Shopping for a concealable Pistol

[Yotota]

Shoot effectively. What does that even mean ? They were never designed or intended to be range toys for the weekend blast boys, or engage mythical enemies in 15 shot shoot outs at 25 yards. Or be the subject of Youtube wonder freak baitclick video comparisons. They were designed to be easy and unobtrusive to carry. To be safe to carry, and to go bang when the trigger was pulled. (EDIT: they were not really made to be "effective" in some aspects of shooting.) I know how one would feel in direct hands on comparison to a Glock, SIg or a HK. Junk, OK. Ask Trevon Martin. Anyways they are gone. The Ruger is the same GD weapon.

My personal problem with CCW is me. I have never been comfortable with shit in my pockets or belted or strapped on to me. A weapon is useless if its left at home. I can't see carrying a 24oz (loaded) metal pistol Just no way. Subject for another thread I guess. The lightweight version of the Ruger LCP is not available in CA, only the 18oz one. My Bersa weighs that.

I won't carry a gun until it's had at least 200 flawless rounds through it. Every Kel Tec I've owned and interacted with either needed a full "fluff & buff" as people call it AKA a full teardown and polishing just to clean up the shit manufacturing, or excessive break-in time and to actually run smoothly after many malfunctions. And then the rest of those rounds are flat out unpleasant.

Then there's the whole, you know, actual defensive shooting part. Which requires more [unpleasant] rounds through the gun and repeated cycles to even begin to get proficient with it. And still, getting a shooter with a sub-sub-compact pistol to that point rarely works out well. Follow up shots are slower with the increased muzzle flip.

There's the physics of Browning style action that still requires either slide mass or spring tension to function... Less slide mass requires more recoil spring to offset the recoil of a caliber that actually does something. And drawing/presenting a tiny gun is awkward, more so in pocket carry.
One little mistake to foul your grip and draw, and you've limp-wristed the first shot even with the best Ayoob Crush Grip.

Pocket carry sucks. If you need a gun, carry a gun that actually does the job. I don't want a gun to disappear... I want to know it's there.

Long story short, very few shooters will ever be able to get to the point where they can effectively carry a tiny .380 or 9mm, draw from concealment, and consistently put 3 or 4 rounds into a torso at 7yd, in enough time to actually stop a threat. The rate of success increases dramatically by stepping up to something slightly larger with a little more mass.

 

[Yotota]

I feel the same. I've experimented with various pistols but this is the one I've carried the last 16 years. S&W 637. Very light weight. I bobbed the hammer. Carried in a cheap pocket holster.

In before Fudd gun.

Wheelguns for the win, and nice job on the hammer. Looks sweet.

My 642 has been my favorite carry gun after I "downgraded" from various tiny 380s and 9s. I couldn't train my way past the faults of those tiny guns and the 642 resolved all the issues. Not to mention that the J Frame has probably dropped more dudes than any other carry gun in history...

 

[Splib]

I won't carry a gun until it's had at least 200 flawless rounds through it. Every Kel Tec I've owned and interacted with either needed a full "fluff & buff" as people call it AKA a full teardown and polishing just to clean up the shit manufacturing, or excessive break-in time and to actually run smoothly after many malfunctions. And then the rest of those rounds are flat out unpleasant.

Then there's the whole, you know, actual defensive shooting part. Which requires more [unpleasant] rounds through the gun and repeated cycles to even begin to get proficient with it. And still, getting a shooter with a sub-sub-compact pistol to that point rarely works out well. Follow up shots are slower with the increased muzzle flip.

There's the physics of Browning style action that still requires either slide mass or spring tension to function... Less slide mass requires more recoil spring to offset the recoil of a caliber that actually does something. And drawing/presenting a tiny gun is awkward, more so in pocket carry.
One little mistake to foul your grip and draw, and you've limp-wristed the first shot even with the best Ayoob Crush Grip.

Pocket carry sucks. If you need a gun, carry a gun that actually does the job. I don't want a gun to disappear... I want to know it's there.

Long story short, very few shooters will ever be able to get to the point where they can effectively carry a tiny .380 or 9mm, draw from concealment, and consistently put 3 or 4 rounds into a torso at 7yd, in enough time to actually stop a threat. The rate of success increases dramatically by stepping up to something slightly larger with a little more mass.

