Double ended ram hydro assist

[AgitatedPancake]

Badass. Just a stock WJ box? or a different box? My buddy is looking into this for his tj

It’s a stock WJ box. They’re different than the saginaw boxes of years past (more closely related to JK boxes), but the concept is still the same and should be no prob on the TJ. If your buddies rig is lighter or smaller tire, I’d recommend the smaller ram to keep lock to lock times down

 

[DocRamsay]

It’s a stock WJ box. They’re different than the saginaw boxes of years past (more closely related to JK boxes), but the concept is still the same and should be no prob on the TJ. If your buddies rig is lighter or smaller tire, I’d recommend the smaller ram to keep lock to lock times down

And gear ratio. I think I’ve unlocked the problem that plagues other home builders the most and that’s standard ratio boxes. I’ve bragged that my brother and I have built many systems for other people that didn’t shake and on the first try without having to retune stuff to dial it out. Then we took on a job where the owner insisted on staying with a 16:1 box and no matter what we could not make it work. The owner would not budge on changing to a faster mechanical ratio so that the hydro wasn’t so easily able to outrun it. 12:1 is the slow end of being able to make it work but 8:1 or 6:1 are better.

As I'm figuring out suspension/steering design I figured I'd dig up an old thread and ask. With the current bracketry I have (TMR panhard bracket on an 05+ SD), mounting a DE would not play well with the panhard. Seems like I could bump the axle forward and do a 4 link instead. Is that going to fuck with the steering box/ram and see who wins in a bump steer match? I could also just relocate the panhard bracket, just afraid of fucking with uptravel/being lazy.

 

[JR4X]

As I'm figuring out suspension/steering design I figured I'd dig up an old thread and ask. With the current bracketry I have (TMR panhard bracket on an 05+ SD), mounting a DE would not play well with the panhard. Seems like I could bump the axle forward and do a 4 link instead. Is that going to fuck with the steering box/ram and see who wins in a bump steer match? I could also just relocate the panhard bracket, just afraid of fucking with uptravel/being lazy.

Gonna need more info before answering. Are you talking about a triangulated 4 link up front with a steering box? Because I would recommend against that.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Agreed, triangulated 4 links and mechanical steering don’t play nice due to bump steer.

If lazy is a factor as you noted, I’d just go single ended wherever it fits. The old tried and true method still works just fine and is definitely easier from a packaging perspective. It takes a good bit of effort to package a double ended hydro ram, panhard, and drag link without sacrificing uptravel. But the outcome is slick if you can.

 

[Slander]

Fwiw, I am currently installing a traditional single ended ram hydro assist. I cut the front suspension off and moved it forward to solve my uptravel issue, just to close out my original question!

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Nice man!

I found this video I took a few years ago in my garage. It's nothing crazy and not necessarily "tech", but figured it might be worth sharing anyways. Some lock to lock action (with one hand only, so not super fast) and quicker shimmys. I don't recall if this was with the stock pulley on the stock TC (WJ) pump, or the smaller pulley I put on later but gives some frame of reference. 5k lb WJ on 42"s, but aired up on concrete so it doesn't mean anything really

Edited to add more info to compare with JR's post below -
2 1/2" x 8" DE ram
Stock WJ steering box, tapped for hydro assist and no other modifications
3.25 turns lock to lock IIRC
Stock TC pump from a 01-04 WJ with larger ports for the hydraulic cooling fan (but displacement is still the same as most others AFAIK)
Either stock ~5.5" pulley or 4.5" PSC pulley, can't recall if this video was before or after the swap

 

[JR4X]

I took this to compare with Agitated. 2 1/2 x 6” DE ram. Big TC pump. 10:1 Saginaw box from Sweet MFG and a sweet TT servo. Steering arms on the portals are 5 1/2” from the center of the pivots. I left the noise on so you can see I didn’t speed up the video. 1.75 turns lock to lock I put a piece of green tape on the steering wheel so you can see how many times it comes by in a L2L situation. Belt only squeals at full lock when it’s cold. The PRV relieves it and doesn’t stall the pump at full temp. First time this things been started in a while.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

That's an awesome comparison, and your idle steering speed makes me jealous! I added more details to my video post as well just to make a more direct comparison to your setup

I have a CB pump that should have around ~25% more displacement per rev that's sitting on the shelf as a long term round tuit project, but it hasn't been pressing enough to handle soon

 

[JR4X]

That's an awesome comparison, and your idle steering speed makes me jealous! I added more details to my video post as well just to make a more direct comparison to your setup

I have a CB pump that should have around ~25% more displacement per rev that's sitting on the shelf as a long term round tuit project, but it hasn't been pressing enough to handle soon

the only benefit the CB is going to gain you alone is more steering pounds of force while on the trail. It won’t speed up your idle steering much. I’m not limited in strength or speed by the TC pump I have but I have my stuff optimized. The pump is spun fast enough at idle to do what I want it to do while NOT being over spun at the top of the RPM range and hurting it. The only pump change I’m considering is going to RadialDynamics TC pump.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

the only benefit the CB is going to gain you alone is more steering pounds of force while on the trail. It won’t speed up your idle steering much. I’m not limited in strength or speed by the TC pump I have but I have my stuff optimized. The pump is spun fast enough at idle to do what I want it to do while NOT being over spun at the top of the RPM range and hurting it. The only pump change I’m considering is going to RadialDynamics TC pump.

