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Russia / Ukraine thread

[486] said:
Fuck man, it's been a very well known thing since they were fighting in afghanistan.

their dudes in the air do not talk to their dudes on the ground
at all
both talk to their own command chain
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The whole of the Russian military is a clusterfuck. They're even worse than Saddam Hussien's military was.
 
It's hard to really know about what happened in Syria. And that was Wagner Group ( ? ) But it seemed that the rooskies cleaned out ISis pretty effectively and quickly. Not saying that's comprable to fighting the Ukraine backed by western intel and precision ordinance.
 
Splib said:
It's hard to really know about what happened in Syria. And that was Wagner Group ( ? ) But it seemed that the rooskies cleaned out ISis pretty effectively and quickly. Not saying that's comprable to fighting the Ukraine backed by western intel and precision ordinance.
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You're correct, not even remotely comparable. Lots of the Ukrainian troops are getting intensive western training and modern western arms/com gear.
 
SanDiegoCJ said:
Put down TASS. I get noting from CNN.
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bruh
read your own two previous posts ITT, 9533 and 9535, back to back

according to those two posts of yours;
the russkis are managing to more or less hold their lines against western supplied and trained forces
yet they're lagging behind saddam's army
 
We took Baghdad in what, 3 weeks? Saying Russia's military is worse than that just isn't being realistic.

This is part for the course with Russia. The first year of all of their wars is a shit show of incompetence. After that, they semi get their shit together but mainly they just start throwing bodies into the meat grinder. That's where we are now. Russia has a lot more bodies to feed I to the meat grinder than Ukraine does and they've been insulating themselves for decades against the sanctions they knew would come. Sure, they've hurt but they're still able to supply their war machine.

I still don't understand their calculus of how they thought this was a good move but really that doesn't matter. I'm an American not a Russian. So I'm a lot more concerned with how we have come to the conclusion that waging an all out proxy war with Russia over a country that we have zero treaty obligations toward and that honestly has minimal impact on us in any way was a good idea for us.
 
east_beast said:
I still don't understand their calculus of how they thought this was a good move but really that doesn't matter. I'm an American not a Russian. So I'm a lot more concerned with how we have come to the conclusion that waging an all out proxy war with Russia over a country that we have zero treaty obligations toward and that honestly has minimal impact on us in any way was a good idea for us.
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Their corruption is easy for us to see since they're focused on hiding it from the people that it needs to be hidden from, their own.

Just like how our world-spanning corruption is blatantly obvious to anyone with eyes, but there's many here who just can't see it. All the effort to hide it is focused inward.
 
Russia in WW2 lost 40 million people by the hands of the German nazis. Ukraine is full of them. With NATO and the US backing this war Russia isn’t going to stop. is Russias military incompetent? No. Are they throwing bodies into this? No. This is a ground war and Russia is using artillery, missiles and drones. Ukraine army is loosing, they are the ones tossing bodies into the meat grinder. The Ukraine air defense is gone now the Russian Air Force is being used. If Russia has missiles that hit targets dead on so can their Air Force after all they did take out an American drone with even firing a shot.

in the end this mess will have created a massive Russian army and defense industry.

we’ll need to wait and see when the ground is capable of running heavy armor over it what the out come will be.

Biden fubar’ed this.
 
Russia is struggling mightily against a country they should've walked over. You're sugar coating it pretty massively for them. Yeah, we're committing serious foreign policy blunders but that's been our M.O. in the post-WWII era. But yeah, the Russian military is pretty incompetent and yeah they're throwing bodies into the meat grinder. Offensive forces will almost always suffer more casualties than defensive forces. Just the way it goes.
 
aczlan said:
So the Nazis went to the Ukraine after WW2, not to Brazil or Argentina?

