Trans or steering cooler tech for 2020

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Gotta link?


Edit
I looked for ya, PSC is pimping swepco and claiming it is not compatible with anything.(with no explanation of not compatible). I am not familiar with swepco,
PSC actually wants you to flush out all your old shit and switch using a flushing kit they are selling.

https://www.pscmotorsports.com/psc-flk729.html
"SWEPCO Lubricants are compatible with all mineral oils and most PAO lubricants, obtain the full benefits of SWEPCO’s High Performance additive chemistries by not leaving behind contaminates or deposits left behind from old, dirty lubricants.



Flushing the system with SWEPCO 729 Flushing Oil is the best way to remove all old lubricants and loose contaminants that might affect the service life or performance of SWEPCO Lubricants and PSC power steering components.


Because most synthetics are NOT compatible with SWEPCO Lubricants, flushing is highly recommended when switching from a FULL synthetic product to a SWEPCO Lubricant."

There are different types of synthetic bases. I can understand why they say just use the oil we recommend to avoid compatibility issues. If they are doing testing on pumps or orbitals then the parts are going to be contaminated or have similar compatible oils depending on what oil base you use.

SWEPCO 715 Power steering/Hydraulic Oil is a new generation high performance oil designed to assure efficient, smooth operation of power-assisted steering and hydraulic systems. It is engineered and blended precisely from the very finest high VI paraffinic base stocks available and the most advanced additive chemistry, including Lubium, a unique chemical additive developed by SWEPCO's R & D Lab for the exclusive use in certain SWEPCO lubricants.

Polyalphaolefins (PAOs) Maximum Operating Temperature: 270°F/132°C	High VI, high thermal oxidative stability, low volatility, good flow properties at low temperatures, nontoxic and compatible with mineral oils	Limited biodegradability, limited additive solubility, seal shrinkage risk
Diesters and Polyolesters Maximum Operating Temperature: 360°F/182°C	Nontoxic, biodegradable, high VI, good low-temperature properties, miscible with mineral oils	Low viscosities only, bad hydrolytic stability, limited seal and paint compatibility
Phosphate Esters Maximum Operating Temperature: 240°F/116°C	Fire resistant, biodegrades quickly, excellent wear resistance and scuffing protection	Low VI, limited seal compatibility, not miscible with mineral oils, moderate hydrolytic stability
Polyalkylene Glycols (PAGs) Maximum Operating Temperature: 300°F/149°C	Excellent lubricity, nontoxic, good thermal and oxidative stability, high VI	Additives marginally miscible, not miscible with mineral oils, limited seal and paint compatibility
Silicones Maximum Operating Temperature: 450°F/232°C	Highest VI, high chemical stability, excellent seal compatibility, very good thermal and oxidative stability	Worst mixed and boundary film lubrication properties, not miscible with mineral oils or additives

 

[crisbee1]

Again not a fan of the parafin waxy based fluid,
Any mineral oil can be hydrocracked and called synthetic. Mineral oil is by product of drilling so cheap.

Amsoil, Lucas syn, SUDT2, Mobil 626 are pao's. My preference unless there is solid reason to switch? I have been running this stuff in 2 psc systems, hydraulic assist ram on the Sami and a PSC full hydraulic system on the buggy in a previous life. PSC was pimping Royal Purple back then.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com...pao-lubricants

Chart with a key:rolleyes:

 

[TrailTamer]

I have been wanting to try add a liquid to liquid heat exchanger to my Jeep's power steering system (XJ with 4.0). I already have a heat exchanger from my truck's auto to manual swap (2nd gen 12v cummins).

Easiest way will be to plumb it in from heater core hoses but that means hot coolant go into the cooler. Cooled coolant from radiator outlet is what I want to go into the heat exchanger but it is under suction, and hot side is under pressure.

I haven't find a good logic way to plumb *cooled* coolant through the heat exchanger. Does anyone have a good 'rule of thumb' or link to a informative article on how to add a heat exchanger to a vehicle that never had one from factory?

Picture below is how the OEM heat exchanger is plumbed;

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I have been wanting to try add a liquid to liquid heat exchanger to my Jeep's power steering system (XJ with 4.0). I already have a heat exchanger from my truck's auto to manual swap (2nd gen 12v cummins).