Hmm. The CB's displace more volume per revolution, so if I gave it the same diameter pulley as the TC I'm running, I should have more volume at idle by whatever the percentage difference is. I don't want to drill out the orofice of the flow control from where it is as my flow beyond that point already feels great, just want to get more volume moving around at idle.

From that tech thread a few years back, Radial was kind enough to post up the displacements of various pumps in post #131:

CBR Steering Pumps - OEM Applications?

Good to see people that get it, nice work. Since there is so much talk about pump displacements, here is what I have measured and know to be true to help you guys keep your numbers accurate:

• TC pumps: 0.64 in3 (10.5cc)
• SPX-1/CBR XR race pump: 0.67 in3 (11.3cc)
• Cast iron CB pumps including my CB-X series: 0.80 in3 (13.1cc)
• P pumps: 0.95 in3 (15.6cc)
• CBR pumps: Varies... I have found everything from 0.67in3 to 0.95in3 in the ones I have opened up including new and rebuilt PSC models
• "Trophy Truck" pumps (based on a Saginaw big bearing model referred to as P235 although they go by a few names): 1.22 in3 (20.0cc)

So my current TC should be around ~0.64 cu/in per rev, and the CB is 0.80 cu/in per rev, giving around ~25% more volume. But the CB has the shaft riding on a bushing which is definitely inferior to the bearings of the TC, so I may just jump to one of Radial's products as well in the long run

 

[JR4X]

Hmm. The CB's displace more volume per revolution, so if I gave it the same diameter pulley as the TC I'm running, I should have more volume at idle by whatever the percentage difference is. I don't want to drill out the orofice of the flow control from where it is as my flow beyond that point already feels great, just want to get more volume moving around at idle.

From that tech thread a few years back, Radial was kind enough to post up the displacements of various pumps in post #131:

CBR Steering Pumps - OEM Applications?



So my current TC should be around ~0.64 cu/in per rev, and the CB is 0.80 cu/in per rev, giving around ~25% more volume. But the CB has the shaft riding on a bushing which is definitely inferior to the bearings of the TC, so I may just jump to one of Radial's products as well in the long run

Is it hard to steer on the floor unless you rev it up?

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Is it hard to steer on the floor unless you rev it up?

Nah it's easy so the pressure is good even at idle, I just hit a wall in regards to how fast it will let me turn the steering wheel. Then adding revs improves the lock to lock time right up until the flow cutoff point (somewhere around like 1,500 engine RPMs give or take with the current orofice diameter)

 

[JR4X]

Ok. Then it is the pump not keeping up at idle. I have no change in steering performance between idle and WOT. I don’t run into resistance turning the wheel unless I lug it down to near dying which I can do because manual trans.

Nah it's easy so the pressure is good even at idle, I just hit a wall in regards to how fast it will let me turn the steering wheel. Then adding revs improves the lock to lock time right up until the flow cutoff point (somewhere around like 1,500 engine RPMs give or take with the current orofice diameter)

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Ok. Then it is the pump not keeping up at idle. I have no change in steering performance between idle and WOT. I don’t run into resistance turning the wheel unless I lug it down to near dying which I can do because manual trans.

Yeah that sounds like perfection. I would much rather have the flow cutoff point right around idle to minimize that change in volume through the RPM range as you note with your system. Though I want that point faster than what the pump can currently deliver at idle

 

[RadialDynamics]

Hmm. The CB's displace more volume per revolution, so if I gave it the same diameter pulley as the TC I'm running, I should have more volume at idle by whatever the percentage difference is. I don't want to drill out the orofice of the flow control from where it is as my flow beyond that point already feels great, just want to get more volume moving around at idle.

From that tech thread a few years back, Radial was kind enough to post up the displacements of various pumps in post #131:

CBR Steering Pumps - OEM Applications?



So my current TC should be around ~0.64 cu/in per rev, and the CB is 0.80 cu/in per rev, giving around ~25% more volume. But the CB has the shaft riding on a bushing which is definitely inferior to the bearings of the TC, so I may just jump to one of Radial's products as well in the long run

You are definitely dealing with lack of flow at idle which explains the feeling of hitting a wall until you rev up.

I should probably add a disclaimer to that post in the CBR thread from way back, considering the additional information I have since learned from working directly with the OEM manufacturer of Saginaw steering pumps plus all of the additional experience I have gained with other companies' pumps since then. Although looking back at my post and just going based on measurements of what I had my hands on at the time, my numbers were pretty darn close.

For starters, all of my TC pumps use an 11.0cc/rev cam ring set but TC's can also be found from certain OEM applications with an 8.5cc displacement cam ring.