Aaron Z
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It made me wonder as well, but I began to think about what an old Ukrainian friend of my parents used to talk about. He was born in the 30s so was a young man during WW2. He used to talk about how there were a lot of citizens who were on Germanys side and a lot of the country thought Hitler was OK and turned on the Jews themselves. He ended up on the run for a long time as he was opposed to this. He ended up in Russia for a time and fought with them until he could run off again towards the end of the war.

I always thought he was full of crap but now a quick google search is kinda sorta coming up with the same thing.

Gonna have to go down that rabbit hole one rainy day and see just how much truth there is to it.
 
aczlan said:
So the Nazis went to the Ukraine after WW2, not to Brazil or Argentina?

Aaron Z
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you'd have thought that the soviets would have rooted out the problem given they controlled ukraine for 50 years.

I still maintain that the russian military was a paper tiger and the first 48 hours of the invasion proved that.

that doesn't mean they can't win, but they should have won in the first 4 weeks, decisively, given their advantage in air power, equipment and manpower.
russia has never had air superiority, and by their own news outlet's admission they're air defense systems shoot down their own aircraft.
 
Lawless said:
He used to talk about how there were a lot of citizens who were on Germanys side and a lot of the country thought Hitler was OK and turned on the Jews themselves.
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well yeah, they always used local authorities to round up the undesirables

foreigners coming along and rounding up a portion of your neighbors? That's much harder for a society to stomach than being brainwashed enough to do it yourself.
 
Lawless said:
He used to talk about how there were a lot of citizens who were on Germanys side and a lot of the country thought Hitler was OK and turned on the Jews themselves.
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I would note that we in the US weren't much better, there was a LOT of antisemitism and pro nazism in the US until it became clear exactly what Hitler was working towards and we were fully involved in WWII.

Lawless said:
He ended up on the run for a long time as he was opposed to this. He ended up in Russia for a time and fought with them until he could run off again towards the end of the war.

I always thought he was full of crap but now a quick google search is kinda sorta coming up with the same thing.

Gonna have to go down that rabbit hole one rainy day and see just how much truth there is to it.
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As I understand it (from research by my brother who spent a couple of years in that area and did deep dive down that rabbit hole), there is a fair amount of Ukrainian nationalism (as would be expected in a military unit who is defending against another contriy taking part of their country), some groups (such as the Azov brigade) were started by those who were very nationalist and have had neo-nazi ties/leaning, but since the units were brought in as an official part of the Ukrainian armed forces (in 2014 for the Azov brigade) they have been "cleaned up" and are no longer tied to those who initially started the group.
He says that they also are working at reducing corruption, they have been making large strides at getting rid of the "Soviet era graft" system and charging those who were corrupt with the crimes that they committed.

Aaron Z
 
aczlan said:
I would note that we in the US weren't much better, there was a LOT of antisemitism and pro nazism in the US until it became clear exactly what Hitler was working towards and we were fully involved in WWII.
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just ask henry ford about the jews.


edit:
and lets not forget that ford's own anti semitism was rooted in a russian document published in the early 1900s.....
 
Redrider said:
No you said that. Ukraine is a corrupt cesspool. Deserves what’s coming down the line. Let’s see what happens with the spring offensive..
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and russia is not a corrupt cesspool?

edit:
and I'm still waiting on you to illustrate the greatness of the russian air force.
since we all apparently aren't privy to your knowledge.
 
Redrider said:
No you said that.
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Your words:
Redrider said:
Russia in WW2 lost 40 million people by the hands of the German nazis. Ukraine is full of them.
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  1. If you didn't mean to say that Ukraine is full of German Nazis, perhaps you should have worded that post differently (replaced "them" with "nazis" in the last quoted sentence), as written that is what you said.
  2. Who cares how many Russians were killed by Germans in WWII? Why are we using that as an excuse to start a war now?

