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1940 Cincinnati No 2 High Speed Vertical Mill Partial Refurb and Repairs

How does that gear get lubricated in normal use? Pull cover and grease every so often?
 
arse_sidewards said:
How does that gear get lubricated in normal use? Pull cover and grease every so often?
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If at all. It only moves 1/3rd of a turn and then returns to center for actuating the speed or feed selector. The handle on the back of the gearbox does the same thing and this is just the remote lead. I don't need it for the machine to run, however the layout of my shop is not conducive to operating the controls from the side of the machine. It appears that at some point during transport, this machine was chained around the saddle / column and it wrecked the control bars so someone just removed them all together. The more I look at this thing, it really was "scrapped" at some point and then recovered and put back into use again.
 
Ohh yea, and the damn cover for the motor wiring connections... finally got off my ass and made one. Already had some 20 Ga on the table.
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Slung the motor back in this big thing yesterday evening. Starting to wire it all up to the VFD now. I'll be using the VFD for running other machines so I am going to have a pigtail for the controller switch and the extension cord to plug it in with. Hobby garage machine shop so the few times I am running machines, its not a big deal to move a cord around occasionally vs the cost of hard wiring everything in place with dedicated VFDs, etc. The unit I have lets me save a few different motor profiles in it, so I can switch it around depending on what machine I am running at the time.
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You do like the big ladies, what size lathe is behind the Cincinnati?
 
_ogre said:
You do like the big ladies, what size lathe is behind the Cincinnati?
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I like them fit and hardy, but not overly big. The lathe is an example of that. Its a Colchester Triumph Mk 1 (1 and a half really, as it has the wide spread english and metric thread box). Has the removable gap to give up to a 21" diameter x 6" capacity, 5hp 3ph, MT4 tailstock, 2-1/16" spindle bore, 48" centers, etc. Its a wonderfully versatile lathe. I have the "Student" model hiding behind it as well but it needs some restoration yet.

I'm looking for a Colchester Mascot, but they are few and far between in the US.

Colchester Triumph Lathes 1950s—1960s
 
AlxJ64 said:
I like them fit and hardy, but not overly big. The lathe is an example of that. Its a Colchester Triumph Mk 1 (1 and a half really, as it has the wide spread english and metric thread box). Has the removable gap to give up to a 21" diameter x 6" capacity, 5hp 3ph, MT4 tailstock, 2-1/16" spindle bore, 48" centers, etc. Its a wonderfully versatile lathe. I have the "Student" model hiding behind it as well but it needs some restoration yet.

I'm looking for a Colchester Mascot, but they are few and far between in the US.

Colchester Triumph Lathes 1950s—1960s
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What's the max spindle speed on that thing?

I really want to pick something up with a bigger spindle bore (2"+) but a lot of those older machines don't spin fast enough for my liking. I'd love to stumble across a mid-size Leblond Servoshift with the big bore one of these days...
 
bgaidan said:
What's the max spindle speed on that thing?

I really want to pick something up with a bigger spindle bore (2"+) but a lot of those older machines don't spin fast enough for my liking. I'd love to stumble across a mid-size Leblond Servoshift with the big bore one of these days...
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1000 rpm max speed on this thing, which I really only run at with my little Bison 6 jaw clone on it.
Same for the smaller "Student" model that is sitting behind it too though. Thats a 3.5" diameter front driveshaft I was building for my WC53 back in August.

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Got this thing off of that roller cart finally. That contraption worked pretty well for moving this burly beast without ever "picking it up". I beefed up my toe jack some more by adding a thicker bottom base plate to it and it side lifts the machine now easily. I had originally been using a 30T puck jack but it only gave me 5/8" of overall travel, which was a time vampire having to shim and block, shim and block.

I have a set of leveling feet on order to put under this thing. Debated going with the rubber version ones but decided against it as I can always try to add some sort of material under the feet if it becomes a need but I very very highly doubt it.

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Save your fancy self leveling feet for a project more deserving and grout it. If you don't want the grout/concrete to stick to the floor and mill you can throw the grout in plastic shopping bags before you shove it under.

The only reason I didn't do it on my lathe is because I was pressed for time and I will need to move it again a bunch of times to fit up a new motor and belt drive.
 
arse_sidewards said:
Save your fancy self leveling feet for a project more deserving and grout it. If you don't want the grout/concrete to stick to the floor and mill you can throw the grout in plastic shopping bags before you shove it under.

The only reason I didn't do it on my lathe is because I was pressed for time and I will need to move it again a bunch of times to fit up a new motor and belt drive.
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I LOATHE grout... For years as a Bridge and Highway Structures inspector, I've probably removed, with a chipping hammer mind you, YARDS of shitty terrible grout under the foundations of overhead signs, bridge bearing encapsulations, etc etc. I get that it dampens the harmonics of the machine and keeps chips and mice out, but as a hobby machine, in a non-production shop, owned by someone who trades machinery more often than some people change their bed sheets... I can't bring myself to do it. These feet weren't all that expensive, have a load capacity of 7800 lbs each, and fit perfectly under the machine. I cut some 2" diameter A50 washer plates to go on top of the leveling nuts and had some 3/8" thick A50 x 5" diameter scrap slugs that I put down on the floor, mainly because the back foot was landing on the joint in the floor and I wanted to bridge that.

