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School me on 9" ratios

Bebop said:
So that would be a reverse hypoid. Still doesn't exist.
Amboid is still coast side, just much stronger in that application.


Cost and ease of procurement ?
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I guess I misunderstood what someone posted earlier. :homer:

I get cost, but figured we were talking about top 4400 teams. Although it seems most are running mid engine and a flipped low pinion would be the correct rear orientation anyway.

I did notice in a video that Currie is running a far offset and high pinion 3rd in the rear. Must have been a very unlucky rock that hit the driveshaft hard enough fuck it up.

No idea on Vaughns car.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
I get cost, but figured we were talking about top 4400 teams. Although it seems most are running mid engine and a flipped low pinion would be the correct rear orientation anyway.
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In that case Blanton's is front engine.
I think the LP is the tried and true solution, just have to deal with that low ass pinion.

We need people to build 14bolt based drop-outs. (I know about Torq).
 
Bebop said:
We need people to build 14bolt based drop-outs. (I know about Torq).
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I do know someone who has a full set of SW drawings for the aluminum Torq 14 bolt drop-out, if there is anyone who want to take on production. They wouldn't be cheap, but they are available.

It wouldn't take much to develop a HP version of that.

The Tundra 10.5 would also be another one to take a closer look at.

A hi-pin 70 drop-out would also be cool.
 
No-go on the Tundra. Lack of lockers is a big drawback IMO.

And the HP70 would be an awesome choice as well, but I think Currie is the only company providing 35sp gears. Kinda like Gearworks, it's a big gamble IMO.

14 bolt would enable you to use a very common and cheap gearset, which is super strong, readily available and super easy to work on.
 
Bebop said:
No-go on the Tundra. Lack of lockers is a big drawback IMO.

And the HP70 would be an awesome choice as well, but I think Currie is the only company providing 35sp gears. Kinda like Gearworks, it's a big gamble IMO.

14 bolt would enable you to use a very common and cheap gearset, which is super strong, readily available and super easy to work on.
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Other than ARB and a spool, does it really matter that much on the 10.5 Tundra? Most comp guys are running one of those options anyway, though obviously GW has it's own autolocker option that's obviously very good.

I'd think lack of ratios deeper than 5.29 (and the somewhat mismatch of ratios as well) for the Tundra would be a bigger issue than the lockers, but the 14B has close to the same limitation at 5.38.
 
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I agree it would be nice to see more development put into a larger dropout third. In some respects though, the bigger 9" stuff is already there. Isn't there already 10.5 gears for a 9"? I think the biggest drawback for the 9" is simple the small carrier size.
 
Ghetto Fab. said:
I agree it would be nice to see more development put into a larger dropout third. In some respects though, the bigger 9" stuff is already there. Isn't there already 10.5 gears for a 9"? I think the biggest drawback for the 9" is simple the small carrier size.
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I think another drawback to even a 10.5" Ford 9" 3rd is the super low pinion position in the LP 3rd. Obviously a HP would solve that problem (while creating a different one)...not sure a 10.5" HP exists though.

I've read the odd shape of the 9" carrier is another allegedly weak point. I think that shape also contributes to the engagement issues seen with selectable lockers in the 9".
 
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Sean said:
I think another drawback to even a 10.5" Ford 9" 3rd is the super low pinion position in the LP 3rd. Obviously a HP would solve that problem...not sure a 10.5" HP exists though.

JMO, but the odd shape of the 9" carrier is another allegedly weak point. I think that shape also contributes to the engagement issues seen with selectable lockers in the 9".
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Right, still that low pinion, but its offset is one of the reasons its so strong. I want say its one of the reasons the deeper gear ratios don't loose as much strength vs something like a dana axle.

The carrier shape and size are both weak points. I'm pretty sure I can fit a 9" carrier inside my 70 rear carrier. When you look at race trucks with 10" rears, you start to notice a lot of spools. The 14bolt is better in this case as even though it has the same shape carrier it is at least larger.
 
Sean said:
Other than ARB and a spool, does it really matter that much on the 10.5 Tundra? Most comp guys are running one of those options anyway, though obviously GW has it's own autolocker option that's obviously very good.

I'd think lack of ratios deeper than 5.29 (and the somewhat mismatch of ratios as well) for the Tundra would be a bigger issue than the lockers, but the 14B has close to the same limitation at 5.38.
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I'm more worried about the lack of 40, 45 and 47sp options.

