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Double ended ram hydro assist

Slander

Slander

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May 28, 2020
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Hickory, NC
I searched here and at the old place and only found a few threads, one being JR4X KOH steering here, and one from Willyswanter back in 2003 on p4x4. I think this would be a good potential option for my low slung Toyota on leafs as I have zero room for a ram pretty much anywhere. I don't have the balls to try the 4500 steering so this may be the next best option as I street drive this truck. So what calculations do I need to be making to make sure I get the correct size ram? My current steering is no hydro assist with one of those big ass late 70s ford forward swing box, and an fj60 axle with hi steer, the box does ok but heats up fast in the rocks.

Old pic, but nothing has changed front axle wise
IMG_20170508_205146554.jpg
 
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I got one of the Surplus Center 2" rams with a 1.25" shaft to use as an assist like you describe. It uses a little less fluid than the big end of a 1.75" single end ram, but more than a 1.5" single ended ram.

Simplified packaging and equal force and speed in both directions was the reason I went with the double ended ram assist rather than the typical single ended ram. I think if someone made a 2" with a 1.5" shaft it would be perfect for a double end ram assist setup.

JR4X's 4500 steering setup with a larger ram is a better way to go, but more expensive. It also seemed like a lot of people were having trouble with steering shake trying to implement it on their own rigs since it seems to be really sensitive to any slop in the system.
 
'84 Bronco II said:
I got one of the Surplus Center 2" rams with a 1.25" shaft to use as an assist like you describe. It uses a little less fluid than the big end of a 1.75" single end ram, but more than a 1.5" single ended ram.

Simplified packaging and equal force and speed in both directions was the reason I went with the double ended ram assist rather than the typical single ended ram. I think if someone made a 2" with a 1.5" shaft it would be perfect for a double end ram assist setup.

JR4X's 4500 steering setup with a larger ram is a better way to go, but more expensive. It also seemed like a lot of people were having trouble with steering shake trying to implement it on their own rigs since it seems to be really sensitive to any slop in the system.
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Yea the steering shake part is what's making me puss out on that. This truck won't see larger than 37s for the foreseeable future as well. What kind of box are you running? I'm thinking of ditching this Ford box and running a smaller more commonly available box that goes in the outside of the frame rail, maybe a RHD JK box?
 
I’ve got a 2.5”x8” on my WJ with the box still powered. I’m pretty happy with it overall, but it is a little slow at idle, like 2.5 or 3 seconds lock to lock iirc even though I have an undersized pulley. Anywhere above idle the speed is excellent. Because it’s north of 5k lbs and on 42”s i’d do it again the same exact way, but on a lighter rig or smaller tires I would def look at the 2” with 1.25” shaft that Bronco mentioned so it doesn’t need as much volume (but sacrifice a little power). The steering is confident at speed too, no twitching or discomfort

IMG_6713.jpeg
 
AgitatedPancake said:
I’ve got a 2.5”x8” on my WJ with the box still powered. I’m pretty happy with it overall, but it is a little slow at idle, like 2.5 or 3 seconds lock to lock iirc even though I have an undersized pulley. Anywhere above idle the speed is excellent. Because it’s north of 5k lbs and on 42”s i’d do it again the same exact way, but on a lighter rig or smaller tires I would def look at the 2” with 1.25” shaft that Bronco mentioned so it doesn’t need as much volume (but sacrifice a little power). The steering is confident at speed too, no twitching or discomfort

IMG_6713.jpeg
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Surplus Center ram ?
 
'84 Bronco II said:
I got one of the Surplus Center 2" rams with a 1.25" shaft to use as an assist like you describe. It uses a little less fluid than the big end of a 1.75" single end ram, but more than a 1.5" single ended ram.

Simplified packaging and equal force and speed in both directions was the reason I went with the double ended ram assist rather than the typical single ended ram. I think if someone made a 2" with a 1.5" shaft it would be perfect for a double end ram assist setup.

