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Trans or steering cooler tech for 2020

I don't know that I'd ever go to the effort to set up a proper temp sender and gauge on my beaters but it would probably be a good idea to throw one of these temp strips on the reservoir to be able to ball park fluid temps https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/126/650
 
Wulf said:
I don't know that I'd ever go to the effort to set up a proper temp sender and gauge on my beaters but it would probably be a good idea to throw one of these temp strips on the reservoir to be able to ball park fluid temps https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/126/650
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I look at it from the standpoint, The truck its self might be a beater, but if I spend a significant amount of money on a decent steering system, why wouldn't I monitor it? Specially if I can get a gage and sender for like $80.
 
CDA 455 II said:
/
nOOB question:
What kind of workload does it take to really start heating up PS fluid beyond 'normal'?
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Going full lock or stalled on an obstacle will start burning up a lot of HP as the oil dumps at pressure. Add high rpm and the flow and HP go up and heat goes up.
Some reservoir and plumbing designs do not have enough cooling to operate without a dedicated cooler.
 
Toreadorranger said:
I look at it from the standpoint, The truck its self might be a beater, but if I spend a significant amount of money on a decent steering system, why wouldn't I monitor it? Specially if I can get a gage and sender for like $80.
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Fair point. After reflecting on this for a couple days it doesn't seem too extreme to add a bung to the factory resi to stick an oil temp sensor probe into.
 
Seems like the Amsoil fluid makes a big difference. With a new pump (already whining lol) and the Amsoil it didn't boil over today. Last time I ran this trail it was puking the conventional power steering fluid.

I have another reservoir which is double the stock size that I need to mount up and I should probably add a cooler as well. But I am pleased.
 
Wulf said:
Seems like the Amsoil fluid makes a big difference. With a new pump (already whining lol) and the Amsoil it didn't boil over today. Last time I ran this trail it was puking the conventional power steering fluid.

I have another reservoir which is double the stock size that I need to mount up and I should probably add a cooler as well. But I am pleased.
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I always ran tractor fluid in my trucks. My first one would boil the ATF with the front locker at low speeds.
 
Aisin said:
I always ran tractor fluid in my trucks. My first one would boil the ATF with the front locker at low speeds.
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Makes me curious about trying it in my Tacoma. I keep killing power steering pumps with the IFS and 35s even with a nice cooler like I posted earlier in the thread. I told myself I wasn't gonna wheel it while I collect parts for tons so I don't have to keep fixing IFS parts though :homer:
 
Wulf said:
Makes me curious about trying it in my Tacoma. I keep killing power steering pumps with the IFS and 35s even with a nice cooler like I posted earlier in the thread. I told myself I wasn't gonna wheel it while I collect parts for tons so I don't have to keep fixing IFS parts though :homer:
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Try it. I think it was $18 for a gallon at Napa. Drag racers run it in their autos.
 
Wulf said:
Is it ok for the outlet is the reservoir to be lower than the pumps inlet?

I have this res of about 2.5x the stock volume I would like to install approximately here on the inner fender

edit: survey says no


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Is that thing baffled? If not I wouldn’t bother.
 
HYDRODYNAMIC said:
Adding some engine radiator tech:
The stock 6.0 water pump should flow 20GPM at 2000RPM and 66GPM at 6000RPM
The radiator core at 16" x 30" x 2.375" should remove 196,000BTU/Hr. at 140ETD at 20GPM and 245,000 BTU/Hr. at 140ETD at 66GPM which is equivalent to 77-96HP. 140ETD means 220 degree fluid entering with 80 degree ambient air cooling the radiator.
Rule of thumb: About one third of the heat generated by the engine goes into the coolant/water mixture and must be dissipated by the radiator. That would mean the 96HP x 3 = 288HP, but radiators of this size are commonly used on 600HP KOH cars? At first I was at a loss of the industrial ratings vs what is working. Most industrial ratings are for max output, while rule of thumb for recreational/off-road use is based on average continuous use. A 600HP car at 50% continuous average output now appears to be reasonable or at least a closer match to the calculated industrial ratings. This is also further confirmed by the size of trophy truck radiators coming in at double the core size at 31" x 31" and cooling 900HP but at a higher continuous average output since the style of course and vehicle allows for a higher average speed.
The pressure drop across the radiator should be around 15 PSI at 66GPM which is very close to the cap pressure so I am wondering what pressure the LS pumps flow at and how close it gets to the cap pressure. I might do some flow testing to see what actual flow and pressure are.
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have you found anybody that is publishing their radiator BTU by flow rate numbers?