Easiest way will be to plumb it in from heater core hoses but that means hot coolant go into the cooler. Cooled coolant from radiator outlet is what I want to go into the heat exchanger but it is under suction, and hot side is under pressure.

I haven't find a good logic way to plumb *cooled* coolant through the heat exchanger. Does anyone have a good 'rule of thumb' or link to a informative article on how to add a heat exchanger to a vehicle that never had one from factory?

Picture below is how the OEM heat exchanger is plumbed;

Use one of these: https://www.jegs.com/i/Gates/465/22401/10002/-1

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

I have been wanting to try add a liquid to liquid heat exchanger to my Jeep's power steering system (XJ with 4.0). I already have a heat exchanger from my truck's auto to manual swap (2nd gen 12v cummins).

Easiest way will be to plumb it in from heater core hoses but that means hot coolant go into the cooler. Cooled coolant from radiator outlet is what I want to go into the heat exchanger but it is under suction, and hot side is under pressure.

I haven't find a good logic way to plumb *cooled* coolant through the heat exchanger. Does anyone have a good 'rule of thumb' or link to a informative article on how to add a heat exchanger to a vehicle that never had one from factory?

Picture below is how the OEM heat exchanger is plumbed;

Taping into the cooling system sounds like adding more points for a leak and failure compared to having a separate power steering cooler. While possibly creating a higher operating temp than it would run with a dedicated cooler.

 

[TrailTamer]

Taping into the cooling system sounds like adding more points for a leak and failure compared to having a separate power steering cooler. While possibly creating a higher operating temp than it would run with a dedicated cooler.

might as well run no cooler with your logic thinking. 😄





liquid to liquid cooler, by itself, don't require air movement and usually much more compact than a liquid to air cooler and can put anywhere you want to put it. and obviously can take much more abuse before leaking.

I have my own reasons. I don't want to put more coolers in front of the radiator, just to feed the radiator some more hot air on top of a/c condenser if I can.

 

[Wulf]

Toyota pump with drilled out restrictor, factory reservoir, and TG 6" ram. I filled it with Amsoil Hydraulic oil this time. Steering effort is OK but not great and it pukes fluid out of the reservoir after the engine is shut off.

I spent about 30 minutes with the front on jackstands going lock to lock to bleed it and am wondering if still have air in the system. Do I just need a larger volume reservoir to give space for the expansion?

 

[crisbee1]

Needs an overflow catch can for warm oil, tygon tubing so you can see and a vent port in the res cap. You will need to do this even if you go to a bigger reservoir. works like a radiator over flow and should pull the oil back into the reservoir when it cools. tubing needs to go to the bottom of your catch can.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Toyota pump with drilled out restrictor, factory reservoir, and TG 6" ram. I filled it with Amsoil Hydraulic oil this time. Steering effort is OK but not great and it pukes fluid out of the reservoir after the engine is shut off.

I spent about 30 minutes with the front on jackstands going lock to lock to bleed it and am wondering if still have air in the system. Do I just need a larger volume reservoir to give space for the expansion?

I've never had any issues with air after about 5 mins. By design, they should work themselves out.

I'd guess to small of a Reservoir, the rod on a single ended ram displaces fluid. So if you steer the direction that the rod is inside (that's what she said!) fill it to the top then steer the opposite way, you can see how much fluid the rod is displacing.

I'm wondering if when you steer to the direction where the rod is out, that's its sucking air and causing foaming.

 

[Bebop]

I've been looking at these Tru Cool units from Spicer.
https://media.spicerparts.com/cfs/fi...store=original

I'm running the LPD4739 on my rig. I have yet to see trans temps above 170, even beating on it.

TH400 on a 4500lbs buggy.

It's cheap and I added some 3/8 - AN6 fittings and voila. Super happy with it.

My idea was to use a 6.0 F250 trans cooler in case the trucool unit didn't work good enough. The ford cooler is a well know performer in the super duty world and is cheap.




As for steering, I run a single pass heatsink from Derale. I wanted to run a dual pass, but seeing how they are built, I scratched that idea. The fluid bottoms out in the side cap then has to do a 180 turn to go back. Talk about a pressure spike and flow killer !



I integrated all my coolers in 1 area and am using only 2 fans for all 3 fluids, trans, steering and engine coolant.
So far so good, it's working great, but I'm not racing.

