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1940 Cincinnati No 2 High Speed Vertical Mill Partial Refurb and Repairs

AlxJ64 said:
A free one of these... a #5 at 18k lbs... sadly about the only thing I could have done with it would be put a tent over it and part it out and then turn the remaining frame into a jungle gym or something, be pretty cool slide ladder.


In the true nature and standard condition of vintage machines, the wiring insulation is nice and crunchy, so certainly going to fix that. Looking at the motor starter setup and on the fence as to a few different options. The machine came with a 7.5 hp RPC and I have a few other 3 phase machines that need to be wired yet, (tool grinder, big big Barnes gear drive drill press, and a 36" throat bandsaw).

For the Cinci...
Re-wire it with new machine wire but using the original starter and buttons until it catches on fire, or just doesn't work and I have to stop what I am doing and find a new starter. Word on the skreet is that the hold coil step down transformers in these Allen Bradley boxes will burn up shortly after they start to weep a little oil... well, this one is a sad cookie so it has me thinking about the next option.

Rip out the wires and install new wires, a new DOL starter with thermal protection in the original box and use the original buttons. But, new starters seem to be kind of pricey right now, at least for a decent GE or Square D that isn't chinesium. So if I went with Chinesium... I've seen some decent priced VFDs. so I could go with the next option,

Rip out all of the wires, gut the starter box entirely but leave in place for aesthetics, rewire motor and button new wires, mount a large VFD to the wall and control it with rewired original buttons that still go through the original starter box but control the VFD to the motor. My big Colchester lathe is wired the same way is this and it runs amazing. I've read that over rating a VFD application for single phase to 3 phase isn't really a thing IF the VFD is HP rated AS a single phase to 3 phase power source for the Output. Talked to the Movable Bridge electrical engineer on this and he agreed on this as well. So, I've found some VFDs, in the same brand as the one powering my lathe, for a reasonable price, actually not much more than the cost of a nice new mag starter switch with thermal. I could even still oversize it some by going with a 10 HP just for S&G.
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I replaced the OEM reduced voltage starter (late 1940’s?) in a mill like that with an Allen Bradley Powerflex 755 and it’s sweet. The old resistors and bimetal mechanism behind the starter plate was quite a contraption. I should have taken pictures before I forked it into the scrap bin.
Your assumption is correct, you need a 10hp vfd to run a 5hp motor with 1ph.
Best of luck on this project.
 
78bronco460 said:
Your assumption is correct, you need a 10hp vfd to run a 5hp motor with 1ph.
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Not true if you're using a VFD specifically made to go from single to 3 phase. I have 4 or 5 running and they're all rated for the motor size they'll run, no deratig.

It's somewhat true for some 3 phase VFDs that CAN be used for single phase input....but I think the derating is usually in the 30% range, not half.
 
bgaidan said:
Not true if you're using a VFD specifically made to go from single to 3 phase. I have 4 or 5 running and they're all rated for the motor size they'll run, no deratig.

It's somewhat true for some 3 phase VFDs that CAN be used for single phase input....but I think the derating is usually in the 30% range, not half.
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THANK YOU!!! I felt like I was taking crazy pills saying the same thing over and over! The output data plate on 2 VFDs I own are the horsepower rating for a single phase in 3 phase out, this whole "double the VFD" nonsense is from the early days where the single phase to 3 phase specific ones didn't really exist BUT people were using 3ph to 3ph ones to run 3ph stuff on 1ph. The technology has advanced but the mythology of it is always behind the times.
 
I misunderstood to OP to be using a normal 3ph vfd for this motor. The units that are 1ph in and 3ph out are built and rated with the larger rectifier (input) side to run the correct size inverter (output) side, instead of the oversized inverter you would have with a 3ph unit to get the right size rectifiers. The kw in = kw out (minus losses) for either type.
DC is better. :stirthepot:
 
PAToyota said:
I've seen some of those Hellermann tools over the years, but the sleeves are hard to come by - unless you have a source?
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I don't, not for the numbered ones anyway. Those would have come from our factory in Germany where we had our winding plant, and who knows where they would've got them from.

