1940 Cincinnati No 2 High Speed Vertical Mill Partial Refurb and Repairs

[ThePanzerFuhrer]

starrett 22c or equivalent and a nicely dressed bench grinder wheel is really all you need to get your bits working great

I prefer a belt grinder for that

 

[[486]]

I prefer a belt grinder for that

Mine vibrates too much
really should get around to balancing my fabricated rollers...
also won't thin the web like a grinder wheel will

 

[AlxJ64]

Do you even have enough X/Y stability in the quill for a boring bar? Seems like a recipe for snapped carbide.

It seems rather tight and wouldn't run the quill far from the work. Wouldn't be doing anything too large, just some weird sizes that I may not have a drill or reamer for, or something too large yet for the Cinci. I was thinking just some HSS ground to what was needed.

starrett 22c or equivalent and a nicely dressed bench grinder wheel is really all you need to get your bits working great

I've got one, and use it for getting close but I also have M.S. and that sometimes plays into how stable I am with freehand work. (read I am a wobbly SOB at times)

I have little money tied up in this older Sterling grinder. Will work well enough for my projects.

 

[AlxJ64]

This thing was defiantly beaten apart in the past and then cobbled back together. I finally took the dust cover off of the top spindle bearing assembly to find the threads on the nut banged to hell and the key seat for the double bearing lock wedged into place and it would not come out, so I beat the thing the rest of the way and will repair the threads. Spindle is removed... got the head partially freed up but need to release the counter-weights inside the top of the column housing yet and just ran out of steam. I was finally able to get a better look at the pinion gear for the head feed after lifting the head some and she's trashed. The rack looks like it has some missing teeth as well. Not sure if machining whole assembly from stock or trying to find matching ratio stuff and adapting it. Put my $180 engine crane to work.

Standing on a ladder swinging that ^ sledge was awkward... standing on the knee ways there where the rag roll and screwdriver are was much more comfortable.

 

[AlxJ64]

So after I had finished working on this thing yesterday, and I was eating a late dinner, something dawned on me; the book calls out double taper bearings at each end of the spindle... but I didn't see the bearing on the spindle base when it was taken out... Thought "ugh oh, is it somehow grease suctioned up into the housing still? So I run back downstairs to the shop and peer up into the head, nothing. So I look around the shop for a grease trail to see if it had fallen out and rolled off. Nothing... look again. There is no bearing there and there is No bearing on TOP of the double taper race that is still inside the head.. WTF. Explains why the bottom spindle nut was loose. Explains why the top spindle nut key had been boogered back and threads galled. This damn thing was no doubt a parts machine.

I'll pull the dimensions later and see what I have on hand for bearings. I already looked at the double tapers that came out of the top and they are 496- class 2s.. I actually have 2 of those on hand from my giant auction lot of bearings a few years ago. Dumb luck. Watch me not have the bottom ones... or, worse yet, they are 552D and 558s which I have sold all of them on eBay already.

 

[arse_sidewards]

What was the order of operations for the spindle removal?

I assume you're gonna continue and pull the head?

 

[[486]]

wow, totally missing the spindle bearings all together
that's a new one for me

 

[vetteboy79]

Wait. So what was the spindle snugged up against? Just bottomed out on a shoulder or something?

 

[AlxJ64]

What was the order of operations for the spindle removal?

I assume you're gonna continue and pull the head?

Yea, its still work in progress as time permits. Its the "do all the things for everyone else" season right now so probably be slow moving. I found the bearing part numbers for the lowers based on some deep internet digging. Appears that they are 52387W Timken, which just means they have a key seat ground into the cone, and that makes sense as the uppers did and I did pull the key out of the shoulder of the spindle behind the lower spindle nut stuck in the grease, as I assumed it had just worked its way to where it was and was stuck to the spindle.

