Russia / Ukraine thread

[Redrider]

I completely disagree with virtually everything in this post for the record. It's good to have open discussion, er debate so keep at it.

The Youtube clown that was all over the news was certain the Ukraine was finished by the end of the winter. He was wrong and proven "faulty analysis" Was that Macgregor ?

I dont think macgregor would say that. Last year he discussed the Russian draft. Russia didn’t have enough bodies but he continues to say Ukraine won’t win this. Even today no one knows where are those drafties are.

 

[87manche]

It’s good agree and disagree. When this comes to an end Russia’s military will be more powerful and experienced. no one knows where the Russian Air Force is on this. They have been using mostly the Su-25 sort of like the old A-6. But they are being used more. Where are the newer fighters. no one knows. What are they capable of. No one knows. If their missiles can hit targets hundreds of miles away I would think that technology is also in those fighters. yes air superiority is a good thing but no offense has been launched these would not be in play.

as far as using stealth, that yet it to be proven against russias newer missile sytems or ours. In Syria from what macgregor has mentioned Russia is told when the planes are up. They have the newer radar and air defense system around the air base trump messed up. isreal refused to supply the iron dome system. The patriots are failing to take out drones in Saudi and they are running out of missiles, Russias though has taken down both drones and himars.

if Russia does start a major offense I’m sure there will be a lot of aircraft flying about.

thanks to this Ukraine mess I betting Russia is leaning a thing or two.

Everyone knows when f35 or f22 are about.

Now try getting a shorter wave targeting radar to track them and guide a missile to them.

 

[Redrider]

Everyone knows when f35 or f22 are about.

Now try getting a shorter wave targeting radar to track them and guide a missile to them.

I would hope they do what they are designed to.

 

[CDA 455 II]

I would hope they do what they are designed to.

Nine years ago F-22s were used to take out air defenses before the main strike package arrived in Syria.

We were genuinely concerned about the Syrian-bought Russian air defense system

 

[ev13wt]

So the Nazis went to the Ukraine after WW2, not to Brazil or Argentina?

Aaron Z

Yea there a are bunch of Jews in power so they went to UKR just so they can feel like at home...

 

[87manche]

Nine years ago F-22s were used to take out air defenses before the main strike package arrived in Syria.

We were genuinely concerned about the Syrian-bought Russian air defense system

almost like using stealth fighters is a valid plan to destroy air defenses.

so if russia has fancy SU57 stealth fighters and anti radiation missiles, why haven't they destroyed all the air defenses over ukraine and taken control of the skies?

 

[Splib]

Because it was mentioned above, I believe the Russian air force is small, and they are preserving it for the future. Or they wont have an air force. It's another paper tiger enhanced by fear and worst case misgivings. I looked it up a while back on simple search wiki. That available public info showed it is a fraction of ours. Not even sized against the EU and Turkey. Given that any Russian air object will be located and tracked the instant it becomes aloft is an astonishing but sobering realization for them. Talking about their air force is an unknown with unknown capabilities is kinda irrelevant in many contexts.

Flinging very expensive highly sophisticated irreplaceable aircraft is not an expense they can justify yet like wasting hulking legacy tanks and hordes of fresh meat inductees.

 

[87manche]

Because it was mentioned above, I believe the Russian air force is small, and they are preserving it for the future. Or they wont have an air force. It's another paper tiger enhanced by fear and worst case misgivings. I looked it up a while back on simple search wiki. That available public info showed it is a fraction of ours. Not even sized against the EU and Turkey. Given that any Russian air object will be located and tracked the instant it becomes aloft is an astonishing but sobering realization for them. Talking about their air force is an unknown with unknown capabilities is kinda irrelevant in many contexts.

Flinging very expensive highly sophisticated irreplaceable aircraft is not an expense they can justify yet like wasting hulking legacy tanks and hordes of fresh meat inductees.

but if you used your high technology fancy stealth fighters to achieve air superiority, wouldn't that lessen the overall cost of the war by allowing you much greater freedom to maneuver and much more effective close air support?

They keep chucking ka52s at the problem and losing them, it's not like those are cheap.
What good do these high capability assets do you if you don't deploy them?
further, as the man has repeatedly said, Russia stronk and manufacturing them right now. If russia has the budget and means to manufacture them in full scale production, why would they be worried about losing 1 or 2 of them to accomplish that mission?

Maybe it's because they don't have them in full scale production because they're fucking poor and can't actually manufacture all the fancy shit they roll out on the parade grounds?

Which is exactly my point. Russia does not have a modern military. They play like they do, but if those assets are so sacred that you can't actually deploy them to the battlefield because of politics, cost or propoganda, then you don't really have a modern military now do you?

 

[surpip]

Because it was mentioned above, I believe the Russian air force is small, and they are preserving it for the future. Or they wont have an air force.

But if it works as intended, then there is no reason to preserve it. You use it to it's full advantages, that's what it's there for.