 

[giles45shop]

might as well run no cooler with your logic thinking. 😄





liquid to liquid cooler, by itself, don't require air movement and usually much more compact than a liquid to air cooler and can put anywhere you want to put it. and obviously can take much more abuse before leaking.

I have my own reasons. I don't want to put more coolers in front of the radiator, just to feed the radiator some more hot air on top of a/c condenser if I can.

You would probably be better off without a cooler than using the "cool" side of the radiator. Perhaps you have a super special radiator, but the outlet of most people's radiators is significantly hotter than air temps. You can use liquid/liquid coolers on the transmission, but the PS fluid should be running quite a bit cooler than that to prevent problems. There's a reason you don't see PS coolers plumbed into the radiator, but feel free to ind out on your own - PS pumps are cheap :)

If you want to avoid stacking another cooler in front of the radiator, maybe one of the integrated fan/cooler packages would work but you would still have to figure out where to place it.

 

[arse_sidewards]

You would probably be better off without a cooler than using the "cool" side of the radiator. Perhaps you have a super special radiator, but the outlet of most people's radiators is significantly hotter than air temps. You can use liquid/liquid coolers on the transmission, but the PS fluid should be running quite a bit cooler than that to prevent problems. There's a reason you don't see PS coolers plumbed into the radiator, but feel free to ind out on your own - PS pumps are cheap :)

If you want to avoid stacking another cooler in front of the radiator, maybe one of the integrated fan/cooler packages would work but you would still have to figure out where to place it.

PS fluid is an ATF half the time anyway.

I don't see an issue with it running at 150-200 degrees

 

[TrailTamer]

You would probably be better off without a cooler than using the "cool" side of the radiator. Perhaps you have a super special radiator, but the outlet of most people's radiators is significantly hotter than air temps. You can use liquid/liquid coolers on the transmission, but the PS fluid should be running quite a bit cooler than that to prevent problems. There's a reason you don't see PS coolers plumbed into the radiator, but feel free to ind out on your own - PS pumps are cheap :)

If you want to avoid stacking another cooler in front of the radiator, maybe one of the integrated fan/cooler packages would work but you would still have to figure out where to place it.

Do you have facts to prove your claims? Do you know thermodynamics?

Actually...
I'll do it for you.

Liquid to liquid cooler have about 2 to 10 times the Heat Transfer Coefficient of a liquid to air cooler.
https://www.engineersedge.com/thermo...sfer-table.htm

Also, the roller coaster temperature change isn't ideal. The liquid to liquid cooler from engine's coolant will make the oil temperature to get up to operating temperature and stabilized, between heavy load or idle.

Guess what, liquid to liquid factory cooler in the very first link of googling "power steering operating temperature"
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp...20degrees%20F.

 

[CDA 455 II]

nOOB question:
Isn't the upper radiator hose water hotter than the lower radiator hose water?

 

[arse_sidewards]

nOOB question:
Isn't the upper radiator hose water hotter than the lower radiator hose water?

Yes but it's still not nearly as hot as PS fluid, ATF or oil that's being worked hard.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Do you have facts to prove your claims? Do you know thermodynamics?

Actually...
I'll do it for you.

Liquid to liquid cooler have about 2 to 10 times the Heat Transfer Coefficient of a liquid to air cooler.
https://www.engineersedge.com/thermo...sfer-table.htm

Also, the roller coaster temperature change isn't ideal. The liquid to liquid cooler from engine's coolant will make the oil temperature to get up to operating temperature and stabilized, between heavy load or idle.

Guess what, liquid to liquid factory cooler in the very first link of googling "power steering operating temperature"
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp...20degrees%20F.

"Thats not how it works, that not how any of this works"
People much smarter than I have proven that non thermostatically controlled heat exchanges are not optimum for transmissions. The engine heat can raise the trans temp too high when both are under load and overwhelming the main radiator, this will occur with both controlled and non controlled heat exchangers. At the same time if the ambient temps are too low the trans will not be able to get up to temp, this can be controlled by a thermostat but not with a constant cool system.
A thermostatically controlled heat exchanger is needed. The easiest is to use a radiator - air to liquid and a fan with temp thermostat switch. The second is a liquid thermostat controlling flow of the liquid/liquid heat exchanger.
A power steering system can be very closely compared to a trans as far as the concept of cooling goes and ideal operating temps.