The concrete floors are 6" thick, (drilled in a few spots and verified when deciding where to install my post lift) with top and bottom wire, so I am not worried about this weight on these floors at all, especially now with the 3" pads on the 5" plates. At an 8k lb machine, that's only 1T per corner so over a 5" circle... whopping 102 psi on 3 corners, and with the pad over the floor joint, lets call that 66% bearing area, so even then its 152 psi.

I'm content with my mess so far. Need to get some more wiring knocked out in this side of the building. Also, now that the roller cart is out of the way, I can get the legs of my engine crane down the sides and I can pull the head off and dig into the spindle bearings to make sure they're all good and repair the power down-feed drive gear.

The scale of this thing is just funny. The feet are 3" diameter and those bottom plates are a hair over 5" diameter by 3/8" thick. Burly.

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AlxJ64 said:
I LOATHE grout... For years as a Bridge and Highway Structures inspector, I've probably removed, with a chipping hammer mind you, YARDS of shitty terrible grout under the foundations of overhead signs, bridge bearing encapsulations, etc etc. I get that it dampens the harmonics of the machine and keeps chips and mice out, but as a hobby machine, in a non-production shop, owned by someone who trades machinery more often than some people change their bed sheets... I can't bring myself to do it.
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As the former highway contractor that was forced to install said grout, I agree. :laughing:
 
This old thing is about to run soon. Got the VFD installed and have been setting up all my parameters and wiring it up. Utilizing the original switch on the head for nostalgia, why the fuck not sake. With the VFD set on (3 wire mode) it just needs a common wire and two trigger pulses for Start and Stop. Set my ramp up and decel times, max freq, load protection, blah blah, too.

Once I get the motor running and know that the thing shifts and such I'll pull the head off and get to fixing the power down feed stuff finally. Getting there slowly. Went with a 10hp VFD. Same brand that I have had for 5 or 6 years on my Lathe so I am familiar with it.

Ohh, it will also be used to run a large all gear driven Barnes drill press that I have setup nearby. I am wiring control leads for each machine that are with the power cords so that I can plug in and unplug whatever machine I am using, select the machine profile in the VFD settings, and switch it on and off from the controls on the machine. So not pictured but wired is the 4 prong pigtail FROM the VFD as a cord. I also have a great big Pexto slip roll I intend to run this way, with this VFD too. Will make more sense once its wired up and I post a few more pics.

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You have to listen to my annoying voice but here is a clip of it running last night. Was much louder than I expected it to be but I think the clutch is out of adjustment and rattling. I still have to pull the head off and repair the power feed for that whole thing, so that's the next endeavor. But it appears to hydro shift like it should, the lubrication system flows pretty well, and the table feeds all seem to have all their teeth.

 
never gonna be as quiet as a belt drive spindle, sounds fairly normal to me, but microphones tend to butcher sound levels and such...
 
vetteboy79 said:
Hey AlxJ64 , I'm up at DozerDan82 s house tonight, and one of the guys here has a #2 horizontal he'd sell pretty quickly, 10 HP, I can find out more info in the morning. Kinda central PA area, it'd be off I-81.
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Off of 81 is my kinda language, anything east of there is a miserable trip through DC.
Feel free to send the details, and if I pass on it, we can share it here? Thanks man.
 
Got the push button configurations figured out. Works like a charm but had to battle the PRC to English translation in the manual to figure out what settings to change and which ones not to. The VFD offers a "3 wire mode" that replicates the lead inputs that a standard mag starter uses. The VFD terminal input assignments have to be selected in a specific order while programming otherwise it locks out selectable features upstream in the programing if you've already chosen something further downstream. Once I realized I had to go numerically through the selections I was able to access the program features. Also, contrary to the manual, the HDI input does not need to be set to 3 wire mode, but just coupled to whatever terminal input was selected as the "Sln" input trigger.. which I later determined to mean static line (ie open this lead to shut off the machine).

Also, I thought someone had mentioned in here to adjust the carrier frequency to quiet down the motor pitch whine... but at the risk of thermal side effects?
I looked into this more and in fact found that the carrier frequency was set default well below the recommended for the motor I was running, and I even bumped it up a touch more to see if it helped and it really really quieted it down. I am running at 9.5kHz and it seems happy. The rec setting for the motor size was 8kHz and the factory setting was down at 5 kHz.

I'll keep an eye on the temps for the first few times I run the thing and see what we get.
 
AlxJ64 said:
Also, I thought someone had mentioned in here to adjust the carrier frequency to quiet down the motor pitch whine... but at the risk of thermal side effects?
I looked into this more and in fact found that the carrier frequency was set default well below the recommended for the motor I was running, and I even bumped it up a touch more to see if it helped and it really really quieted it down. I am running at 9.5kHz and it seems happy. The rec setting for the motor size was 8kHz and the factory setting was down at 5 kHz.