I remember we had a print catalog from some domestic supply company that had all the really specialized electric motor components, they would've had them...and damn you because now I can't remember the name of it and it's bothering me :homer:
 
the problem isn't so much the larger rectifier needed, it is the dead spot in the waveform
where 3ph has nowhere in the waveform that is all that far under line voltage, single is all over the place and even momentarily zero volts
so you need a massive bank of capacitors, or a bigass reactor coil (or both) to bridge over that horrible AC ripple in the rectified input current

ETA be careful that the one you buy is cool with only getting juice in two of the inputs, some of them will refuse to run unless they've got shit coming in on all three
 
[486] said:
the problem isn't so much the larger rectifier needed, it is the dead spot in the waveform
where 3ph has nowhere in the waveform that is all that far under line voltage, single is all over the place and even momentarily zero volts
so you need a massive bank of capacitors, or a bigass reactor coil (or both) to bridge over that horrible AC ripple in the rectified input current

ETA be careful that the one you buy is cool with only getting juice in two of the inputs, some of them will refuse to run unless they've got shit coming in on all three
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I meant rectifier as the section of the vfd, the part that charges the dc bus.
 
I don't read good sometimes, I see your meaning now. I only screw with little baby ones that are all unitized without even terminals on the outside to get at the DC
I hear that bigger ones got all the stages reasonably separate, to the point that you could just feed them 600VDC which is way neat.
 
[486] said:
I hear that bigger ones got all the stages reasonably separate, to the point that you could just feed them 600VDC which is way neat.
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Yep. We did a few retrofits on rollout tables of old steel mills where all the old roller table motors were DC. We were able to use the DC bus to power the VFDs, tying in after the rectifier bit. It was something weird like 150VDC but we made the VFDs (Danfoss) and also did our own motor windings, so it was pretty easy to do. And nice on the future spares business as no one else was gonna touch that one.
 
aczlan said:
Job Security :dustin:

Aaron Z
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I mean, that was part of the intent. We thrived on weird shit that most competitors wouldn't touch.

Then they closed our office, ended all our positions, and consolidated everything down to the facility in Charlotte. Where they know nothing about VFDs. You don't know what you don't know... :homer: little part of me feels bad for those mills, bigger part of me feels nothing for the management that thought they knew our product well enough to take it under their own wing, but that's a topic for another day.
 
Got a Lista cabinet at an auction yesterday, and came with a bunch of 50 taper tool holders, and this little end mill. Probably made more for your size machine.
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cj7jeep81 said:
Got a Lista cabinet at an auction yesterday, and came with a bunch of 50 taper tool holders, and this little end mill. Probably made more for your size machine.
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^ Now that is one heck of an end mill! I've got some 1.75" and 2" end mills I got from a weird yard sale one time that were just desk ornaments but I guess now I have a machine to hold them. I am drooling on those boring bar holders in the background though, thats what I need to be on the lookout for. I sorted through my box of tooling yesterday and most of the stuff in there is crashed badly and just junk. I'll pull all the hardware out of the ones that are getting scrapped and I'll turn inserts and replace inserts on a few others that are in there but overall the tooling that came with it wasn't really what the guy thought he had but there's enough in there that I can do some big work on occasion without having to scrounge. Now that I know to keep my eyes open for this stuff too, I see it pop up fairly often.

Bunch of crashed cutters.

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AlxJ64 said:
^ Now that is one heck of an end mill! I've got some 1.75" and 2" end mills I got from a weird yard sale one time that were just desk ornaments but I guess now I have a machine to hold them. I am drooling on those boring bar holders in the background though, thats what I need to be on the lookout for. I sorted through my box of tooling yesterday and most of the stuff in there is crashed badly and just junk. I'll pull all the hardware out of the ones that are getting scrapped and I'll turn inserts and replace inserts on a few others that are in there but overall the tooling that came with it wasn't really what the guy thought he had but there's enough in there that I can do some big work on occasion without having to scrounge. Now that I know to keep my eyes open for this stuff too, I see it pop up fairly often.

Bunch of crashed cutters.

20220123_111716.jpg


20220123_111728.jpg
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Yeah, I've scrapped some stuff in the past as I've had no use. The 50 taper stuff is too big for me to use, so if you're interested, I could make a deal on the holders. Its all 50nmtb. There are end mill holders, 2 boring heads, and a couple floating tap holders.
 
