Trans or steering cooler tech for 2020

[Wulf]

Is it ok for the outlet is the reservoir to be lower than the pumps inlet?

I have this res of about 2.5x the stock volume I would like to install approximately here on the inner fender

edit: survey says no

Is that thing baffled? If not I wouldn’t bother.

So, sort of? it has baffles on the inlet side to direct the flow...

I never got around to dealing with this... I was going to use some 3.5" exhaust tube to extend the stock resi but shops around me don't stock it and I'd have to order a 4 ft section online.

I ordered this dimensionally similar one to the All Star but has internal baffles. it is 2.x times the stock reservoir volume.

 

[Chevy_man]

Neat idea, but that kinda fucks you for mounting it anyway but vertical.

I put the biggest tube and fin cooler napa had on the 4runner. About 10x16. If that doesn't cool better than the in radiator type I'll be pissed.

I still plan to add a heat sink type for snow.

It won't.

The way to do it is run into the radiator, out to the external, then back to the trans.

You need the fluid to fluid to dump heat efficiently, and the extra air cooling to help it out.


For the snow, it may be something like this that would work great...

MTNTK Tunnel Cooler

LIMITED STOCK! Doubles your cooling surface area and coolant capacity, very simple to install and requires no cutting or welding to your original tunnel cooler.

www.mtntkperformance.com

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Tested some Trans / Oil coolers.

Edit: to interpret the data look at the Delta# this is how much the fluid cooled in °F per pass.

Deralle 9000 21 row

Derale Cooling Products 13615 Derale 9000 Series Fin and Plate Transmission Coolers | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Derale 9000 Series Fin and Plate Transmission Coolers with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Fluid Coolers at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

Amazon Deralle Knock Off
19 Row AN10 Stacked Plate Oil Cooler

Derale Cooling Products 13403 Derale Stacked Plate Fluid Coolers | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Derale Stacked Plate Fluid Coolers with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Fluid Coolers at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

Thermal Transfer MA4

Data:
78 F Ambient air for all tests
I used tap water for testing not oil

MA4
VA14-AP7/C-34A 12V 7.5" Spal Brushed
4.5 GPM
138 F IN
134 F OUT
Delta 4


MA4
VA109-ABL321P/N-109A/SH 12V 10" Spal Brushless
4.5 GPM
144 F IN
138 F OUT
Delta 6
Equates to 12,000 BTU/hr with 60° ETD
Manufactures testing shows it should be around 15,000 BTU/hr with 100° ETD with oil

AMAZON DERALLE 19 Row Knock Off
VA109-ABL321P/N-109A/SH 12V 10" Spal Brushless
3.18 GPM
151 F IN
150 F OUT
Delta 1

DERALLE 9000 21 Row 13615
VA109-ABL321P/N-109A/SH 12V 10" Spal Brushless
3.65 GPM
141 F IN
131 F OUT
Delta 10
Equates to 15,000 BTU/hr with 63° ETD
Manufactures testing shows it should be around 15,000 BTU/hr with 100° ETD with oil

DUAL Stack / 2 Cores thickness DERALLE 9000 21 Row 13615
VA109-ABL321P/N-109A/SH 12V 10" Spal Brushless
3.65 GPM
146 F IN First core to cold air
139 F OUT First core to cold air
Delta 7
Equates to 10,500 BTU/hr with 68° ETD
The second core is going to see less Delta as it will see hotter air from the first core. The first core to cool air dropped Delta 3 from free flowing to restriction of the fan.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Dust Buggy

150 C/300 F is runaway temp for silicon devices. But the heat is trying to go out of them, so ambient must be less than 150. Beyond that they start to conduct and melt themselves.

irate4x4.com

Installed the dual stack steering and transmission cooler with brushless fan.

 

[Weasel]

Tested some Trans / Oil coolers.

Data:
78 F Ambient air for all tests
I used tap water for testing not oil

Where did you get the flow rate from? Seems like it's too high for the size of the cooler or for a transmission.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Where did you get the flow rate from? Seems like it's too high for the size of the cooler or for a transmission.

Water faucet with probably 75’-100’ of 1/2” copper pipe from instant hot water heater to city pressure supply line.
To the cooler with a 4’ of 1/2” hose. Measured time for one GPM out of the cooler to atmospheric pressure. Then multiplied time for 1 minute = GPM

 

[Chevy_man]

Where did you get the flow rate from? Seems like it's too high for the size of the cooler or for a transmission.

Not a big deal. What is important is the temp delta. Slower flow will allow more time for heat transfer. He did show that 1 cooler works better than the other.

According to Sonnax, looks like a lot of transmissions are in the .5 to 2.5 gpm rate from idle to tc lockup at high rpm. So he's not far off.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Slower flow will allow more time for heat transfer.

While this is true for delta change, the faster the oil is moving through the cooler the more work the cooler does. More flow is more cooling in a recirculating system. It’s a proven scientific equation. Where people go wrong is thinking engine coolant needs to slow down to cool an engine properly. What the slowing down does is reduce cavitation and entrapped air and increase water to metal contact. If a cooling system is designed for and can handle higher flow rates, it will cool faster. You cannot over flow a small cooler and expect it to not have other problems. The equation is always true but other factors are changing the variables that people overlook.