obviously "bigger is better" blah blah blah, but I've got a very narrow grill and restrained space and have been struggling to find a "what's big enough" while going between some options and thicker gets much more expensive. not trying to justify a $1k radiator if I don't need to :homer:

extremely optimistically 350 hp engine, small torque converter TH350 (high slip, lots of heat trans) and absurd power steering. but nobody I can find is very open with the information and the math has me stuck in the swamp
 
Provience said:
have you found anybody that is publishing their radiator BTU by flow rate numbers?

obviously "bigger is better" blah blah blah, but I've got a very narrow grill and restrained space and have been struggling to find a "what's big enough" while going between some options and thicker gets much more expensive. not trying to justify a $1k radiator if I don't need to :homer:

extremely optimistically 350 hp engine, small torque converter TH350 (high slip, lots of heat trans) and absurd power steering. but nobody I can find is very open with the information and the math has me stuck in the swamp
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Thermal Transfer Products has graphs on their MA series mobile coolers which have a similar core design to the heavy duty Triton and CBR cores. If you use the none fan models you can calculate the square inch area working and convert that to whatever size you need. Keep in mind the fans and shrouds that you will use as it can change the effective area.
 
HYDRODYNAMIC said:
Thermal Transfer Products has graphs on their MA series mobile coolers which have a similar core design to the heavy duty Triton and CBR cores. If you use the none fan models you can calculate the square inch area working and convert that to whatever size you need. Keep in mind the fans and shrouds that you will use as it can change the effective area.
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awesome, i'll look that up :smokin:
 
HYDRODYNAMIC said:
That is a good deal for a high flow steering cooler and Spal fan combo with a shroud.
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I wish they have smaller brushless fan for that application. I have one of their units with a smaller 5" fan and it's just so loud. I bet if it was brushless it would run 75% of the time at 20% and 15% of the time at 1/2 speed.
 
MA Series.pdf (thermaltransfer.com)

thermal transfer info :smokin:

heat rejection btu pg 1.png


correction factors.png


core only.png


with DC fan.png


being able to "right size" stuff, at least close, is neat.
 
Weasel said:
I wish they have smaller brushless fan for that application. I have one of their units with a smaller 5" fan and it's just so loud. I bet if it was brushless it would run 75% of the time at 20% and 15% of the time at 1/2 speed.
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The smaller the fan the higher the RPM and the higher the frequency that makes it sound louder.
My plan is to run a 10" brushless on the MA4 which is the smallest Spal does right now in brushless. Way overkill. It would be idling most of the time.
The other option is to run a 7.5" brushed with a small PWM module to slow it down and drop the frequency.
The upside to the brushless is the one sensor controls off and on and ramp where the brushed would need a PWM controller and a low temp switch since hydraulics run cooler than most temp switches for engine temps.
 
HYDRODYNAMIC said:
The DH series is huge for its capacity. The MA is so much more compact. You might not be saving much based on cooling per $. Some of their models change the ETD to make them look better so adjust the ETD even for both models when comparing.
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yeah, what they lack in price they also lack in design :laughing:

but for a 7hp 15 gpm ~20k BTU the DH was ~1/2 the price of the MA, though it would need to be mounted in front of the water radiator and use the engine fan, so lot's of compounding efficiency loss options as opposed to the standalone and thicker/more compact MA
 
as for power steering and transmission cooling, rather than running 1 gauge at the hot side output of the trans and then another at the cold outlet of the cooler, is there any compelling reason to not simply take the pan/reservoir temperature and be satisfied that it is below 180* ?
 