JR4X's 4500 steering setup with a larger ram is a better way to go, but more expensive. It also seemed like a lot of people were having trouble with steering shake trying to implement it on their own rigs since it seems to be really sensitive to any slop in the system.
Click to expand...
And gear ratio. I think I’ve unlocked the problem that plagues other home builders the most and that’s standard ratio boxes. I’ve bragged that my brother and I have built many systems for other people that didn’t shake and on the first try without having to retune stuff to dial it out. Then we took on a job where the owner insisted on staying with a 16:1 box and no matter what we could not make it work. The owner would not budge on changing to a faster mechanical ratio so that the hydro wasn’t so easily able to outrun it. 12:1 is the slow end of being able to make it work but 8:1 or 6:1 are better.
 
I did this back in 2010 on my LJ. I used a PSC ported box, their TC pump and the standard 2.5"x8" ram as my tie rod set up. Like others, my steering was slow at idle but good everywhere else. Now days, with a higher volume pump, I think this a very doable set up.
 
JR4X said:
And gear ratio. I think I’ve unlocked the problem that plagues other home builders the most and that’s standard ratio boxes. I’ve bragged that my brother and I have built many systems for other people that didn’t shake and on the first try without having to retune stuff to dial it out. Then we took on a job where the owner insisted on staying with a 16:1 box and no matter what we could not make it work. The owner would not budge on changing to a faster mechanical ratio so that the hydro wasn’t so easily able to outrun it. 12:1 is the slow end of being able to make it work but 8:1 or 6:1 are better.
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What boxes came with 8 or 6:1 ratios?
 
Mattygwheeler said:
What boxes came with 8 or 6:1 ratios?
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I think Camaros and Corvettes had 8:1 Saginaw boxes. They are 3 bolt instead of 4 bolt which hangs everybody up.

Or. We’re using these now which are the best steering boxes I’ve laid hands on.

www.speedwaymotors.com

Sweet Mfg. 208-08210 1964-88 GM Power Steering Box, 8:1, .210 Valve

These Sweet 700 Series Sportsman power steering boxes have new quick ratio gear sets in them which significantly speeds up the steering. This steering box features new inner working components with a re-manufactured housing. Fits most 1964-1988 GM passenger cars. -6 AN hose fittings. 13/16"...
www.speedwaymotors.com www.speedwaymotors.com
 
Would it be easier/cheaper to go to flat steering arms, ditch high steer and run steering under the arms and leaves with normal assist instead of upgrading the pump, box and still having to redo the steering arm setup anyway for a double ended ram?

I’d think to either do that or go full on on JR4X ’s setup since you’re going to be most of the way there anyway cost wise and don’t have to deal with slow idle steering
 
Snowy said:
Would it be easier/cheaper to go to flat steering arms, ditch high steer and run steering under the arms and leaves with normal assist instead of upgrading the pump, box and still having to redo the steering arm setup anyway for a double ended ram?

I’d think to either do that or go full on on JR4X ’s setup since you’re going to be most of the way there anyway cost wise and don’t have to deal with slow idle steering
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Leafs are in the way of the flat arms, and I would need a zlink drag link to run that Y steering you do on your links.
 
Slander said:
Currently running a stock Taco pump but upgrading it would all be part of this.
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My suggestion would be. Buy Trailgears bracket to put a TC pump on your engine and buy RadialDynamics TC pump. A good pump alone might make your steering be adequate with what you’ve got. The pump IMO is the most overlooked part of the equation. The difference between a stock pump and a good pump is hundreds of psi and gallons per minute of flow.
 
JR4X said:
My suggestion would be. Buy Trailgears bracket to put a TC pump on your engine and buy RadialDynamics TC pump. A good pump alone might make your steering be adequate with what you’ve got. The pump IMO is the most overlooked part of the equation. The difference between a stock pump and a good pump is hundreds of psi and gallons per minute of flow.
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This is awesome discussion everyone!