 

[Weasel]

Not a big deal. What is important is the temp delta. Slower flow will allow more time for heat transfer. He did show that 1 cooler works better than the other.

According to Sonnax, looks like a lot of transmissions are in the .5 to 2.5 gpm rate from idle to tc lockup at high rpm. So he's not far off.

That's what I was getting at. If the flow rate had any effect on the delta. I have no idea what a trans pump will flow and was looking for some data there as well.

 

[snivilous]

I'll just throw this in here for my planned solution. I got the little inline finned cooler with my full hydro kit from Howe also and didn't think it'd cut it. I was planning a cooling loop for my supercharger intercooler, so I welded a jacket around my steering reservoir which is then plumbed into my intercooler. This also helps since I don't have a lot of room up front for a dedicated cooler and didn't want to run hydraulic lines to the rear where my radiator is.

I just got this plumbed in the other day after having built it two years ago, so no idea how well it will work but was cheap to try. There is a plate between the two fittings so coolant is forced to flow around the circumference. I have a 10x13x2 heat exchanger mounted in front of the radiator and then a coolant tank to give some additional capacity.

 

[Chevy_man]

While this is true for delta change, the faster the oil is moving through the cooler the work the cooler does. More flow is more cooling in a recirculating system.

Wouldn't the btus stay relatively constant? Guess you need to get the test rig out again

 

[Weasel]

from the little I recall of fluids I don't think the heat transfer is linear or constant. But it could certainly not vary enough to have any significant result.

 

[RadialDynamics]

Sharing my post here from the French Tickler build thread for future reference:

General steering temps, I like to see 120F to 180F as a normal and reasonable range. This puts most of the common fluids in a good viscosity range for use from low to high RPM. Industrial hydraulic temps are typically on the lower end to maintain higher viscosity, less internal leakage, and therefore better volumetric efficiency but industrial pumps don't see the operational speed range that a performance steering pump will experience.

Too cold (I would consider less than 80F), and the higher fluid viscosity will lead to more cavitation at high RPM and quicker pump wear. Now as for upper limits, the maximum peak that any of my teams hit is in the 210 to 215 range and that's with RDT or TT (cast iron/flow regulated) pumps running wide open for sustained periods in a high end Ultra4 or Trophy Truck. In a race like KOH, the average temp is 180 to 200 except for the occasional peaks. With a non-regulated billet TT pump in an identical system, steering temps peaking in the high 200's are common and I attribute that to a combination of increased cavitation and frictional losses throughout the hydraulic circuit.

A good fluid will last a race no problem although these teams are performing a lot more preventative maintenance, getting pumps serviced and flushing fluid on a regular basis, so being in the low 200's isn't of much concern. For your average weekend wheeler, I like to stick around 180F as a max although an occasional rise to 200 is still not overly concerning. For reference, Maxima Synthetic PSF has become my fluid of choice after seeing it work superior to other fluids in cold winter climates and in the 200+ degree racing applications.

On a flow-regulated TT pump like @bepop is using, even with copious amounts of throttle, I would have no concern running one or two of my finned tube "heat sink" style coolers wherever there is room to fit them in as I have podium placing 4400 teams doing this exactly. If someone can easily fit a higher efficiency cooler with a fan on it and wants to go that route, I will never stop them but I would say that it is not worth stressing over if plumbing and packaging will be that difficult compared to fitting two passive, and very robust, heat sink style coolers on the front of the car.

 

[AKnate]

I just got all my full hydro parts from Howe. They only make two sizes of heat sink coolers. They said the smaller of the two would be fine for me, but I went with the larger one just for the little extra capacity and piece of mind. One other thing they mentioned, was to make the lines to the cooler as long as possible (without being retarded). That will also give more capacity and the lines do help cool the fluid a bit.
I'm mounting it down low in front of the grill so it will at least get some air flow when the Jeep isn't moving very fast.


The 6l80/90's don't like it when the fluid gets really hot. It's a clutch to clutch design rather then having bands in it.

I have a 6l90 with a 2800rpm stall converter, so the possibility of hot fluid is there. I went with a Setrab stacked plate cooler that could be a bit overkill, but I also added a remote fluid thermostat from Improved Racing inline with the cooler. So hopefully the trans fluid will always run in the 170* range. Cooler is in front of the radiator so it will always have air flow.

I have one of those on a firewood processor. It sorta works, but always flows so often won't get to temp.

 

[TimJus]

you should fix the mounting. those are compression style isolators not for hanging stuff.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

you should fix the mounting. those are compression style isolators not for hanging stuff.

The isolators are shear rated for 40LBS each and compression rated for 150LBS
40x4=160LBS for maybe 10LBS of load. The mounting plate will bend and deform well before the isolators rip apart.