Thanks for your input. It all makes sense and sounds real. I should have been more clear, less lazy, and said OWB holster. Pocket gun, small nylon Faubus holster. The only thing I would say is that in my little world, my scenario, it should only take a single well placed hollow point shot. Not the Houston Burrito killer I hear limp wrist all the time . . . . . I have rather slender bone mass body type, I have skinny wrists even after pounding pulling thousands of nails. I built an entire wood house this summer for Chriz sakes, hauled every board, beam and sheet, a decade of white water knuckle kayaking etc. I dont have scary wrists or muscle mass fore arms. But I have never, not a single time had a "limp wrist" fail in any semi auto pistol. Maybe just stupid lucky. Maybe its just the simple reliable SA/DA hammer fired semi autos. I have never had to pull a weapon, fight for my life or physically defend my family from harm. Pretty sure I can kill a clown kicking in our door a a range of 4 feet. I do want and cherish the right to do so if I have to. I wont be carrying a clunky boat anchor when I do. That one is loaded with 15 and is within reach at the house.

I did handle a KelTec when they were still available in CA It must have been about 1998 or 99,. It did feel cheap, springy, boing boing trigger with gruesome pull effort and CLAK dry fire noise. I handed it back to the counter and looked elsewhere. Eventually bought a Chyna Norinco Tokarev clone in 9mm for $119.00 which fit me and I could shoot exceptionally well. I wish I had never sold it.

Point of my BS is that I don't envision getting "proficient " or high placement hit skill with a 3-inch barrel. I realistically expect the recoil from a 9x19 in a 13 oz gun to be unpleasant. I can easily qualify for the CCW course range fire with my Bersa (not a Browning type action) . 7 and 15 yards, 80% placement in the 8/9/X ring. How long did it take get you to over the obtrusive carry feel ? I gather now you probably like it now and it's reassuring rather than a negative

 

[Yotota]

Thanks for your input. It all makes sense and sounds real. I should have been more clear, less lazy, and said OWB holster. Pocket gun, small nylon Faubus holster. The only thing I would say is that in my little world, my scenario, it should only take a single well placed hollow point shot. Not the Houston Burrito killer I hear limp wrist all the time . . . . . I have rather slender bone mass body type, I have skinny wrists even after pounding pulling thousands of nails. I built an entire wood house this summer for Chriz sakes, hauled every board, beam and sheet, a decade of white water knuckle kayaking etc. I dont have scary wrists or muscle mass fore arms. But I have never, not a single time had a "limp wrist" fail in any semi auto pistol. Maybe just stupid lucky. Maybe its just the simple reliable SA/DA hammer fired semi autos. I have never had to pull a weapon, fight for my life or physically defend my family from harm. Pretty sure I can kill a clown kicking in our door a a range of 4 feet. I do want and cherish the right to do so if I have to. I wont be carrying a clunky boat anchor when I do. That one is loaded with 15 and is within reach at the house.

I did handle a KelTec when they were still available in CA It must have been about 1998 or 99,. It did feel cheap, springy, boing boing trigger with gruesome pull effort and CLAK dry fire noise. I handed it back to the counter and looked elsewhere. Eventually bought a Chyna Norinco Tokarev clone in 9mm for $119.00 which fit me and I could shoot exceptionally well. I wish I had never sold it.

Point of my BS is that I don't envision getting "proficient " or high placement hit skill with a 3-inch barrel. I realistically expect the recoil from a 9x19 in a 13 oz gun to be unpleasant. I can easily qualify for the CCW course range fire with my Bersa (not a Browning type action) . 7 and 15 yards, 80% placement in the 8/9/X ring. How long did it take get you to over the obtrusive carry feel ? I gather now you probably like it now and it's reassuring rather than a negative

The whole limp writing thing is often described as a weak grip, which is rarely the case for any man or any woman who isn't dainty. But it's just as likely to occur with a fouled grip during a stressful draw. Or even an ergonomically poor grip on a tiny gun. I'm not any kind of high speed competition bro, or any kind of expert by any means. I occasionally play with timers to see how I'm actually doing. My experience has been that during draw practice with tiny micro/sub-sub compact guns, my grip on the pistol sucked at least 50% of the time. Even with a good initial grip I would have to adjust or reposition a bit after each shot.

Add in weapon retention, drawing from the ground, shooting from under layers of clothing either through a pocket or with a fouled draw, and more... The potential is higher for issues with tiny semiautos.