 

[Splib]

Without repeating what 87Manche said, yeah, I agree. They don't really have shit. Using it, saving it, letting it rust, dont matter. They suck. Weird how big a deal was made by MSM when of their interceptors spewed giz and brought down a 400 mph propeller driven pilotless drone. Right up their with Brandon's TKO of the Chy-Nah balloon.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

but if you used your high technology fancy stealth fighters to achieve air superiority, wouldn't that lessen the overall cost of the war by allowing you much greater freedom to maneuver and much more effective close air support?

They keep chucking ka52s at the problem and losing them, it's not like those are cheap.
What good do these high capability assets do you if you don't deploy them?
further, as the man has repeatedly said, Russia stronk and manufacturing them right now. If russia has the budget and means to manufacture them in full scale production, why would they be worried about losing 1 or 2 of them to accomplish that mission?

Maybe it's because they don't have them in full scale production because they're fucking poor and can't actually manufacture all the fancy shit they roll out on the parade grounds?

Which is exactly my point. Russia does not have a modern military. They play like they do, but if those assets are so sacred that you can't actually deploy them to the battlefield because of politics, cost or propoganda, then you don't really have a modern military now do you?

Ding ding ding. The fact that Russia still hasn't achieved air superiority says a lot. That's something that should happen immediately if possible to limit casualties and loss of equipment. There's no strategy out there where it's considered better NOT to.

 

[Splib]

Ding ding ding.

Just finished watching Better Call Saul and the Hector bell ring thing. Ouch

 

[bigun]

 

[Yota Up]

Ding ding ding. The fact that Russia still hasn't achieved air superiority says a lot. That's something that should happen immediately if possible to limit casualties and loss of equipment. There's no strategy out there where it's considered better NOT to.

If not for the US $$$ and involvement and stingers, etc....would they have had air superiority by now?

 

[westracing01]

Assuming Europe itself didn't supply them with whatever they've got in the SAM category?

Probably. Quick Wiki shows no home grown Ukraine SAM's. There's some German/Ukrainian thing along with whatever they had laying around. How much of that ordinance was already expended before the invasion I have no idea.

If not for the Ruskie Nukes, this shit show would've been over in a week. NATO would've swept the skies clear of any adversary leaving them with unrivaled air superiority. A few groups on the ground to direct the air power in support of land forces and the Ruskies would've been running home to mama.

If, if, if... Biggest little word in the dictionary.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

If not for the US $$$ and involvement and stingers, etc....would they have had air superiority by now?

It's a good question. The Iraqi's had MANPADS when we invaded and that didn't stop the US from gaining air superiority very quickly. Hard to say how much impact other US involvement had on that.

 

[87manche]

If not for the US $$$ and involvement and stingers, etc....would they have had air superiority by now?

they still haven't destroyed ukraine's soviet era air defense systems.

and they literally know everything there is to know about those.
I guess the plan is to just let the ukrainians shoot them at russian aircraft until they run out of missiles instead of doing iron hand shit. great plan.

 

[87manche]

It's a good question. The Iraqi's had MANPADS when we invaded and that didn't stop the US from gaining air superiority very quickly. Hard to say how much impact other US involvement had on that.

manpads aren't effective above 10K feet.

which is why you blow the shit out of the big air defense systems and then drop precision munitions on ground targets from 20K feet, where you're just loitering around free of any care in the world waiting for somebody to call you and hit the button that drops ordnance.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

manpads aren't effective above 10K feet.

which is why you blow the shit out of the big air defense systems and then drop precision munitions on ground targets from 20K feet, where you're just loitering around free of any care in the world waiting for somebody to call you and hit the button that drops ordnance.

right. I was using iraq as an example that MANPADS(stingers and whatnot) shouldn't stop a first rate fighting force from gaining air superiority.

 

[westracing01]

What is Russia's capability with regards to precision munitions?

 

[[486]]

It's a good question. The Iraqi's had MANPADS when we invaded and that didn't stop the US from gaining air superiority very quickly. Hard to say how much impact other US involvement had on that.

fun story I remember hearing
the sand people who had stingers left over from when we gave them to them would hide rather than firing them

because if they used up their rocket from the eighties, then they wouldn't be big man with the big gun any more lol

 

[Drummer79]

This might be semi unrelated, or it might be right on point, because I only heard the tail end of it today on Glenn Beck's radio show, but he was saying something about how if the US ended up in a war, we'd be out of ammunition in a matter of DAYS, maybe last a week or two. I don't know if he was referring to if we jumped into this war, or if he meant like WW3, but was also talking about our strategic oil reserves being so depleted as well. I also don't know if he meant like bullets, or bigger ammo for tanks, ships, etc.. maybe someone else heard it all or knows more on the topic?