Ghetto Fab. said:
I agree it would be nice to see more development put into a larger dropout third. In some respects though, the bigger 9" stuff is already there. Isn't there already 10.5 gears for a 9"? I think the biggest drawback for the 9" is simple the small carrier size.
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TW has a billet 10+ dropout that's supposed to be unbreakable. +7k$ makes it completely unattainable.
 
Ghetto Fab. said:
Right, still that low pinion, but its offset is one of the reasons its so strong. I want say its one of the reasons the deeper gear ratios don't loose as much strength vs something like a dana axle.

The carrier shape and size are both weak points. I'm pretty sure I can fit a 9" carrier inside my 70 rear carrier. When you look at race trucks with 10" rears, you start to notice a lot of spools. The 14bolt is better in this case as even though it has the same shape carrier it is at least larger.
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That’s why we run spools in the rear instead of a locker and not cheap “lightweight” racing spools either. The GW spool is basically the same size as a 9” open carrier but heavier because it’s solid in the center. Looks like the only thing we can keep alive up front is a comp ARB at $2700 bucks. The 9/10 HP R&P are not the weak point even with 40 spline shafts. You’ll twist 40 spline shafts off with a spooled HP 10 and not hurt the diff.
 
Bebop said:
I'm more worried about the lack of 40, 45 and 47sp options.
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Fair point. Obviously, if it got popular, those options would likely be investigated. As it is, it's too rare....finding donor 3rds is neither easy nor cheap making it less likely to ever get popular in the first place.
 
JR4X said:
That’s why we run spools in the rear instead of a locker and not cheap “lightweight” racing spools either. The GW spool is basically the same size as a 9” open carrier but heavier because it’s solid in the center. Looks like the only thing we can keep alive up front is a comp ARB at $2700 bucks. The 9/10 HP R&P are not the weak point even with 40 spline shafts. You’ll twist 40 spline shafts off with a spooled HP 10 and not hurt the diff.
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That's interesting on the spools....I'd have thought even a simple lightweight spool would be damn near impossible to break. Guess not.
 
Sean said:
Fair point. Obviously, if it got popular, those options would likely be investigated. As it is, it's too rare....finding donor 3rds is neither easy nor cheap making it less likely to ever get popular in the first place.
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Exactly.
Which is why 14 bolt is the winner in my book, again and again.

$500 40sp spool.
$500 R&P + install kit
$100 forged yoke

In a $1000ish dropout case with a $1000ish housing,

I'd say this would be a lovely option.
 
Sean said:
I'd think lack of ratios deeper than 5.29 (and the somewhat mismatch of ratios as well) for the Tundra would be a bigger issue than the lockers, but the 14B has close to the same limitation at 5.38.
Click to expand...

Who out there is running deeper that the 5.43 (so close to 5.38)?

Ghetto Fab. said:
I agree it would be nice to see more development put into a larger dropout third. In some respects though, the bigger 9" stuff is already there. Isn't there already 10.5 gears for a 9"? I think the biggest drawback for the 9" is simple the small carrier size.
Click to expand...

The main problem with the 10" gearsets is they are still riding on a 9" diff.

Need to design a diff that is based on the 9", but grow the differential itself bigger enough to fit the big "K" gearset from ARB (D60/70/80/14B etc), then design the ring and pinion to fit. Add in a quick change gearset to flip the gear to a high pin. Then you are running on the drive side of the gears and have a high pin.

Of course there are always portals to do the same.


Bebop said:
I'm more worried about the lack of 40, 45 and 47sp options.

TW has a billet 10+ dropout that's supposed to be unbreakable. +7k$ makes it completely unattainable.
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The Tundra 10.5 ARB should be able do 40 spline as they are using that same K gearset as the 60/70/80. It would depend on the bearing journals, though I believe those are also the same as the D70, except they're off by a few mm.
 
Tech Tim said:
The Tundra 10.5 ARB should be able do 40 spline as they are using that same K gearset as the 60/70/80. It would depend on the bearing journals, though I believe those are also the same as the D70, except they're off by a few mm.
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If ARB was offering the diff already machined and ready for 40sp, I would be a lot more receptive :smokin:
But now you still have to order $500 worth of extra side gears, machine the case, hope it works etc
 
Bebop said:
Exactly.
Which is why 14 bolt is the winner in my book, again and again.