Keep in mind that there are many different types and sizes of liquid/liquid and liquid/air coolers. So many variables need to be set before a comparison of efficiency can be validly used to show one system is better than another.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

My best guess of ideal operating temp, not to be confused with max allowable temps:
4l80 is 140-175*F
High power hydraulic steering system 85-155*F

 

[TrailTamer]

HYDRODYNAMIC well said, too many variables to say one system is better than another. Liquid to air cooler in most cases is most economic & ease of installation.

 

[giles45shop]

Do you have facts to prove your claims? Do you know thermodynamics?

Actually...
I'll do it for you.

Liquid to liquid cooler have about 2 to 10 times the Heat Transfer Coefficient of a liquid to air cooler.
https://www.engineersedge.com/thermo...sfer-table.htm

Also, the roller coaster temperature change isn't ideal. The liquid to liquid cooler from engine's coolant will make the oil temperature to get up to operating temperature and stabilized, between heavy load or idle.

Guess what, liquid to liquid factory cooler in the very first link of googling "power steering operating temperature"
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp...20degrees%20F.

Glad to see you have Googling skills. No I don't have any "facts" to prove my claims other than looking at all of the PS coolers you see either in factory or offroad vehicles and comparing the number of them that are air to liquid to the number of liquid to liquid ones. I do understand thermodynamics and the improved efficiency of liquid to liquid. My point was simply that the engine coolant is already pretty warm and using that to "cool" the PS fluid isn't super efficient since there isn't a large delta T. The other thing to consider in that equation is the total heat load since you will now potentially be adding some additional heat load into the engine coolant.

Try it out and report back - will be interesting to see how it works

 

[Toreadorranger]

Is anyone running a temperature gage for their powersteering system? or just throwing a big cooler in and hoping for the best?

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Is anyone running a temperature gage for their powersteering system? or just throwing a big cooler in and hoping for the best?

If you have a temp switch on the cooling fan and listen to the fan cycle, that is another way to know how often and how quickly the temp is going up.

 

[ScottRS]

Is anyone running a temperature gage for their powersteering system? or just throwing a big cooler in and hoping for the best?

I've not run a gauge, but on my 4runner, I did put a temp switch in the hot side line from the box to the cooler. I'll probably do similar in my Jeep. I found on the 4runner that engine temp alone stayed so low crawling that the fan rarely came on, but the steering load would cook the PS in short order with no fan activity. So I guess that's simultaneously "big cooler and hope for the best" and "give it a decent shot". I am pondering in the Jeep, wiring temp sensors (I can just use GM coolant sensors) into trans and steering and using the ECU to automate the fan instead of simple switches like I've used in the past, which also opens up the option of synthetic gauges for those items. I kind of want to do the same with fuel temp as well, just being data-geekly about things.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Adding some engine radiator tech:
The stock 6.0 water pump should flow 20GPM at 1250RPM and 60GPM at 4000RPM and possibly 66 at 5000 RPM
The radiator core at 16" x 30" x 2.375" should remove 196,000BTU/Hr. at 140ETD at 20GPM and 245,000 BTU/Hr. at 140ETD at 66GPM which is equivalent to 77-96HP. 140ETD means 220 degree fluid entering with 80 degree ambient air cooling the radiator.
Rule of thumb: About one third of the heat generated by the engine goes into the coolant/water mixture and must be dissipated by the radiator. That would mean the 96HP x 3 = 288HP, but radiators of this size are commonly used on 600HP KOH cars? At first I was at a loss of the industrial ratings vs what is working. Most industrial ratings are for max output, while rule of thumb for recreational/off-road use is based on average continuous use. A 600HP car at 50% continuous average output now appears to be reasonable or at least a closer match to the calculated industrial ratings. This is also further confirmed by the size of trophy truck radiators coming in at double the core size at 31" x 31" and cooling 900HP but at a higher continuous average output since the style of course and vehicle allows for a higher average speed.
The pressure drop across the radiator should be around 5PSI at 40GPM. The block restriction pressure is 25PSI at 4000RPM but a lot of that pressure should be gone once out of the block and only flowing through the radiator.