Typical applications size cooler for 1/3 of the input horsepower.
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This makes sense for road going vehicles, but how well does it hold for off-road? It seems that we would have far worse efficiency.
 
Treefrog said:
This makes sense for road going vehicles, but how well does it hold for off-road? It seems that we would have far worse efficiency.
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that's the interesting thing and maybe the road going is a part of the issue if 1/3 HP is for industrial full load continuous duty standards.

in general and from a BTU per gallon of fuel aspect, there is under 30% going to actually create horsepower and "roughly 1/3 of the remaining going to the cooling system" which would mean basically an equal amount of HP generated on the dyno should also be accounted for in the cooling system.

nobody is running anywhere near that :laughing: so 1/3 of the continuous HP is an easier number to package. unless you plan on running high load/throttle angle for a very long time, you won't need 1/3 of peak rated power.

that's where the hydrodynamic post above talking about 600hp U4 cars and 900hp TT's are running radiators that dissipate 1/3 of 50% of rated and 1/3 of 100% rated coolers based on their "average load"

does that "small for HP" add to the reason why those trucks might not sit well for long periods of time? probably, and also probably due to the significant loss of flow at idle vs at speed. maybe, but that is also very likely a factor of the coolant flow at low rpm. coolant flow having a much larger impact on BTU removed than air flow above a certain point. more coolant = more rejection, no such thing as too fast in a sense or from a strict cooling point of view.
 
HYDRODYNAMIC said:
The pressure drop across the radiator should be around 15 PSI at 66GPM which is very close to the cap pressure so I am wondering what pressure the LS pumps flow at and how close it gets to the cap pressure. I might do some flow testing to see what actual flow and pressure are.
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I’d like to say the pressure will be much higher than 15 psi at pump’s discharge and it seem like most radiator caps are on cool side tank (after the pressure drop across the radiator)

People who race with Cummins purposely crippling their water pumps by clipping 2 of 5 fins off. Racing with unmodified oe water pump generate enough pressure to blow freeze plugs out, leaking out of head gasket, and such.

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/for...7&postcount=15
LAmiller on competitiondiesel.com said:
They are interchangeable from one platform to the other. From the factory we have seen the 5.9 water pumps have steel impellers and the 6.7 have plastic impellers, The 6.7 water pump has a higher volume as it needs to support the EGR flow. On High RPM trucks with an OEM water pump we clip to fins off a 5.9 pump. Even with it clipped we have logged over 100psi water pressure in the block at 5500rpm.

Lavonhttp://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2521707&postcount=15
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http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2521707&postcount=15

1.jpg
2.jpg

5.jpg
 
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Provience said:
that's the interesting thing and maybe the road going is a part of the issue if 1/3 HP is for industrial full load continuous duty standards.

in general and from a BTU per gallon of fuel aspect, there is under 30% going to actually create horsepower and "roughly 1/3 of the remaining going to the cooling system" which would mean basically an equal amount of HP generated on the dyno should also be accounted for in the cooling system.

nobody is running anywhere near that :laughing: so 1/3 of the continuous HP is an easier number to package. unless you plan on running high load/throttle angle for a very long time, you won't need 1/3 of peak rated power.

that's where the hydrodynamic post above talking about 600hp U4 cars and 900hp TT's are running radiators that dissipate 1/3 of 50% of rated and 1/3 of 100% rated coolers based on their "average load"

does that "small for HP" add to the reason why those trucks might not sit well for long periods of time? probably, and also probably due to the significant loss of flow at idle vs at speed. maybe, but that is also very likely a factor of the coolant flow at low rpm. coolant flow having a much larger impact on BTU removed than air flow above a certain point. more coolant = more rejection, no such thing as too fast in a sense or from a strict cooling point of view.
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How well does high load/throttle angle compare to low speed? I would think that at the lower speed selecting for 1/2 continuous or more would be a better idea.

The low coolant flow at idle leads me to believe that an electric water pump/fan may net significant improvement over a mechanical setup. Also the benefit of being able to run the fan and pump with the engine off for a bit.
 
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