$500 40sp spool.
$500 R&P + install kit
$100 forged yoke

In a $1000ish dropout case with a $1000ish housing,

I'd say this would be a lovely option.
Click to expand...

They definitely make a lot of sense.

Easy Rick Mooneyham ran the Torque 14 bolt low pins in a few cars and a few KOHs and never had an issue.

Slawson ran the Tundra 10.5 (with a modified 70 ARB) for (iirc) two KOHs and he told me he never even opened it up, let alone tore it down.
 
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Tech Tim said:
They definitely make a lot of sense.
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Agreed.
Now imagine you'd design the dropout in a way you could simply flip around the pinion support and turn into a Hp version (like the JRAT unit), you'd have a future-proof winner.

Start selling the dropout ASAP with commonly found / cheap gears and spend the time to design the fancy HP option.
When you're ready with the new gears, put them up for sale. They would work in already existing dropouts (easy upgrade for the people who have them) or in new dropouts (that you could sell right away since you already have ben selling them for a while).

Tech Tim said:
Easy Rick Mooneyham ran the Torque 14 bolt low pins in a few carss and never had an issue.
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Tom Liu and Ryan Anderson too

Tech Tim said:
Slawson ran the Tundra 10.5 (with a modified 70 ARB) for (iirc) two KOHs and he told me he never even opened it up, let alone tore it down.
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Yep, that too.
 
Bebop said:
Agreed.
Now imagine you'd design the dropout in a way you could simply flip around the pinion support and turn into a Hp version (like the JRAT unit), you'd have a future-proof winner.
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The JRat was cool for it's time, but it was huge in size, bigger than the 14 bolt drop-outs.

It could be done a lot smaller.
 
Bebop said:
Exactly.
Which is why 14 bolt is the winner in my book, again and again.

$500 40sp spool.
$500 R&P + install kit
$100 forged yoke

In a $1000ish dropout case with a $1000ish housing,

I'd say this would be a lovely option.
Click to expand...

I still gotta wonder why a very simply machined chunk of 4130 heat treated is more than $150....since other 35 spline spools are that much for a D60. Crazy that 40 spline can demand that price jump, but it is what it is.

Totally agree with you though....that'd be the option I'd take if it were available. I'd wager plenty of people would agree. Kind of amazing with the following the 14B has that a drop out 3rd hasn't taken off (albeit the Torq and other options were crazy spendy which is probably why).
 
Tech Tim said:
Who out there is running deeper that the 5.43 (so close to 5.38)?



The main problem with the 10" gearsets is they are still riding on a 9" diff.

Need to design a diff that is based on the 9", but grow the differential itself bigger enough to fit the big "K" gearset from ARB (D60/70/80/14B etc), then design the ring and pinion to fit. Add in a quick change gearset to flip the gear to a high pin. Then you are running on the drive side of the gears and have a high pin.

Of course there are always portals to do the same.




The Tundra 10.5 ARB should be able do 40 spline as they are using that same K gearset as the 60/70/80. It would depend on the bearing journals, though I believe those are also the same as the D70, except they're off by a few mm.
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No one I know of....but there seems to be a whole lot of people here asking for 6.0 and deeper 9" ratios....I think with the 8 and 10 speed autos, a really deep 6+:1 R&P may be pretty darn popular.

Agree on the need to make the 9" diff itself bigger.

The Tundra could be a great diff....I just don't see it happening with the way things are currently. It certainly has potential, it just doesn't have a big following at the moment. It would be cool if it took off though.
 
Sean said:
I still gotta wonder why a very simply machined chunk of 4130 heat treated is more than $150....since other 35 spline spools are that much for a D60.
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I was looking at D60 spools today, try $275+
 
Sean said:
Kind of amazing with the following the 14B has that a drop out 3rd hasn't taken off (albeit the Torq and other options were crazy spendy which is probably why).
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Shitty business behind the name = not taking off.
 
Sean said:
I still gotta wonder why a very simply machined chunk of 4130 heat treated is more than $150....since other 35 spline spools are that much for a D60. Crazy that 40 spline can demand that price jump, but it is what it is.
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Heat treated chromoly isn't simple. First off that would be a big chunk of Chromo ($$$$), then the roughing in machining, then the heat treat, then the finish machine work to get everything straight again.

There is way more than an hour of work in it.
 
posford said:
The majority are not $145 if you look around. IDK why that one is so cheap compared to others
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Because others are price gouging. Id trust ECGS spool over another potential no name spool 10 to 1.
 
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