To remove spindle -

1. Position head relatively low or flush with bottom of neck
2. Remove snap ring in top of spindle threads above upper dust cap.
3. Remove 4 screws in dust cap
4. Loosen lock nut in spindle nut
5. Use spanner or drift to remove upper spindle nut
6. Using pliers, remove keyset from bearing cone and spindle shaft (all fine if it was installed correctly but since the last person in mine didn't seat the bearing all the way on the shoulder, but rather into the radius of the keyway where it tapers out, it was smashed and wedged into the ends of the keyway and threads of the spindle holding the upper bearing a slight bit crooked in the race. No amount of lifting, prying, or likewise was letting it go so I ended up driving the key past the end of the keyway and through the spindle threads that I couldn't even see because the bearing cone was covering them.)
7. Raise knee up and block under spindle with 1/4" gap
8. Remove front cover to expose lower spindle nut.
9. Remove set screw in spindle nut and using drift, loosen spindle nut.
10. Lift spindle nut and remove key (my spindle nut was already loose and the key was sitting in the spindle keyway behind it, I couldn't see down into the recess where the bearing should have been nor did I even look, I was too happy that the key was already loose as I hadn't yet decided I was going to just drive the upper one past.)
11. At this point, using appropriate non marring striking tools, gently drive the spindle through the top sets of cone bearings and lower the table incremental as the block catches the spindle. Once the spindle is free of the bearing shoulders, move the table saddle fully forward and raise the head fully up and the spindle will come out.

wow, totally missing the spindle bearings all together
that's a new one for me

The lower pair... not there. And the upper pair were installed in such a way that they seemed snug but were in fact it was the upper race was dislodged and bound, and then the spindle and cone installed with the keyway in the seat. I didn't run the spindle more than a few revolutions under power just to show it worked, and glad of that.

Wait. So what was the spindle snugged up against? Just bottomed out on a shoulder or something?

Yes, the cone shoulder on the spindle was drawn up against the lower bearing race shoulder and the diameters match enough inside the bearing retainer plate that it didn't wobble and because of the crooked installed key seat mess in the top bearing. ie, they had it pinched together enough to make it seem together but it was just wedged in there and floating just enough.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Appears that they are 52387W Timken, which just means they have a key seat ground into the cone,

Those are not cheap.


I hope mine are ok after sitting around for so long. Presumably everything was lubricated but still....

 

[AlxJ64]

Those are not cheap.


I hope mine are ok after sitting around for so long. Presumably everything was lubricated but still....

Long as there's no water in there, should be good.

I intend on getting two non-Ws and then just having the key opening ground into them. its just a nice little radius grove in the top of the cone, nothing down the shank.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Long as there's no water in there, should be good.

Yeah, that's my worry. There was like a month between when I paid for mine and when I picked it up and they moved it outside with a tarp over the knee at some point in between and it's been sitting in an unheated garage since (which should be fine, at least internally, things only seem to sweat much externally).

 

[AlxJ64]

Yeah, that's my worry. There was like a month between when I paid for mine and when I picked it up and they moved it outside with a tarp over the knee at some point in between and it's been sitting in an unheated garage since (which should be fine, at least internally, things only seem to sweat much externally).

Could always pull a few covers off and soak the thing in a water displacing penetrant? Hit a few shots of grease into the cups and move things around some. Sitting locked in place allows the pitting to occur, but then again giving it more oxygen by moving it may not be great either. Dunno.
Whats the ETA until you get it moved to where you want it and start working on it? I just Best Offered one replacement bearing for mine off of epay for $70 shipped and I reached out to the guy I got my knee handle from about seeing if they had any parts from the one they dismantled and scrapped and he seems to think they kept any bearing, handle, or pulley for use on building other junk and will see what they have. The bearing without the key actually cross references to a late '70s / early '80s Rockwell truck axle carrier bearing.


Hey cj7jeep81 My mail lady says you owe at LEAST her co-pay on her hernia surgery. Lol.
Actually, she's pulling some laughable shit. Glad I am not in a hurry for these because I am getting 1 box a day it seems; 2 of the 3 so far. The tracking on them says they all left the local distribution hub at the same time, none ever say out for delivery until after they are IN or AT the mailbox, which is not in great shape. The first one was in the box, the second, which was the tapping head and boring bar, was just on the ground. I know how my post office works, so there's no doubt her route's pile / bin is there and she sorted my stuff out and saw these 3 big heavy bastards and a few other small things and instead of dealing with all 3, coming up my driveway and dumping them on the porch, she's just taking one a day with my other mail and shoving it in the mailbox. Its also holding up other things that are coming in too because she's been sitting on these which stacks up other things behind them too.

