Ghetto Fab.
No idea what I'm doing
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Why not just put some bends in the bar and run standard TREs?
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Double ended ram hydro assist
- Thread starter Slander
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- hydro assist ram
Sean
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Thanks for the explanation..... Good luck with the new set up!
I spoke to a couple of my friends who ran/run the “full hydro assist”
They ran much bigger rams. A traditional full hydro 2.5in ram so that probably explains the slowness. Your math on the 2in ram may be enough. I know with a 1.5in ram I have no issues with the pump playing catch up. It seems the 2in DE ram may be on par with the 1.5in SE ram
Big4x4ride
Red Skull Member
Never been a fan of a bent tie rod personally. Definitely an option, just one I’ve chose to avoid.
Fwjeep
Active member
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I think a lot of people are missing out what makes the 'full hydro assist' work well, when it doesn't use a steering box piston in the system (aka the 4500 class steering) . Take a look at the cylinder displacement numbers. 25.12cuin of fluid for what many would consider a good full hydro ram , 2.5x1.5x8, is LESS the the traditional saginaw steering box at 2.75diameter and 2.5" stroke, 14.84cuin PLUS the 1.75x8" at 19.23, total 34.07 . This means less fluid to move, less time lock to lock. this is what makes the double ended 'assist' work so well. however when you just try and add a double ended ram to a system including the factory box, its going to be much slower then 'traditional" and you going down a rabbit hole of bigger pumps, more cooling, bigger resi, ported boxes, and bigger lines.
simply, a ram directly on the axle can deliver more power, and require less supporting hardware. this was also the driving principal behind why full hydro worked so well for the early buggies in the the late 1990's.
If your going to use a steering box, stick with a smaller ram.
if using a sweet servo, or similar, with just a ram on the axle (double ended is not required) go with something bigger, like a 2.5x1.5x8"
I too have been looking at the Woodward steering servo. not for the flow numbers, trust me a sweet servo from howe can flow enough, but for the cost at trying different servo torsion rod sizes at 45$ a pop. Yes, setting them up is going to take some knowledge and experience on getting them on centre. we changed torsion bars ourselves on the sweet servos, to get dialled in. when we finally had the size we wanted, we had one servo that needed new internals anyways, so we called howe. the would only sell internals as 1 whole piece, and even then with an interrogation of if we knew how to put it together properly. over 600$. also Woodward sells different porting options, or different power curves vs effort. the Va955 interests me the most. some trophy trucks have ran these in recent years.
the 4500 class has made for better steering in trail rigs and race rigs. new products coming out from manufacturers may make this even easier and better in the near future.
simply, a ram directly on the axle can deliver more power, and require less supporting hardware. this was also the driving principal behind why full hydro worked so well for the early buggies in the the late 1990's.
If your going to use a steering box, stick with a smaller ram.
if using a sweet servo, or similar, with just a ram on the axle (double ended is not required) go with something bigger, like a 2.5x1.5x8"
I too have been looking at the Woodward steering servo. not for the flow numbers, trust me a sweet servo from howe can flow enough, but for the cost at trying different servo torsion rod sizes at 45$ a pop. Yes, setting them up is going to take some knowledge and experience on getting them on centre. we changed torsion bars ourselves on the sweet servos, to get dialled in. when we finally had the size we wanted, we had one servo that needed new internals anyways, so we called howe. the would only sell internals as 1 whole piece, and even then with an interrogation of if we knew how to put it together properly. over 600$. also Woodward sells different porting options, or different power curves vs effort. the Va955 interests me the most. some trophy trucks have ran these in recent years.
the 4500 class has made for better steering in trail rigs and race rigs. new products coming out from manufacturers may make this even easier and better in the near future.
Big4x4ride
Red Skull Member
Maybe I'm missing something here, or maybe we are talking 2 different directions all together. How is a system that requires less fluid going to be slower, require a bigger pump, bigger reservoir, bigger cooler, etc??
I'm specifically talking about changing from a 1.75" x 8.00" hydro assist single ended ram with a .75" rod diamater. (Specs below)
1.75x8x.75 SE
Bore = 25.12 ci
Rod = 3.5325 ci
8" travel fluid volume = 19.2325 ci / 15.7 ci (varies based on which side of piston)
1" travel fluid volume = 2.404 ci / 1.9625 ci (varies based on which side of piston)
And going to the below 2" x 8" Double ended ram with a 1.25" shaft using the following specs.