I'll keep an eye on the temps for the first few times I run the thing and see what we get.
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That was me, although it might've been on FB instead of here. 🙂

It'll make more heat, but in your case probably not enough to matter. Keep in mind that a properly functioning 3-phase motor will absolutely be too hot to touch and still be well within the thermal ratings. When you see one that's got thermostats in the winding, those are usually set to warn at 140* C (284* F) and shut down at 160* C. Class F insulation is what most 3-phase motors will be built with, but even Class B in some cheaper/less robust ones is rated to 130* C.

A higher carrier frequency will create more heat than if the thing was just running off line power at rated speed, but those rated numbers are meant to be run at nameplate horsepower for 8-16 hours continuous every day. Chances are that motor is just gonna be bored with whatever you're able to throw at it and a little extra heat to make it quieter likely won't be an issue. Stuff like what ThePanzerFuhrer runs is where it'll matter more, but I doubt he cares about a little more electrical noise :laughing:

edit: exception being if you're running it slow...our guidelines were down to around 30 Hz (half speed) was fine, below that the cooling fan isn't doing as much so you're going to get more temperature rise and have to de-rate the output accordingly, moreso the slower it gets, so the effect from the carrier frequency is going to matter more.
 
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vetteboy79 said:
That was me, although it might've been on FB instead of here. 🙂

It'll make more heat, but in your case probably not enough to matter. Keep in mind that a properly functioning 3-phase motor will absolutely be too hot to touch and still be well within the thermal ratings. When you see one that's got thermostats in the winding, those are usually set to warn at 140* C (284* F) and shut down at 160* C. Class F insulation is what most 3-phase motors will be built with, but even Class B in some cheaper/less robust ones is rated to 130* C.

A higher carrier frequency will create more heat than if the thing was just running off line power at rated speed, but those rated numbers are meant to be run at nameplate horsepower for 8-16 hours continuous every day. Chances are that motor is just gonna be bored with whatever you're able to throw at it and a little extra heat to make it quieter likely won't be an issue. Stuff like what ThePanzerFuhrer runs is where it'll matter more, but I doubt he cares about a little more electrical noise :laughing:

edit: exception being if you're running it slow...our guidelines were down to around 30 Hz (half speed) was fine, below that the cooling fan isn't doing as much so you're going to get more temperature rise and have to de-rate the output accordingly, moreso the slower it gets, so the effect from the carrier frequency is going to matter more.
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Awesome man! This is good tech and is explained well; makes a lot of sense! Thank you! I agree that this thing won't be running under hard loads but for a few minutes a week if even that often. Its going to get used for things that my M head Bridgeport is too small for, which is a lot actually.


When I was at Lowes the other night, they were swapping around rolls of SOOW cord and I lucked out and convinced the guy to sell me the drop on the roll for discount so that he could go ahead and swap it out too. There was still 26' on the spool even though it didn't look like that much length but they gave me a good deal on it anyways. Went ahead and made a drop cord and put a plug end on the old drill press I picked up last year but hadn't yet tested. I got it fired up last night too and glad to say it runs fine! Going to relocate the start button and wire it up with some cable to control the VFD vs using the push button on the Cinci. I have the profiles saved in the VFD to easily swap between machines.

Full size can of Brake parts cleaner on the table for scale.

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be aware that you'll snap at least one bit off while they're breaking through the back side of whatever you're drilling

MT shank and a geared head doesn't lend itself to mistakes
 
[486] said:
be aware that you'll snap at least one bit off while they're breaking through the back side of whatever you're drilling

MT shank and a geared head doesn't lend itself to mistakes
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Ohh no doubt. The feeds and speeds on this thing are actually slow enough I could run my boring bar heads in the thing but not sure what kind of total precision it would yield.

I actually ordered some wheels and parts to get my drill grinder fired up. I have MT bits from 1/8" through 2-1/2" in 64ths, but with about 12 or so sizes missing at this point. MANY need a good regrind though.
 
AlxJ64 said:
Ohh no doubt. The feeds and speeds on this thing are actually slow enough I could run my boring bar heads in the thing but not sure what kind of total precision it would yield.

I actually ordered some wheels and parts to get my drill grinder fired up. I have MT bits from 1/8" through 2-1/2" in 64ths, but with about 12 or so sizes missing at this point. MANY need a good regrind though.
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Do you even have enough X/Y stability in the quill for a boring bar? Seems like a recipe for snapped carbide.
 
AlxJ64 said:
I actually ordered some wheels and parts to get my drill grinder fired up. I have MT bits from 1/8" through 2-1/2" in 64ths, but with about 12 or so sizes missing at this point. MANY need a good regrind though.
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starrett 22c or equivalent and a nicely dressed bench grinder wheel is really all you need to get your bits working great
 
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