So far I've gotten the few end mill holders and the face mill, and then the tapping head with collets and one of the boring bars. Thanks again for packing and shipping this stuff, really really appreciate it and its a damn pain. Huffing these boxes up my damn driveway counts as cardio. Guess I indeed need to get the clutch adjusted on this machine if I plan to do any sort of tapping. That or set the VFD to more aggressively DC brake when doing tapping work.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Could always pull a few covers off and soak the thing in a water displacing penetrant? Hit a few shots of grease into the cups and move things around some. Sitting locked in place allows the pitting to occur, but then again giving it more oxygen by moving it may not be great either. Dunno.
Whats the ETA until you get it moved to where you want it and start working on it? I just Best Offered one replacement bearing for mine off of epay for $70 shipped and I reached out to the guy I got my knee handle from about seeing if they had any parts from the one they dismantled and scrapped and he seems to think they kept any bearing, handle, or pulley for use on building other junk and will see what they have. The bearing without the key actually cross references to a late '70s / early '80s Rockwell truck axle carrier bearing.

Yeah I'm just gonna ignore it for now.

It's grease lubed so it's not like oil where the water gets to the bottom and sits trapped there. Anything that did get in should have long since evaporated out.

 

[cj7jeep81]

Glad they are making it. I wondered what was going on, as the tracking showed lots of delays, and spread out arrivals. Hopefully everything arrived Ok and the boxes survived. Your mail lady is lucky I put it in 3 medium boxes. Could have done 2 large, and not been overweight (but really close).

 

[AlxJ64]

Had some folks cancel holiday plans on me this weekend so Sunday was back to do things in the shop so of course I wanted to finally get this greasy bitch apart.

3/8-16" threaded holes already exist in the top of the counterweights so using the big crane and my pullzall cordless winch I was able to unload the weights from the cross shaft, pop the chains apart, and then set them back in the bottom of the weight box. I then drove the taper pins out of the two counterweight sprockets and drove the cross shaft out to remove the sprockets and the shaft. I could then re-hook to the counterweight on the feedbox side of the machine and lift it out.
They look like lead but they are harder than lead, the marks and scoring / smearing in the one from when someone was trying to get that last little bit out of the feed box teeth shows how it smeared. I am thinking it's Babbit, which fwiw the last time I took Babbit in for scrap, I got $8.20 / lb for it. Yes, per lb. The yard used their X-ref and did it based on percentage of tin and the price of that at the time. If they really are Babbit, the counterweights are worth more than the rest of the machine is in iron scrap.

Anyways, this damn weight is awkward. And the rack and pinion are 100% trashed.

Found this '70s or '80s era Challenger wrench in the machine laying under the counterweight. Not a single thing in the top of this machine is a 9/16". Some of the bolts holding the feed-box cover on are 3/8"-16, which would normally be a 9/16" but they're socket caps and not hex bolts. Who knows. It was layered in crud and this first picture is the down side face.

Weird soft metal like lead, but doesn't shave as easily as lead. Could be some alloy of lead that they were casting to make it harder so the threads would hold.

 

[surpip]

Machine a rack out of better material and bolt to weight?

 

[[486]]

cast another rack outta the filings and junk in the sump
and solder to the weight?

racks are kinda easy to cut though, since they just got flat sided triangular teeth

 

[arse_sidewards]

Wait, there's supposed to be a rack machined into that?

 

[AlxJ64]

cast another rack outta the filings and junk in the sump
and solder to the weight?

racks are kinda easy to cut though, since they just got flat sided triangular teeth

Wait, there's supposed to be a rack machined into that?

No, there's no gearing machined to the weight, rather you see where the past "attempt" at disassembly occurred and someone drove the pinion gear out of the feed box but into the head weights. Not sure if they were hoping there was some sort of extra room in there or something if the weight was dropped all the way down or but there isn't. The weight has to come out for the gear to come out.

I'll post some more pictures at lunch of other progress.

 

[AlxJ64]

So the rack is mounted to the back of the Head, which carries the spindle and that moves up and down through a 90 degree bevel gear assembly that is attached to the face of the column. The pinion gear is operated by the hand feed box on the operator's right side of the machine. In my case, I also have the powered feed system too, which is driven by a crown gear assembly fed from the feed range box on the right hand side up through the hand feed box which is no doubt what was left engaged and this was crashed.

So here is a better view of that pinion gear coming through the column and into the counterweight box where it drives the head up and down. The chain goes up and over a shaft that gives the counter weights the 1:1 to help lift the head. Also, that copper tube should be going inside the hole there, but was damaged in the past it appears. I'll fix that too. It oils the hand feed box and there is actually a sight glass that is under the tube for ensuring that oil is flowing. Its been oiling, because there is a puddle of clean gearbox oil in the bottom of the weight box that shouldn't be there.

The head weights 238 lbs without the spindle or bearings in it. Yes, I weighed it. I need to weigh one of the counterweights too.