2.0x8x1.25 DE
Bore = 25.12 ci
Rod = 9.8125 ci
8" travel fluid volume = 15.3075 ci
1" travel fluid volume = 1.9134 ci
Less fluid overall required by just a small amount, and actually when comparing the fluid required by the DE ram to the shaft side of the SE ram the required volume per inch is almost the same. Using the same box already in the system, the same pump already on the system, and the same cooler shouldn't be an issue in this case.
I think we are all looking at different directions on this same topic, some are looking for quick steering for a go fast race build, and some are looking for something that has road manners and isn't going to be too fast or too slow on the road, and still work well offroad.
I cant see a reason that going to a DE setup based on the above numbers would have any odd feeling to it, and not work just as well as a SE setup for assist. Obviously going to a larger DE setup, like a 2.5x8 is an entirely different story as we are talking about significantly more fluid being required. Then again, I'm behind a keyboard right now trying to decide what path to go, and not actually currently using this setup to confirm this.
I think we are all looking at different setups and it is causing some confusion.
On paper, your proposed setup makes sense, maybe it wont in the real world? I do not know.....
Then we have people talking about the seperate sweet/howe and woodward setups that run a traditionally sized DE ram (2.5) and a box and that seems to be the race setup.
Maybe we make a new thread for non race DE rams setups with a steering box that does not use a separate servo.
On paper, your proposed setup makes sense, maybe it wont in the real world? I do not know.....
Then we have people talking about the seperate sweet/howe and woodward setups that run a traditionally sized DE ram (2.5) and a box and that seems to be the race setup.
Maybe we make a new thread for non race DE rams setups with a steering box that does not use a separate servo.
Slander
Team no stickys
That's what this thread was supposed to be, DE ram hydro assist for a street driven (1-11hrs of highway driving to the trail) trail rig. I would recommend starting a thread for the race systems, and keeping the non race talk in here.
I currently have a SE ram hydro assist that works good, but now that this thread has been bumped im thinking DE again
This is actually the correct thread for that. I know my stuff seems race specific. But I’m in here trying my best to keep you guys from mismatching parts. Every piece matters or it doesn’t work. I’ve got lots of my trail adapted setups out in the wild working just fine. Also got DIY’rs that thought they could do it cheaper who pissed away time and money on something they never did get to work right.
Slander
Team no stickys
I enjoy reading what you post and the knowledge shared around steering setups!
And I have a race specific DE ram with steering box thread. So no new threads needed.I enjoy reading what you post and the knowledge shared around steering setups!
So it isn't that we need new threads, I am just a moron 
I have been thinking about the double ended ram route as well. It seems it is getting more popular. Years ago it was "IT WONT WORK" but people are experimenting and it isnt so foreign anymore.
JR4X you may have mentioned it here so maybe I missed it but what is your "trail adapted" setup and how does it differ from the race setup.
I have been thinking about the double ended ram route as well. It seems it is getting more popular. Years ago it was "IT WONT WORK" but people are experimenting and it isnt so foreign anymore.
JR4X you may have mentioned it here so maybe I missed it but what is your "trail adapted" setup and how does it differ from the race setup.
Same basic parts just “smaller” cheaper parts. Junkyard XJ steering box because those are 12:1 ratio (3 turn) cheaper readily available PSC TC pump. Still a 2 1/2”x8” double ended ram. Off the shelf sweet valve with a 200 or 210 torsion bar. This 1 ton Comando on 40’s has been a daily driver/trail rig. My brother Kevin packaged this up for the owner.So it isn't that we need new threads, I am just a moron
I have been thinking about the double ended ram route as well. It seems it is getting more popular. Years ago it was "IT WONT WORK" but people are experimenting and it isnt so foreign anymore.
JR4X you may have mentioned it here so maybe I missed it but what is your "trail adapted" setup and how does it differ from the race setup.
This quoted post is from 2016 from PBB. No remote servo. Modified the steering box to power the DE ram off the servo in the box while still de-powering the piston in the box itself
As an experiment to see if the integrated servo could work as well as the remote one. I modified a box to simplify packaging. I free floated the piston and welded the ports from the servo to the gear box shut, then ported the servo as big as I could. Installed the same 2 1/2" PSC double ended ram that we put on our original build. The steering works and its powerful, buts its slow. My lock to lock is 2 3/4 turn but the servo in the box restricts flow, even though it's ported. The fittings in and out of the box are -6 an which have 1/4" ID ports. The sweet servo I spec'd out in my original post have -8 ports which are 5/16". The real restriction is the inlet to the steering box because you cant port the check valve that sits right below the HP feed.
