it will never send one molecule of oil to the ram. The steering box is the timing mechanism. It still sets the speed of the system. This is not like full hydro even though it shares two common components, the pump and the ram.

I’m making manual boxes out of powered boxes because manual boxes don’t come in usable acceptable gear ratios.

 

[fl0w3n]

Yes, you completely misunderstand every piece of this system. In a few quick words. A servo is not an orbit valve. If you remove the steering box connection from the system, you can spin the steering wheel for forever and it will never send one molecule of oil to the ram. The steering box is the timing mechanism. It still sets the speed of the system. This is not like full hydro even though it shares two common components, the pump and the ram.

I’m making manual boxes out of powered boxes because manual boxes don’t come in usable acceptable gear ratios.

Haha it’s possible I am completely missing it, if u ignore the box part here’s my understanding

Steering wheel is turned L
Steering shaft twists torsion bar L
Torsion bar rotates servo valve L
Servo valve reveals passage for fluid L
Pressurized fluid directly from pump routes through now open L port in servo
Next is the critical difference- instead of flowing to the piston in the box and putting force on the pitman arm, it’s completely blocked and routed directly to the ram
Ram receives pressure to go L
Overflow / return goes back to res

An impact / hard stop / outside force on the wheel just pushes ram fluid back to the res and doesn’t push on the torsion bar at all therefore no steering wheel feel.

The torsion bar is what gives the feeling of solid connection to the sneering still, compared to an orbital DE setup.

Do I have that part understood?