Once I got the chains loose, I pulled the gib plates and lifted the head to the spot where the chain mounting post lined up with the port in the column and the whole head just came right forward. This should help make some sense now.

The head of this thing looks like its "Gonna go find its own Hookers and Blow, it don't need no friends to have a party" - Bender the Bending Robot

So here is looking at the Rack teeth on the back of the head, it is held on with two large socket cap screws that are countersunk into the ways of the head.

And behold, the real trashed up component. I know it was beat, but this is far worse than I could see peering in with a mirror and light.

Here is my shower thoughts plan so far: Based on the digging through my 1941 Publication of Machinery's Handbook to identify what this rack and pinion should have been machined as; The pinion was a 16 tooth 14-1/2 deg (standard of the time) with a root diameter, including clearance, of 1.6" best I can get. There is simply not enough there to measure much else other than it was 1" wide.
The rack is just a simple section of matching rack. Digging around, McMaster sells 16 tooth spur gear, that is machinable 1144 steel (not ideally weldable) in a 10 pitch. The matching 10 pitch 14-1/2 deg x 1" wide rack section is available too but not nearly as thick as what is on the head now.
I figure machine all this mangled mess off the pinion shaft, machine a key or two into the shaft, then bore the spur gear from McMaster to fit and broach a key slot or two in that. I'm thinking that the keyway is not likely to fail before the gears fail again. I could simply tack the gear head on, or I even thought of screw locking it with some set screws at 90 degrees of the two keys. I don't want to have to go back into this part of the machine again because hoooolly fawk is it obnoxious and messy. The other thought was to machine splines into the thing and then use the shaping head on the bridgeport (yes, I have one of those weird old "E" Heads" to internally spline the McMaster gear and then end retain it with some sort of drilled and tapped washer through the pinion shaft end.

As for the rack. I'd just drill and tap the piece from McMaster to where I can bolt a spacer block / adapter block to it and then mill the height of that to the correct overall mesh distance.

The other plan is to TIG build-up the pinion with weld, get a gear cutter and use the indexing head on the bridgeport and re-cut the teeth on this gear to match but the nothing on this part appears to be welded and I'd rather not risk some major brittle failure due to my poor experience in heat control / not having access to spray welding and I'm not bugging Adam Booth (Abom79) like the 900th person has messaged me on Instagram about doing because some of these pictures are already posted there. Theres perfect fixed, there's industrial fixed, and there's fixed enough to be a giant toy in a garage.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Was removing the spindle required in order to pull the head?


I think your keyway plan sounds more than good enough. I don't think there's any risk of breaking it unless you crash the Z or the quill and I don't think any of your other solutions would survive that so....

 

[AlxJ64]

Yes, absolutely! Otherwise the head wouldn't come off because the spindle passes through the drive gear. I meant to post this picture in the previous reply. I even set the upper spindle bearing race there to help visualize what the spindle is doing when explaining to someone else as I was doing it.

Inside that grease covered protrusion is the perpendicular crown here that the splines of the spindle slide through as the head moves up and down. There is no way to split that without taking is apart. You can unbolt the housing from the inside of the head but the main drive shaft is retained with big bearings, keys and spindle nuts that would need to come loose inside the column of the machine. Def not worth that mess.

 

[Trevlaw]

If you haven't used one before, a good quality industrial ultrasonic cleaner makes quick work of cleaning up a lot of these smaller parts and such. They're kinda spendy, but if you can pick up a used L&R, Crest, etc for a few hundred bucks they're worth it.

I put rusty shit in with 100% evaporust. 30 minutes in the heated tank and they come out rust free, it's like magic.

Making good progress, sorry to see all these fun surprises you're finding lol.

Also, anyone know where my post with the drill press went? If you deleted it, that's cool, just curious.

 

[AlxJ64]

If you haven't used one before, a good quality industrial ultrasonic cleaner makes quick work of cleaning up a lot of these smaller parts and such. They're kinda spendy, but if you can pick up a used L&R, Crest, etc for a few hundred bucks they're worth it.

I put rusty shit in with 100% evaporust. 30 minutes in the heated tank and they come out rust free, it's like magic.

Making good progress, sorry to see all these fun surprises you're finding lol.

Also, anyone know where my post with the drill press went? If you deleted it, that's cool, just curious.

The site had a crash over the weekend and a backup from earlier in the week was used for restoration; I had actually commented on how it was a cool drill press with the carriage sliding on the column. It was like someone turned a lathe into a drill press / mini VBM.