This port on the end of the gear box is 7/32. I wanted to cut some round stock and plug the hole then weld over it. I couldn't find any 7/32 stock so I bought a cheap drill bit from walmart and cut the shank off the back. I pounded the plug in and welded the hole shut, then buffed it smooth with a flap wheel on a die grinder. Once I got rolling I forgot to keep taking pics, sorry.
On the other end, the servo end, the port is 1/4 inch. I cut the head off a grade 8 1/4" bolt and cut the threads off so that I had a solid 1/4' plug. Welded it in and ground the weld down with a worn down zip wheel on my die grinder. again no pics but picture these holes welded shut.
You'll notice the scratching in the bottom of the bore in the first pic. My guinea pig box had a sector shaft break a tooth off, then get ground the bits into the bottom of the housing ruining the case. I polished the bore so that the piston without the O-rings moved freely inside knowing that it was already garbage anyway.
On the piston, here I have marked where I made my cuts to disable the piston and "free float" it. I only cut on top and bottom because there is no load placed up or down. I leave the sides alone because the force of the gear teeth pushing away from each other pushes the piston into the side of the case. I also cut the end off where this 3/8 extension would go, so that fluid can travel through the very open recirculated ball area from one end of the piston to the other as well as through the 1/8" wide X 1/8" deep cuts that run the length of the piston.
The cause of the damage that ruined this box, A new shaft was put in its place.
So its done and it works. While it is not as effortless or as fast as V-1 that we put on dads 4531 rig (seriously his is the best of the best) it is a simpler install and is much better than a normal ram assist setup with a powered gear box and tiny assist ram. I'm going to run the next EMC with this modified junker box.
This pic is at full bump and full lock to the right. Its close but clear is clear and I can't imagine the event that I could get it to bottom out at full lock so not concerned. Took the pic to show my dad.
So I'm happy to report that the steering works great. It doesn't beat Version but it beats regular ram assist. In the high speed its awesome, great feed back, return to center, very responsive. Bound up in the rocks it will move the tires just like full hydro. I was able to get it in a situation where I couldn't steer and it broke a tie rod. Ripped the bung out of the tube. I had good penetration on both sides, a steel bung mig welded into chromo seamless, it broke the weld right through the center. It was a pretty easy fix and kept wheeling the rest of the weekend.
If I was building a new 4500 car from scratch, there is no way I wouldn't use the servo from Howe. It really is worth the money. People keep asking me what Howe does to it that makes it so expensive and I don't know. The original one we put on 4531 has never been removed from the truck since getting installed in 14. I've been asked to take one apart and see what's different inside. Even if I had I haven't seen the inside of what a servo straight from Sweet looks like so I wouldn't know what the difference is anyway. We have a brand new servo still in a sealed box and a brand new PSC turned up TC pump for if and when the first ones quit working. I'm not opening and disassembling brand new parts so that you cheap fawks can figure out how to circumvent PSC and Howe's R&D. I appreciate all the interest though.
Big4x4ride
Red Skull Member
Forgive me for sounding like an idiot here possibly, but I am still lost on why any internal mods, or any remote servo would be needed when changing from a 1.75x8 SE to a 2x8 DE? The volume numbers are almost identical on the 2 specific sizes.
Now, I can fully see the problem going to a 2.5x8 DE or even SE for that matter as there is significantly more volume required there. I can also see the problem with changing to different steering box ratios, and having the box try to outrun the ram. If the 1.75x8 SE operates well both on and offroad with no ill effects, from the fluid volume standpoint I would think the 2.0x8 DE would work the same, or possibly better seeing that the volume required is equal in both directions. Maybe what I feel is normal on my particular setup is slow by others definition? I do know I've never felt that I was unable to safely steer in any instance thus far though. On the rocks, as long as I'm not really hung up, steering has been fine, but i still baby it some as there is always sector shaft concerns with the JK boxes.
Now, I can fully see the problem going to a 2.5x8 DE or even SE for that matter as there is significantly more volume required there. I can also see the problem with changing to different steering box ratios, and having the box try to outrun the ram. If the 1.75x8 SE operates well both on and offroad with no ill effects, from the fluid volume standpoint I would think the 2.0x8 DE would work the same, or possibly better seeing that the volume required is equal in both directions. Maybe what I feel is normal on my particular setup is slow by others definition? I do know I've never felt that I was unable to safely steer in any instance thus far though. On the rocks, as long as I'm not really hung up, steering has been fine, but i still baby it some as there is always sector shaft concerns with the JK boxes.
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You would be correct. And those are both pathetic as far as output pounds of force go. You actually lose pounds of steering force by going to the DE ram in that scenario. So why do it? The 1.75 ram with a 1600 psi pump puts out 3848 in one direction and 3142 in the other direction. With the same pump the 2.0 ram puts out 3063 in both directions. You lose money, time, and steering force. Lose lose if you ask me.