I carry my J Frame in a Phlster City Special holster at 12:30. A good AIWB holster is key. I trust the hard holster and DA trigger to prevent shooting myself in the nuts or femoral, as opposed to something like a Glock in a leather/Kydex hybrid holster. There is never really any discomfort. It will need an occasional adjustment getting in and out of the truck but that's it. Feeling the gun there keeps it on my mind so I don't do something like reach for a top top shelf thing at the store without keeping the gun covered, or have a family member hug me right on the gun, or roughhouse with my kiddo without taking it off, or show disrespect to someone random and accidentally start something l don't want to finish (I try to avoid that in general to be a good person, but even more so with a gun on me).

I absolutely agree that having a gun on you is better than having a gun at home. But that mantra never gets the disclaimers that it deserves: the gun on you needs to be able to stop a threat, and you need to be capable of using it to stop a threat before the threat does what he is planning to do to you or your family. Anything less is a gamble and many people end up with a false sense of security in that situation.

 

[Yotota]

Something to add: a good rigid carry belt, along with a good AIWB hard holster, will support any 15-20oz gun easily. It won't feel like a brick.

But like I've said before... This is coming from me and all the trainers I've learned from who aren't fat. If someone has a gut, the ergonomics are fucked for any IWB carry, especially AIWB. This is as good a reason as any to lose the gut.

 

[Splib]

J frame. AKA Model 60. ?? Neighbor has one. It is a consideration, and I am certain with no doubt I could shoot that way more effectively than any Semi, or 45 1911 or anything. When you put it to hand it says " Yeah, yep, perfect". I have inherited the next model up, I think. It is simply labeled 357 Highway Patrolman. I can easily keep a cylinder on a paper plate at 25 yards. But it's too big and heavy to carry around. When I can I will get a look at that CSX and Kimber Micro.

 

[Yotota]

J frame. AKA Model 60. ?? Neighbor has one. It is a consideration, and I am certain with no doubt I could shoot that way more effectively than any Semi, or 45 1911 or anything. When you put it to hand it says " Yeah, yep, perfect". I have inherited the next model up, I think. It is simply labeled 357 Highway Patrolman. I can easily keep a cylinder on a paper plate at 25 yards. But it's too big and heavy to carry around. When I can I will get a look at that CSX and Kimber Micro.

Mine is a 642 - stainless, internal hammer, Airweight. Apex spring kit, sight paint, and VZ full wrap grips. That's about it. Oh and I shopped around hard to find one without the retarded frame lock, but that's easy to delete if you want to.

The Ruger LCR is also a good option and has a better trigger out of the box, but the ergos don't work for my long fingers.

 

[Flatbed]

Had a 642 Air weight . Christ I hated that gun. Fuck the trigger on that thing. Wife could hardly pull it. One of only two guns in my life I sold. Traded it in for a Colt Cobra for her. Now That is a sweet ass pistol.

 

[Steve300xcw]

Had a 642 Air weight . Christ I hated that gun. Fuck the trigger on that thing. Wife could hardly pull it. One of only two guns in my life I sold. Traded it in for a Colt Cobra for her. Now That is a sweet ass pistol.

A lil stone work,and an apex spring kit will make them a totally different gun

 

[WaterH]

the gun on you needs to be able to stop a threat, and you need to be capable of using it to stop a threat before the threat does what he is planning to do to you or your family.

I like this idea, but it’s not really true. If you pull a gun and fire one round, most purps will run. Even armed assailants don’t want to be in a shoot out.

On the subject of J-frames, if you put a crimson trace on it, you can actually hit stuff.

 

[Flatbed]

A lil stone work,and an apex spring kit will make them a totally different gun

It was her gun and she was DONE lol. The Colt is so much nicer in every aspect.

 

[Flatbed]

I like this idea, but it’s not really true. If you pull a gun and fire one round, most purps will run. Even armed assailants don’t want to be in a shoot out.

On the subject of J-frames, if you put a crimson trace on it, you can actually hit stuff.

It had a Crimson Trace laser grip... you could watch it go off target trying to pull the trigger

 

[Yotota]

A lil stone work,and an apex spring kit will make them a totally different gun

Yep. It's a 30min job, maybe 60min the first time.

 

[Yotota]

I like this idea, but it’s not really true. If you pull a gun and fire one round, most purps will run. Even armed assailants don’t want to be in a shoot out.

On the subject of J-frames, if you put a crimson trace on it, you can actually hit stuff.

"All ya gotta do is rack this here shotgun, and it'll scare anyone away." Right?




I absolutely beg to differ though. I think you're making a dangerous assumption that may work out in some cases, but when it fails it will fail hard.

You're assuming that the threat has a sense of self preservation, enough common sense to understand the situation, and enough civility/decorum to enable you to walk away from the situation after pulling a pistol and not actually doing work with it.