I've got a 40 gallon weird shaped tank of evaporust and a cheap Sous-vide cooker in it as a heater. Stuff works way better than vinegar for sure!
I do need to snag a parts washer / cleaner though sooner than later. I want something decent sized for all my random big shit that is here.

The silver lining in pulling the machine apart this far, is that it goes back together clean and tight and hopefully leak free. If I had to have pulled it this far down just to fix that copper oiling tube... oooo.. I'd have been way more frustrated.

 

[Trevlaw]

The site had a crash over the weekend and a backup from earlier in the week was used for restoration; I had actually commented on how it was a cool drill press with the carriage sliding on the column. It was like someone turned a lathe into a drill press / mini VBM.

I've got a 40 gallon weird shaped tank of evaporust and a cheap Sous-vide cooker in it as a heater. Stuff works way better than vinegar for sure!
I do need to snag a parts washer / cleaner though sooner than later. I want something decent sized for all my random big shit that is here.

The silver lining in pulling the machine apart this far, is that it goes back together clean and tight and hopefully leak free. If I had to have pulled it this far down just to fix that copper oiling tube... oooo.. I'd have been way more frustrated.

Oh ok gotcha. Yeah the highest power down feed rate is .043"/rev. I'm scared to try that out once I get it running lol. Kind of interesting, mine was made by Weigel Machine Tool, in business for a decade or so. But, if you look up Superior Drill Press, it's damn near identical down to the handles. Turns out Mr. Weigel worked for Superior, and when he left it seems he took a few boxes of parts with him lol.

A big 40 gallon tank is nice. I've also had pretty good luck with a rust electrolysis setup which would be awesome for big shit in a tank that large. For small stuff though the evaporust is too damn easy.

This thing is gonna be so rad when you're done though, can't imagine a project on this scale though. Took me like 2 months just to figure out how this Rivett turret lathe went together. Bought the whole lathe for $400 and the kid gives me a box of loose parts for the turret. He blew it apart, no pictures and manuals are non existent. Fun little puzzle

 

[PAToyota]

If you haven't used one before, a good quality industrial ultrasonic cleaner makes quick work of cleaning up a lot of these smaller parts and such. [snip] I put rusty shit in with 100% evaporust. 30 minutes in the heated tank and they come out rust free, it's like magic.

You know, I never thought of putting evaporust into my ultrasonic cleaner, but it makes perfect sense. I'm going to have to give that a try!

 

[AlxJ64]

This thing is gonna be so rad when you're done though, can't imagine a project on this scale though. Took me like 2 months just to figure out how this Rivett turret lathe went together. Bought the whole lathe for $400 and the kid gives me a box of loose parts for the turret. He blew it apart, no pictures and manuals are non existent. Fun little puzzle

Good luck with that jigsaw puzzle! Do you at least know the model of the lathe so that you can find some reference pictures on the internet? You're a brave soul there.

So I took your advice and browsed around and found a decent Crest US Cleaner for a reasonable price and will be picking it up over the holidays; guy said he used it a few times to clean some vintage radio parts. I asked if he had ever run it with out it being full, and he said never, it says in big letters not to operate unless full to the fill line. So, hopefully its in good working order.

You know, I never thought of putting evaporust into my ultrasonic cleaner, but it makes perfect sense. I'm going to have to give that a try!

So I saw where a guy was using glass jars with whatever solution in those and just weighting the tops to hold it in the basket and then was just using straight water in the US cleaner; that way he doesn't have to keep cleaning the cleaner and cycling through various solutions. I'm sure the glass absorbs some sound waves or changes the frequency though so not sure how much it may change the efficiency of the machine. Worth a try though.

 

[AlxJ64]

Ohh, and this little dealio found me. I have a B&S No 13 Universal Tool Grinder, but have not yet gotten around to wiring it up (due to the side of the shop its in being the one I JUST got 220V in - seeing a theme yet?) So anyways, this do-hickey has a 50 Taper on one end and a MT 5 on the other and came with a 5 to 4 sleeve installed in it already. Needs a locking pin and to be cleaned up some but hopefully it doesn't have too much run-out. Should allow me to sharpen some of the weird HSS tooling that came with the Cinci when I got it.

 

[PAToyota]

So I saw where a guy was using glass jars with whatever solution in those and just weighting the tops to hold it in the basket and then was just using straight water in the US cleaner; that way he doesn't have to keep cleaning the cleaner and cycling through various solutions.

That's typically what I do - put the "solvent" in a container within a water bath in the ultrasonic cleaner. I've also used zip lock bags at times.