I have considered that, but if my steering is currently over heating wouldn't tossing a higher rated pump at it exacerbate the issue? You can see the big ass cooler I'm running and it still gets hot as hell on the trail.

Now part of that issue is I need to build an inner fender as the box is getting heat soaked by the exhaust, I'm working on fixing that.

Got to love fixing issues 4yrs after slapping everything together at the end of an SAS to get to a trail ride LOL!!!
 
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Slander said:
This is awesome discussion everyone!

I have considered that, but if my steering is currently over heating wouldn't tossing a higher rated pump at it exacerbate the issue? You can see the big ass cooler I'm running and it still gets hot as hell on the trail.

Now part of that issue is I need to build an inner fender as the box is getting heat soaked by the exhaust, I'm working on fixing that.

Got to live fixing issues 4yrs after slapping everything together at the end of an SAS to get to a trail ride LOL!!!
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Excellent question and depending on a few other factors, no. I see your cooler and that’s another topic. Sorry to anyone I’m about to offend, but an in-line log cooler is not the best or most efficient for the job. Not even mounted right there.

Almost all pumps have an internal relief to save the pump from pressure spikes. A stock pump trying to steer big tires ends up relieving often. This is where most of the heat soak in your system comes from. If the pump relieves internally ( like it’s supposed to do) it’s putting hot fluid right back into the inlet (that’s how it’s ducted). This does two things that just continue to compound heat. The hot fluid soaking the bypass spring makes it lose spring rate so it starts bypassing sooner. Which means more heat and more heat soak and everything just quits working. Let it cool completely off and it works just fine again.

The Radial dynamics pump is going to have 400 psi more pressure and double the gpm to start with so it will bypass less and if it’s not bypassing it’s not getting hot.
 
JR4X said:
12:1 is the slow end of being able to make it work but 8:1 or 6:1 are better.
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Is it the actual box ratio that matters here or the ratio of pitman arm travel per rev of the bot input that matters?

Because the latter is easily adjustable with a quickener and/or longer pitman arm.
 
arse_sidewards said:
Is it the actual box ratio that matters here or the ratio of pitman arm travel per rev of the bot input that matters?

Because the latter is easily adjustable with a quickener and/or longer pitman arm.
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It should just be the ratio of pitman travel. With my sweet valve setup a quickener doesn’t work. We’ve tried it and the result isn’t the same as with a fast ratio rack or gear box. Does the wheel chatter thing.
 
At what point does one need to add the Sweet valve? New build will have a gear box with a DE ram as the TRE. It is a rock buggy on 43s but needs to be street legal.
 
SMI17 said:
At what point does one need to add the Sweet valve? New build will have a gear box with a DE ram as the TRE. It is a rock buggy on 43s but needs to be street legal.
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If you’re racing, wanna look cool, like to spend money.

The sweet valve is $700 now. Unless you’re trying to go fast I wouldn’t recommend it
 
JR4X said:
Excellent question and depending on a few other factors, no. I see your cooler and that’s another topic. Sorry to anyone I’m about to offend, but an in-line log cooler is not the best or most efficient for the job. Not even mounted right there.

Almost all pumps have an internal relief to save the pump from pressure spikes. A stock pump trying to steer big tires ends up relieving often. This is where most of the heat soak in your system comes from. If the pump relieves internally ( like it’s supposed to do) it’s putting hot fluid right back into the inlet (that’s how it’s ducted). This does two things that just continue to compound heat. The hot fluid soaking the bypass spring makes it lose spring rate so it starts bypassing sooner. Which means more heat and more heat soak and everything just quits working. Let it cool completely off and it works just fine again.