Hypothetical examples:

Some 17 year old shitbag who is posturing in front of his friends, or wants your wallet, or maybe your car? Okay, he may scare easily, but you can just as easily avoid those situations with common sense and situational awareness and carrying yourself with confidence.

Some douchebag at the bar trying to pick a fight? How about just avoid that situation so you don't have to scare him away?

A group of 24 year old gang members who decide to fuck you up? They have had guns in their faces half their lives, and will laugh at you. The ONLY way out of that is to shoot your way out, and you better drop one or two of them DRT to increase your odds.

35 year old tweaker coming at you with a sharpened piece of rebar because the voices in his head told him that you are a demon? Good luck scaring him off, you better get some CNS hits before you have new holes in your body and a case of HIV.

The list goes on.


If I'm carrying, the gun's sole purpose is to physically stop the threat of a violent male attacker who won't scare easily. And if the threat is real and shows action to harm me or my family, I'm not drawing to scare someone. I don't practice that and won't draw unless I'm going to follow through with it. When it comes time to draw... Clear, draw, present and stage, sight picture, shot. That's one motion that gets started as soon as the decision is made that there are no better options remaining.

I'm far from alone in this mindset.

 

[Steve300xcw]

Yep. It's a 30min job, maybe 60min the first time.

All depends on how long it takes to find the firing pin

 

[Yotota]

All depends on how long it takes to find the firing pin

The new Apex kits even include an upgraded firing pin because they know you already dropped the factory one.

 

[Steve300xcw]

I have had to go on a treasure hunt for that damn pin on every S&W I have taken apart.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Something to add: a good rigid carry belt, along with a good AIWB hard holster, will support any 15-20oz gun easily. It won't feel like a brick.

But like I've said before... This is coming from me and all the trainers I've learned from who aren't fat. If someone has a gut, the ergonomics are fucked for any IWB carry, especially AIWB. This is as good a reason as any to lose the gut.

Agree, i thought I would hate aiwb. I'm not fat by any means. ~180 lbs @ 5'11". After finally trying it, I love it. 90% of the day I'm either driving, or sitting in equipment. I often forget I'm carrying.

J frame. AKA Model 60. ?? Neighbor has one. It is a consideration, and I am certain with no doubt I could shoot that way more effectively than any Semi, or 45 1911 or anything. When you put it to hand it says " Yeah, yep, perfect". I have inherited the next model up, I think. It is simply labeled 357 Highway Patrolman. I can easily keep a cylinder on a paper plate at 25 yards. But it's too big and heavy to carry around. When I can I will get a look at that CSX and Kimber Micro.

Unless you've just put 1000s of rounds through only snub nosed 38s, there is no way you could shoot one more accurately than a fullsize 1911. My wife has almost no pistol experience and shot my RI 1911 waaaay better than her airweight.

You also seem to be contradicting yourself. You say you don't want bulk or wieght, but then want to look at steel framed autos?

I don't get how some people just don't want to accept that a lot of these little polymer 9s are so popular because they're actually good. I'd wager every guy who says they don't like them has never actually shot a good one.

Go to the gun range and try the shield, sig 365, glock 43, hellcat ect and I'd bet you'd be surprised how well they shoot. There are also a few small 9s in hammer fire if that's your preference.

Had a 642 Air weight . Christ I hated that gun. Fuck the trigger on that thing. Wife could hardly pull it. One of only two guns in my life I sold. Traded it in for a Colt Cobra for her. Now That is a sweet ass pistol.

No kidding. I was one of the idiots who thought it would be a good wife gun. Besides the simplicity and light wieght, it's really terrible to shoot. I keep bringing it and trying to get used to it, but it's laughable compared to my 365s. I'm not sure why we still have it honestly.

 

[Clb]

I like this idea, but it’s not really true. If you pull a gun and fire one round, most purps will run. Even armed assailants don’t want to be in a shoot out.

Riiiiiight...
Gawd wouldn't it be lovely

 

[Steve300xcw]

I like this idea, but it’s not really true. If you pull a gun and fire one round, most purps will run. Even armed assailants don’t want to be in a shoot out.

That might be one of the dumbest things I have ever read on here

 

[zlathim]

That might be one of the dumbest things I have ever read on here

I tend to agree. That isn't the mindset that I have. God forbid, if I ever have to draw my weapon on someone, they are dead in my eyes, not runnin away scared. YMMV

 

[Splib]

You also seem to be contradicting yourself. You say you don't want bulk or wieght, but then want to look at steel framed autos?