Big4x4ride
Red Skull Member
Ok, that makes sense, but both those numbers would be more than adequate for a stock box/hydro assist setup. Obviously not an ideal competition/race setup, but more than sufficient for the majority using assist. You figure many are actually using 1.5x8 assist rams which are only 2827/2337 lbs of force with that same pump.
broken4_racing
Well-known member
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I agree with JR4X on this one. I don't see a point in the swap. The only argument I could make for it is that with a DE ram most people will install a skid to protect it so it would have a side effect of a better protected "tie rod" so less risk of bending it. Even that isn't worth the time or money.
If your spending money on a dual end ram, you might as well do the 2.5 and pull the box apart for the mods. Cost is the same, number of parts is the same, however you end up with a far superior system.
If your spending money on a dual end ram, you might as well do the 2.5 and pull the box apart for the mods. Cost is the same, number of parts is the same, however you end up with a far superior system.
Ovrez
Drove Away
I may be a little slower to understand than others and just to make sure I understand correctly.
Steering shaft from steering wheel to Small Power Steering Control Valve to another steering shaft to connect to stock steering box.
Small Power Steering Control Valve is connected to power steering pump and reservoir tank, left side of power steering ram and right side of power steering ram.
Is there still power steering fluid going to stock steering box?
If not, What goes in stock steering box?
Steering shaft from steering wheel to Small Power Steering Control Valve to another steering shaft to connect to stock steering box.
Small Power Steering Control Valve is connected to power steering pump and reservoir tank, left side of power steering ram and right side of power steering ram.
Is there still power steering fluid going to stock steering box?
If not, What goes in stock steering box?
Yes
No
Fill it up with power steering fluid and sealed tight. A steering box is built to be lubricated with power steering fluid sealed and pressurized to full pump pressure. It’s not going to hit 1600 psi without a pump pushing on itIf not, What goes in stock steering box?
I see pros and cons to going each route.
If your happy with your 1.5in ram setup overall but have certain nuances like your breaking TREs or you keep bending tie rods (I was there until I did stress proof)
The pro is the you gain a little bit of performance (3k force over 2800/2300.)
But spend more money once and don’t waste time/effort/money for when you start having problems as you push your rig harder.
3 years ago I wasn’t pushing my rig hard enough to have the wheel ripped out of my hand. It’s happened 2 times in the past 6 months as I try to drive my heavy turd faster and faster. So the servo sounds appealing
If your happy with your 1.5in ram setup overall but have certain nuances like your breaking TREs or you keep bending tie rods (I was there until I did stress proof)
The pro is the you gain a little bit of performance (3k force over 2800/2300.)
But spend more money once and don’t waste time/effort/money for when you start having problems as you push your rig harder.
3 years ago I wasn’t pushing my rig hard enough to have the wheel ripped out of my hand. It’s happened 2 times in the past 6 months as I try to drive my heavy turd faster and faster. So the servo sounds appealing
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
So if I wanted to do this, would you need to drill and tap for the ports to the cyl directly into the servo?
The only drill and taps I've done were on ifs boxes and it's definitely not into the servo area.
Yes, on a Saginaw box the ports for the ram are in the servo. I haven’t edited that old post but in my pics I showed welding two holes shut. But it turns you only need to do the easy one on the big end of the box. It’s pointless to weld the other one shut. You still need to free float the piston but you do not have to mess with the servo itself, no locking out of the torsion bar.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
I've never seen a drill and tap done on the servo itself. Looking at aftermarket kits, they typically seem to replace the servo housing with thier own part to achieve this.
Would it even be possible to drill and tap the servo housing?
The first time I ever found pirate4x4 was searching for a DIY ram assist how to. That link doesn’t show up anymore but now days we have YouTube. This is a decent how to on a Saginaw box. Fast forward to 13 min 22 seconds to skip the bs.
https://youtu.be/2bR3OVXOaTs?si=2lpseD81NytgzMj_
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
Let's say I decide to keep my Toyota box, or get a jk box. I guess I'd just have to pull it apart to figure out exactly where to drill and tap the servo?
I cannot help you make this work with a Toyota box. I’m not your huckleberry on metric mini truck stuff. I tried to help a guy do a remote servo and a disabled toy IFS box and it was my first FAIL with the DE ram assist system. Never could dial out the shakes
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
I'm not married to that box at all, just curious if disabling the box and using the integrated servo would transfer to other boxes besides the big Saginaw.