I'll take the other floating holder and boring head if he only wants one of each.
 
arse_sidewards said:
I'll take the other floating holder and boring head if he only wants one of each.
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Let me check the stuff out and see the condition. All I had time to do was unload, snap a few pics, and glance through the shelves. A lot of the stuff looks to be in good shape, but as you can tell from the one pic, they absolutely destroyed an endmill (maybe drill), so I doubt everything is undamaged.
 
cj7jeep81 said:
Yeah, I've scrapped some stuff in the past as I've had no use. The 50 taper stuff is too big for me to use, so if you're interested, I could make a deal on the holders. Its all 50nmtb. There are end mill holders, 2 boring heads, and a couple floating tap holders.
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Yes, very interested, send me a message with what all ya got and such. I appreciate ya thinking of this thread.

arse_sidewards said:
I'll take the other floating holder and boring head if he only wants one of each.
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Yea, I don't need to acquire too much surplus tooling for this thing as again, its not going to be used all that often I don't expect. If it'll help you out then yes, have at the doubles as I know you're getting a rather real machine shop setup and I am just a hobby guy.
 
Got around to taking pictures and getting a thread up, so here is a link. Wasn't sure on pricing, so feel free to shoot me an offer. There were more tool holders, but they were pretty rough so didn't include them.
irate4x4.com

IN - 50 taper nmtb tool holders

All sold . All prices are plus shipping, and will discount if you buy more than one. Multiple 50 taper end mill holders. One .625, 2 .375 (both missing set screws), one .75, two 1.25 (one with a broken end mill not pictured and way too tight set screws, one good), and one monster 2.5"...
irate4x4.com irate4x4.com
arse_sidewards said:
I'll take the other floating holder and boring head if he only wants one of each.
Click to expand...

AlxJ64 said:
Yes, very interested, send me a message with what all ya got and such. I appreciate ya thinking of this thread.


Yea, I don't need to acquire too much surplus tooling for this thing as again, its not going to be used all that often I don't expect. If it'll help you out then yes, have at the doubles as I know you're getting a rather real machine shop setup and I am just a hobby guy.
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Finally got back to working on this old thing. Had a bunch of other things going on ranging from having the 'vid to our two weeks without power, etc etc.
Had some good glue lined 4:1 heat shrink left over from wiring my Carryall so I put that to good use and cleaned up the motor leads and wired in a run of machine cord so that I can just shove this whole thing back inside the machine and then put some terminal blocks in the old switch box to wire up the VFD to. I'm planning on keeping the original start / stop button. Read the manual on the VFD I picked up and this will be easy as its just like my Colchester lathe wiring.

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arse_sidewards You have a picture of your No2 where the speed / feed control rod gear meets the speed box on the left side? I found a small crown gear that should work but I need to make the housing here. I've got some other hardware on the way to get the motor back installed. Its hot and heavy back working on this machine now as I have some projects coming down the pipe that I'll want it for.

20220614_164211.jpg
 
AlxJ64 said:
arse_sidewards You have a picture of your No2 where the speed / feed control rod gear meets the speed box on the left side? I found a small crown gear that should work but I need to make the housing here. I've got some other hardware on the way to get the motor back installed. Its hot and heavy back working on this machine now as I have some projects coming down the pipe that I'll want it for.
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You just need a picture of the same spot on my mill? Or you need me to take apart whatever is there and take a pic?
 
arse_sidewards said:
You just need a picture of the same spot on my mill? Or you need me to take apart whatever is there and take a pic?
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Just same spot. The internals of what I am making will be different than the original, I can tell already. Just wanting to sort of keep up appearances if plausible.
 
This is awesome! I have been wanting a bigger mill for quite some time. Keeping an eye on this thread.
 
wierd, doesn't look like enough room for a bevel gear under that cover...
 
[486] said:
wierd, doesn't look like enough room for a bevel gear under that cover...
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There's only a partial one under there... and the one I picked up, turns out, is the wrong size anyways. I thought I was being slick and spec'd one out on eBay that was "out of the package" but I think the seller had the wrong part number or mixed something up because the size does not fit the manufacturers listed dimensions for the part number.

arse_sidewards said:
Should I pop the cover and see what's underneath?
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Many thanks for those photos. The cover is certainly more than just a weird box. I think it supports a cool little partial gear with a split shaft drive deal.

Don't worry on removing it , as I don't think I am going to recreate that same design anyways. That cast cover is cool and all but not really needed for the use of my machine. I think that its like the shifter on the other side for the rapids... in that its a partial bevel gear. I drew up something crude to send over to my buddy to see if he can machine it on his Haas just to keep me moving. I STILL haven't gotten my electrician up here to wire this side of the building for my machines and have been running my big lathe off of an extension cord hooked to the VFD.
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