I don't get how some people just don't want to accept that a lot of these little polymer 9s are so popular because they're actually good. I'd wager every guy who says they don't like them has never actually shot a good one.

Go to the gun range and try the shield, sig 365, glock 43, hellcat ect and I'd bet you'd be surprised how well they shoot. There are also a few small 9s in hammer fire if that's your preference.



No kidding. I was one of the idiots who thought it would be a good wife gun. Besides the simplicity and light wieght, it's really terrible to shoot. I keep bringing it and trying to get used to it, but it's laughable compared to my 365s. I'm not sure why we still have it honestly.

I mis represented. I was saying that I can shoot the Smith revolver Highway Patrolman better than any shit. Its not even close for me. For me, a Revolver with SA/DA hammer trigger beats any auto. It better, it has a 5 3/4 inch barrel. Not worried about " muzzle flip". It's the first shot. Entirely different than a plastic mouse gun that is last ditch between death and life. Zimmerman was able to get his hand on his KelTec 9mm and fire a single shot and "neutralize the threat" . All that despite all the qualified words and testimony that when it comes to the time to ascend, the KelTec wont do it. It has to be fluffed and buffed.

IMHO it comes down to what and where you can carry comfortably. Not there yet. Not what happens after 6 shots at 15 yards. I cant see carrying a Smith and Wesson or Ruger revolver concealed. Thats just me. Or a full frame .45 auto. Not sitting in and getting out of a car, or another typical situation when you are most vulnerable and exposed.

Glock 43 is off the list here in CA. Kimber Micro 9mm, Smith CSX etc. .. . .

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Hard to understand your rambling

S&W Shield should be available in CA.

Like I said, quit being stubborn and go shoot one, the "I bet I can shoot my daddy's 38 better than any of these fancy new guns" is just retarded. A ccw is a tool, who gives a fuck what the status of it is.

Or if you really want, I have a nice light wieght hammer less 38 I'll sell you

 

[WaterH]

That might be one of the dumbest things I have ever read on here

I tend to agree. That isn't the mindset that I have. God forbid, if I ever have to draw my weapon on someone, they are dead in my eyes, not runnin away scared. YMMV

You guys are misinterpreting my point. I hope to kill any mugger that I draw on. But the average gunfight is 2.7 rounds for both sides! We all know that the cops shoot 17 rounds each, so that means there’s a whole lot of one round gun fights.

 

[Splib]

Pretty sure everyone here has seen the Texas Taco/Burrito shooter killer. It looks like he is drawing from what you call AIWB and it looks like he has some trouble with it. Probably because he is recumbent, sitiing down. Any thoughts on that ? It's a bad, inferior position to be in.

Place got broken into after the hit . . . . ..

 

[Aisin]

Pretty sure everyone here has seen the Texas Taco/Burrito shooter killer. It looks like he is drawing from what you call AIWB and it looks like he has some trouble with it. Probably because he is recumbent, sitiing down. Any thoughts on that ? It's a bad, inferior position to be in.

Place got broken into after the hit . . . . ..

Don’t be a fat fuck if you want to carry appendix.

 

[Yotota]

Pretty sure everyone here has seen the Texas Taco/Burrito shooter killer. It looks like he is drawing from what you call AIWB and it looks like he has some trouble with it. Probably because he is recumbent, sitiing down. Any thoughts on that ? It's a bad, inferior position to be in.

Place got broken into after the hit . . . . ..

AIWB aka appendix carry is the best position to draw from while seated... Unless your draw is fouled (just like any other method) by something in the way. Lots of clothing, long heavy jacket, shit sitting in your lap...

Don’t be a fat fuck if you want to carry appendix.

Or a fat gut.

 

[Aisin]

AIWB aka appendix carry is the best position to draw from while seated... Unless your draw is fouled (just like any other method) by something in the way. Lots of clothing, long heavy jacket, shit sitting in your lap...



Or a fat gut.

I carry appendix. I’m in better shape than most guys my age thankfully.

 

[aron82]

you'll shoot your dick off.

OWB would be superior in my opinion to appendix for seated.
front side jacket pocket carry is also superior.

 

[Roc Doc]

I like this idea, but it’s not really true. If you pull a gun and fire one round, most purps will run. Even armed assailants don’t want to be in a shoot out.

On the subject of J-frames, if you put a crimson trace on it, you can actually hit stuff.

The Fudd is strong with this one.