CB and CBR pumps have available displacements from 9.4 up to 15.0cc/rev. The CB-X pumps I used to sell, which were CB pumps made by another aftermarket steering company to my pressure/flow specs, started off using all 13.2cc rings although I did find them sprinkling in some 15.0cc rings during the time they were supplying me with pumps. For reference, Trail Gear's pumps are a CB type pump with 9.4cc displacement.

Unless you are buying a pump from a known manufacturer that can tell you exactly what displacement ring you are getting, then there is no guarantee. Especially with a parts store reman pump, it is a complete crap shoot regardless of what the spec from the OEM application called out for displacement.

The other factors to consider are the materials of the internals and shaft design. I would avoid using the CB pump because a) it may not actually be larger displacement without opening it up and measuring the cam ring and b) the c-clip shaft design is particularly sensitive to belt alignment and internal pressures which can result in rapid wear (same goes for CBR and P pumps). By comparison, the TC pump having a press fit ball bearing ends up having no c-clip on the shaft and so the rotor is fully floating.

As for cam ring material, the majority of OEM applications use a powdered metal ring which wears a lot quicker than the bar stock machined, hardened, and ground rings that I use in the Pro Series TC pumps. Because the materials are that much more wear resistant, the Pro Series pumps hold up extremely well at high pressure and high rpm so I feel more comfortable overdriving them to make up extra flow at idle. I have no problems sending these pumps up to 8K+ max rpm if necessary.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Excellent info as always man, cool additional details on pump volumes. And I wasn't aware of the difference of materials between your rings and OEM ones, that's slick.

Because this is good stuff we’re covering that might get talked about every now and then, but rarely has these video references, here’s another one I took tonight. Not super tech heavy or anything, just talking about how the pressure is good and my steering power at idle is fantastic, but volume at idle could be improved. I know this might be a bit of a side tangent of this thread, but seems related enough to be helpful. If I went with the smaller 2" DE ram mentioned earlier in this thread, much less volume would be required so I'd be able to steer faster. But this is a heavy rig with big tires, so I'm still happy I went with a 2.5" ram, sacrificing some speed for more power. I just might up the pump size to accompany that in the future

 

[Bebop]

Because the materials are that much more wear resistant, the Pro Series pumps hold up extremely well at high pressure and high rpm so I feel more comfortable overdriving them to make up extra flow at idle. I have no problems sending these pumps up to 8K+ max rpm if necessary.

That has been tested many times with great success

 

[410sgarage]

Excellent info as always man, cool additional details on pump volumes. And I wasn't aware of the difference of materials between your rings and OEM ones, that's slick.

Because this is good stuff we’re covering that might get talked about every now and then, but rarely has these video references, here’s another one I took tonight. Not super tech heavy or anything, just talking about how the pressure is good and my steering power at idle is fantastic, but volume at idle could be improved. I know this might be a bit of a side tangent of this thread, but seems related enough to be helpful. If I went with the smaller 2" DE ram mentioned earlier in this thread, much less volume would be required so I'd be able to steer faster. But this is a heavy rig with big tires, so I'm still happy I went with a 2.5" ram, sacrificing some speed for more power. I just might up the pump size to accompany that in the future

you have a direct line to get a hold of you for your products?

 

[Big4x4ride]

Since now I'm not the one reviving an old thread lol, I've been kicking this exact idea around. Current running 99-04 SD 60 in my rig and the only way to squeeze the ram in was to utilize offset TRE's to push the tie rod out an extra inch. Due to a mishap with a spun pinion race, I'm going to end up building another front axle and would like to get away from the offset TRE's if at all possible. Rig is a dual purpose street/offroad JK, sees plenty of rocks (going to Moab in 2 days actually), and also drives to work at 75-80 on the highway at least once a week. Running a PSC pump currently, stock steering box, and a 1.75x6.75" ram. Thinking of going to a the Surplus center 2.0" x 8" DE ram and keeping the same box an pump, or even moving on to the Radial dynamics Trail Series TC pump. Quick half ass math comparing the 2x8 DE to a 1.75x8 SE (I'm repositioning my steering arm placement to utilize 8" of throw this time). * Also added the 2.5x8x1.5 for grins *

2.0x8x1.25 DE
Bore = 25.12 ci
Rod = 9.8125 ci
8" travel fluid volume = 15.3075 ci
1" travel fluid volume = 1.9134 ci

1.75x8x.75 SE
Bore = 25.12 ci
Rod = 3.5325 ci
8" travel fluid volume = 19.2325 ci / 15.7 ci (varies based on which side of piston)
1" travel fluid volume = 2.404 ci / 1.9625 ci (varies based on which side of piston)

2.5x8x1.5 DE
Bore = 39.25 ci
Rod = 14.13 ci
8" travel fluid volume = 25.12 ci
1" travel fluid volume = 3.14 ci

Based on that (and I may be entirely wrong here), the 2x8x1.25 DE should actually require less volume to operate. So I guess the question for me here is, how does this feel on the highway? Still feel like normal steering with assist, or does it take away some road feel and feel like full hydro somewhat? My wife drives this thing on occasion too, so I want to be sure I keep it comfortable in that sense. if it were only me, the box would be gone and an orbital in its place lol.