The Radial dynamics pump is going to have 400 psi more pressure and double the gpm to start with so it will bypass less and if it’s not bypassing it’s not getting hot.
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Good info, it sent down the power steering pump tech rabbit hole yesterday as well reading that CBR thread.:smokin: I'll probably start with a new pump and resi as I'm going to need that anyway while I figure out exactly what I want to do with that tie rod, it needs to be moved lower so i can get some uptravel and that's what got me thinking DE ram hydro assist in the first place.

Let's pop this debate off for the millionth time, I'm assuming cooler wise the mini radiator kind are superior to the log and fin one I have?
 
Slander said:
Let's pop this debate off for the millionth time, I'm assuming cooler wise the mini radiator kind are superior to the log and fin one I have?
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I recommend tube/fin. I just use “universal fit” aka generic transmission coolers in front of the radiator. Something like this will drop the temperature of the fluid a lot more at the outlet than a log.

www.speedwaymotors.com

Heavy Duty Aluminum Transmission Cooler, Powder Coated Black

Use this 6-pass automatic transmssion cooler in place of radiator lower tank cooler, or as a supplement to it. Prevents heat related transmission issues to extend the life of the transmission. Improves transmission performance under high loads. Copper tubing expanded into aluminum cooling fins...
www.speedwaymotors.com www.speedwaymotors.com

www.summitracing.com

TCI Auto 820500 TCI Universal Transmission Coolers | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - TCI Universal Transmission Coolers with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Fluid Coolers at Summit Racing.
www.summitracing.com www.summitracing.com

 
Interesting on log vs tube and fin coolers.

white-rhino and I were talking about this on the last road trip. I went log because that's what PSC recommended, he has tube and fin from what I recall. With a trail buggy I haven't had any issues, but good to keep in the back of my mind.
 
You can also use a stacked plate cooler or an actual oil cooler of decent construction just fine.
The bigger the better when it comes to steering.
 
I've never tried a log cooler, it just made more sense to me to go with tube and fin with good air flow through it. Knock on wood, I've never had a heating issue with my hydro.

At the risk of showing off how dumb I am, why go to the trouble to set up a new double ended ram, pump and cooler and still stick with it being assist? Why not just go full hydro? Does the mechanical over hydraulic give you better road manners?

Note, not totally dumb here. I started out with hydro assist on my D60 swap but moved to full hydro. I never felt it was a backwards move.
 
white-rhino said:
I've never tried a log cooler, it just made more sense to me to go with tube and fin with good air flow through it. Knock on wood, I've never had a heating issue with my hydro.

At the risk of showing off how dumb I am, why go to the trouble to set up a new double ended ram, pump and cooler and still stick with it being assist? Why not just go full hydro? Does the mechanical over hydraulic give you better road manners?

Note, not totally dumb here. I started out with hydro assist on my D60 swap but moved to full hydro. I never felt it was a backwards move.
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I drive it to and from the trail, if it was a full blown trail rig it would be on full hydro and stickys already:laughing:
 
I've actually had good luck with the log coolers, I like that they add a decent amount of volume to the system. I know they aren't cool race guy approved, but for trail rigs they've worked well.

Has anyone here actually had heat issues on a trail rig with a log and solved it with a tube and fin or plate style?

As cool as the DE ram is, are you positive you can't fit a se ram? I just put one on my pos and was able to put it at an angle down and behind the tie rod.

Toyota knuckles only need 5.25" of throw, so it's not hard to fit :laughing:
 
Slander said:
I drive it to and from the trail, if it was a full blown trail rig it would be on full hydro and stickys already:laughing:
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Understood. But why is that an issue? I've driven my full hydro rig 30 miles to a trailhead before.

Now, if you are heading out for 150 miles of highway driving each way, I'm on board with you.
 
in the early days the conclusion was the taco pump is not adequate for a steering gear setup since it was meant for rack and pinion from the factory.

swap the factory pump out, get a different cooler and get some temp strips to see if you are actually overheating the system.

as for the log cooler

RD_Fun_Tube_CFD_720x.png
 
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