 

[bigun]

This might be semi unrelated, or it might be right on point, because I only heard the tail end of it today on Glenn Beck's radio show, but he was saying something about how if the US ended up in a war, we'd be out of ammunition in a matter of DAYS, maybe last a week or two. I don't know if he was referring to if we jumped into this war, or if he meant like WW3, but was also talking about our strategic oil reserves being so depleted as well. I also don't know if he meant like bullets, or bigger ammo for tanks, ships, etc.. maybe someone else heard it all or knows more on the topic?

From what I have gleened we're pretty much depleted of everything

 

[Pook]

And maybe China and Russia are waiting for supplies to be really depleted before the real moves take place. If I was Putin saving my good stuff for Nato would be on my mind.

 

[Pook]

This might be semi unrelated, or it might be right on point, because I only heard the tail end of it today on Glenn Beck's radio show, but he was saying something about how if the US ended up in a war, we'd be out of ammunition in a matter of DAYS, maybe last a week or two. I don't know if he was referring to if we jumped into this war, or if he meant like WW3, but was also talking about our strategic oil reserves being so depleted as well. I also don't know if he meant like bullets, or bigger ammo for tanks, ships, etc.. maybe someone else heard it all or knows more on the topic?

To busy making sure the woke agenda is going full steam ahead to worry about weapons and ammunition.

Here in Canada we don't have anything...our military has been run ragged for many years.

 

[Drummer79]

From what I have gleened we're pretty much depleted of everything

not shocked, and willing to bet it's intentional.

 

[bigun]

I knew I had seen something about this.

‘Worried’ weapons makers scrambling to find workers to meet Ukraine-fueled demand - The Daily Bo Snerdley

U.S. and European weapons manufacturing companies are struggling to hire enough staff to keep up with the demand surge amid the war in Ukraine, The Wall Street Journal reported. While hiring has reportedly gotten better in the past few months, the majority of defense companies in the U.S. failed...

thedailybs.com

‘Worried’ weapons makers scrambling to find workers to meet Ukraine-fueled demand​

by Trevor Schakohl

U.S. and European weapons manufacturing companies are struggling to hire enough staff to keep up with the demand surge amid the war in Ukraine, The Wall Street Journal reported.

While hiring has reportedly gotten better in the past few months, the majority of defense companies in the U.S. failed to reach recruitment goals last year and some industry employees permanently left following COVID-19 furloughs, according to the outlet. European weapons producers have stepped up hiring efforts in response to military spending hikes by countries in the region as Russia-related fears abound, and members of the U.K.-based aerospace, security, defense and space trade organization the ADS Group faced 10,000 empty positions at the close of 2023, its chief economist Aimie Stone said.

“Defense companies are worried at the moment about recruitment,” Stone said, according to the WSJ. BAE Systems, the biggest European defense firm, wants to bring on thousands of new employees, while MBDA Missile Systems is seeking to grow its staff by more than 15% and Lockheed Martin hopes to add 200 workers to its Camden, Arkansas factory.

Mane Contract Services consultant Kieran Slaughter in the U.K. said car and airplane producers generally offer higher pay than weapons manufacturers without posing identical security clearance hurdles, the WSJ reported. He argued some potential hires “don’t want to wait around” for the usual weeks or months to get clearance.

Recruitment issues come as weapons firms face increasing costs and supply problems for parts like chips and rocket motors. The defense electric systems producer French Thales SA, which hopes to make 12,000 hires in 2023, also plans to expand its foreign engineering facilities and increasingly lean on business partnerships with other firms in response to “tensions on some labor markets,” CEO Patrice Caine said, according to the WSJ.

“Our first priority is really to ramp up capacity, which, of course, means increasing staff,” Caine told the outlet.

 

[shortbus4x4]

Just in time materials management doesn't work so well in war.

Unprepared for long war, US Army under gun to make more ammo

One of the most important munitions of the Ukraine war comes from a historic factory in this city built by coal barons, where tons of steel rods are brought in by train to be forged into the artillery shells Kyiv can’t get enough of — and that the U.S. can’t produce fast enough. The Scranton...

www.yahoo.com

 

[Mikel]

Just in time materials management doesn't work so well in war.

Unprepared for long war, US Army under gun to make more ammo

One of the most important munitions of the Ukraine war comes from a historic factory in this city built by coal barons, where tons of steel rods are brought in by train to be forged into the artillery shells Kyiv can’t get enough of — and that the U.S. can’t produce fast enough. The Scranton...

www.yahoo.com

It's more likely that the US military is not going to be fighting a WWI type of war.

 

[westracing01]

I think it was the Yom Kippur War where ordnance expenditures were far higher than planned for necessitating and emergency resupply of Israel by the U.S.

I mention this only because it was an all out real war fought with relatively modern weapons. Many have been fought since, but not too many that had relatively evenly matched foes on each side.

Modern weapons are complex and take more time to build. In all out shooting war against a foe similarly matched there is a high chance of expending ammunition far quicker than it can be replaced.