 

[TimJus]

The isolators are shear rated for 40LBS each and compression rated for 150LBS
40x4=160LBS for maybe 10LBS of load. The mounting plate will bend and deform well before the isolators rip apart.

shear is sideways. why not mount them right way

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

shear is sideways. why not mount them right way

Maybe they are mounted the right way.
Max G force loading might occur from a barrel roll and or landing on the side or upside down creating a compression or shear load. If it lands on any of the tires the suspension will lower the force.
Shearing and tension tearing are nearly the same with a rubber column like this. The tension rating might actually be higher because metal plates are equally loading the rubber vs a shear where the plates are ripping at the edge of the rubber creating a point load.

 

[gt1guy]

I have one of those on a firewood processor. It sorta works, but always flows so often won't get to temp.

A remote mount oil thermostat?

I believe the Improved Racing ones I have say they always bypass 5% flow through the cooler at all times.

 

[AKnate]

Yes from Improvised Racing.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

The improved racing thermostat is more of a bypass than valve. It relies on restriction of the cooler for the oil to flow the path of least resistance through the bypass. I have a hard time believing the 90% bypass number when they don’t know how free flowing the cooling system might be.
It’s still a good part to use, but I think the 10% or 90% rating, depending on how you look at it was a designed test and outcome with a more restrictive cooling system.
If you use one you might want to restrict the cooling system to get a higher bypass through the valve.
Remote mounted cooler with dedicated fan with off on electrical control is going to be the most accurate temp control.

 

[gt1guy]

The improved racing thermostat is more of a bypass than valve. It relies on restriction of the cooler for the oil to flow the path of least resistance through the bypass. I have a hard time believing the 90% bypass number when they don’t know how free flowing the cooling system might be.
It’s still a good part to use, but I think the 10% or 90% rating, depending on how you look at it was a designed test and outcome with a more restrictive cooling system.
If you use one you might want to restrict the cooling system to get a higher bypass through the valve.
Remote mounted cooler with dedicated fan with off on electrical control is going to be the most accurate temp control.

You're right on the bypass %. Cold fluid gets 90% bypassing the cooler is the way IR describes it.

How would one determine whether the cooling system is restrictive or not?

I have a Setrab # 56-10751-01 cooler for the trans and a #50-650-7612 cooler for the engine oil. Both are running through the Improved thermostats. Looking at the Setrab site, all I can find is what looks like a delta P given for the coolers. I assume that's the pressure drop through the cooler? And I assume again that those numbers would inform me of how restrictive the cooler is?

If that's the case, my trans cooler has a Delta P of 0.83psi, and the engine oil cooler has a Delta P of 1.1/1.8psi.

Sad part is I don't know if that is good or bad. I'm in way over my head here. Could you possibly shed some light on this?


Both coolers are mounted in front of the radiator so they will only get air flow when moving or the rad fans are pulling air through them. I don't have room to mount them elsewhere where they could have their own fans.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

You're right on the bypass %. Cold fluid gets 90% bypassing the cooler is the way IR describes it.

How would one determine whether the cooling system is restrictive or not?

I have a Setrab # 56-10751-01 cooler for the trans and a #50-650-7612 cooler for the engine oil. Both are running through the Improved thermostats. Looking at the Setrab site, all I can find is what looks like a delta P given for the coolers. I assume that's the pressure drop through the cooler? And I assume again that those numbers would inform me of how restrictive the cooler is?

If that's the case, my trans cooler has a Delta P of 0.83psi, and the engine oil cooler has a Delta P of 1.1/1.8psi.

Sad part is I don't know if that is good or bad. I'm in way over my head here. Could you possibly shed some light on this?


Both coolers are mounted in front of the radiator so they will only get air flow when moving or the rad fans are pulling air through them. I don't have room to mount them elsewhere where they could have their own fans.

By your numbers the coolers are low restriction. It doesn’t take much psi to flow through them. The closer the restriction of the bypass and cooler the more equal the flows will be through both.
I don’t think calculating is going to be accurate.
If the thermostat is cold and bypass is open and the cooler is warming up about the same temp as the rest of the system, you need more restriction in the cooler to slow down flow.
You can increase restriction by using smaller fittings or lines. Raise until the cooler is colder and system is hot and balance not over pressurizing the filter or oil pump with overkill restriction.

 

[Skinny]

I run a complete external cooler on my 4L80 as it is a fresh rebuild. It's a NAPA which is I believe a rebranded Hayden. It has a thermostat included. I run an inline fan switch with 3 little fans mounted on it under the service box on my CUCV.

It gets the trans up to 194 degrees and holds it there. If I'm putting a load on it my fans will come on at 200. The temp never goes above 210. That temp range is pretty optimal for a 4L80.

I think on a something that is road driven a thermostat is important as a stand alone can run too cold or take a very long time for the temps to actually rise. May be different in a dedicated off road rig or something in a different climate.

I would safely assume that if you are running something that has 5 or more gears that shifts clutch to clutch your trans temp is even more critical and you probably want to add more heat transfer on the trans cooler outlet but retain the factory system which will do a better job of maintaining an even temp.

If you are an OBDII truck the trans will probably have a temp sensor already in it. You can buy a cheapo scan gauge and program it to flag the temp if it gets above a set point. No need for any additional sensors/plumbing.

Never ran anything on my power steering aside from a cheap parts store trans cooler. So no opinion there.