 

[Toreadorranger]

If you have a temp switch on the cooling fan and listen to the fan cycle, that is another way to know how often and how quickly the temp is going up.

I was looking earlier, most are set for 180* on and 160-165* off. Seems high for power steering.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

I was looking earlier, most are set for 180* on and 160-165* off. Seems high for power steering.

Here is a 140*F on and 125*F off. They have higher ranges as well. Comes with AN fittings of your choice.
https://www.americanvolt.com/product...yABEgKY7vD_BwE

If you run a brushless Spal they have a 140*F low power on and ramps up to full power at 165*F. That's what I plan to run.

Ideal power steering should be 85*F-155*F, that is specified by Parker for general hydraulic systems. Racers that normally see 300* would be happy to see 180*. Ideally you don't want the fan to run all the time and let the cooler radiate some heat off before the fan kicks on. With the planned cooler and fan size, I don't think it will ever get to 165* full power. I expect it to run maybe 25% to 50% under heavy use and cycle on and off when just sitting on the trail waiting for the drunks to be winched out of the way.

 

[Wulf]

Needs an overflow catch can for warm oil, tygon tubing so you can see and a vent port in the res cap. You will need to do this even if you go to a bigger reservoir. works like a radiator over flow and should pull the oil back into the reservoir when it cools. tubing needs to go to the bottom of your catch can.

Do you have an example of setting something like that up from scratch? I remember some PSC reservoir setups that had an overflow tank but it seems like they don't sell anything like that now.

I've never had any issues with air after about 5 mins. By design, they should work themselves out.

I'd guess to small of a Reservoir, the rod on a single ended ram displaces fluid. So if you steer the direction that the rod is inside (that's what she said!) fill it to the top then steer the opposite way, you can see how much fluid the rod is displacing.

I'm wondering if when you steer to the direction where the rod is out, that's its sucking air and causing foaming.

I'll need to double check but I think it might be an 8" ram rather than the typical 6" used on a Toyota setup which could be part of the issue with this sized reservoir. Like you say it could be pulling air after pushing out all the fluid.

I have an All-star aluminum resi that looks like it's 2x the size of the factory one on the shelf, I'll have to see if I can come up with the fittings to make it work. Also considering chopping the factory one and extending it with some exhaust pipe.

 

[ScottRS]

Do you have an example of setting something like that up from scratch? I remember some PSC reservoir setups that had an overflow tank but it seems like they don't sell anything like that now.

I did a surge tank on my PS system in my buggy, sorry, it's apart now as I'm putting the pieces into my Jeep, but it was basically a normal reservoir, but with a sealed cap, and then a port drilled into the cap. The line from that port ran to the bottom of another vented reservoir. Fluid level was such that as long as there was "some" fluid in the vented reservoir with the system cold and any unbalanced cylinders run off of it at full extend, it would push fluid out into that surge tank in operation, and suck it back in as needed. Main reservoir was always full to the brim. Stupid angles, bounce, slosh, no problem, PS pump is drawing off of a dead-full reservoir. That with an actual radiator cap could be even better, I thought about doing that but never got around to trying. Might do that on the Jeep, since I have to build a new PS res anyway.

 

[crisbee1]

Do you have an example of setting something like that up from scratch? I remember some PSC reservoir setups that had an overflow tank but it seems like they don't sell anything like that now.

I am using a PSC 8* remote reservoir with an integral filter, the cap is sealed with a nipple fitting, clear hose to a catch can.


Cheapass Sami guy redneck solution, borderline hack....

Dorman Power Steering Reservoir Cap 82585

Clear tubing from homers cheap. empty quart oil bottle with a hole in the lid stuffed in fender.

 

[Wulf]

I am using a PSC 8* remote reservoir with an integral filter, the cap is sealed with a nipple fitting, clear hose to a catch can.


Cheapass Sami guy redneck solution, borderline hack....

Dorman Power Steering Reservoir Cap 82585


Clear tubing from homers cheap. empty quart oil bottle with a hole in the lid stuffed in fender.

Interesting, my google fu seems to be failing me on whether the caps are standard/interchangeable. I guess I ought to gamble $10 on one and see if it fits the yota res

 

[mobil1syn]

Wulf im assuming steel like a toyota one, just weld a hose barb fitting on it and plumb it to another one. i think the exhaust pipe trick will do it