Redrider said:
Ukraine is a corrupt cesspool. Deserves what’s coming down the line. Let’s see what happens with the spring offensive..
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Are you saying that Russia is LESS of a corrupt cesspool?
IMO, 3/4 of the problems that the Russian military is running into are due to military leaders siphoning off money intended for repairs and maintenance into their own bank accounts.
That's why there are pictures of Russian planes with "Western civilian" GPS units in the cockpit so they can figure out where to go.
That's why there were pictures of the shredded tires on Russian trucks where the tire was built before the fall of the Soviet Union.
That's why the "reactive armor" on some tanks was cardboard boxes.

Has Ukraine been as corrupt as Russia? Yes.
Are they in the process of making changes to weed it out? From the people "on the ground" who my brother knows, yes.
But you take a system of corruption that has been there for 80+ years and it's not going away overnight.
It's going to take a generation to get rid of it completely.

Did we have a hand in the "Euromaidan" that ousted the "Russian approved" Yanukovych and replaced him with Zelenski? I would bet that we were "helping and encouraging" the protestors.

HOWEVER if you believe Russian propaganda that the Russians DIDN'T do at least as much (probably more) to "help and encourage" the pro-russian protestors, milita groups, authorities, etc and DIDN'T have a hand in causing the unrest that they used as an excuse to annex parts of Ukraine (ie: Crimea, Donetsk), you need to rethink your preconceptions.



Aaron Z
 
Redrider said:
Yes everything Russia has is pos. Lol
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how many 5th gen fighters have they fielded in the air over ukraine?
how did they let one of their awacs planes get a grenade dropped on it from a quadcopter?
how many friendly fire incidents have brought down russian aircraft?
how have they secured the airspace so they can adequately provide CAS to troops on the ground and strike strategic objectives with accuracy?

You always drop in here and act like you know something the rest of us don't, so I'm asking.
 
aczlan said:
Your words:

  1. If you didn't mean to say that Ukraine is full of German Nazis, perhaps you should have worded that post differently (replaced "them" with "nazis" in the last quoted sentence), as written that is what you said.
  2. Who cares how many Russians were killed by Germans in WWII? Why are we using that as an excuse to start a war now?


Are you saying that Russia is LESS of a corrupt cesspool?
IMO, 3/4 of the problems that the Russian military is running into are due to military leaders siphoning off money intended for repairs and maintenance into their own bank accounts.
That's why there are pictures of Russian planes with "Western civilian" GPS units in the cockpit so they can figure out where to go.
That's why there were pictures of the shredded tires on Russian trucks where the tire was built before the fall of the Soviet Union.
That's why the "reactive armor" on some tanks was cardboard boxes.

Has Ukraine been as corrupt as Russia? Yes.
Are they in the process of making changes to weed it out? From the people "on the ground" who my brother knows, yes.
But you take a system of corruption that has been there for 80+ years and it's not going away overnight.
It's going to take a generation to get rid of it completely.

Did we have a hand in the "Euromaidan" that ousted the "Russian approved" Yanukovych and replaced him with Zelenski? I would bet that we were "helping and encouraging" the protestors.

HOWEVER if you believe Russian propaganda that the Russians DIDN'T do at least as much (probably more) to "help and encourage" the pro-russian protestors, milita groups, authorities, etc and DIDN'T have a hand in causing the unrest that they used as an excuse to annex parts of Ukraine (ie: Crimea, Donetsk), you need to rethink your preconceptions.



Aaron Z
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I agree for the most part but I doubt the de-corruption effort goes all that well. Hard to root put corruption in that environment. I remember how well it worked out the last time we spent a ton of resources training a military and propping up a government. Afghanistan held up for about 15 minutes before the fat cats bailed out of there and everything fell apart. We have no shortage of corruption ourselves. $2.3T went into Afghanistan. Well, earmarked for Afghanistan. The vast majority of it went into the coffers of our own MIC.
 
87manche said:
how many 5th gen fighters have they fielded in the air over ukraine?
how did they let one of their awacs planes get a grenade dropped on it from a quadcopter?
how many friendly fire incidents have brought down russian aircraft?
how have they secured the airspace so they can adequately provide CAS to troops on the ground and strike strategic objectives with accuracy?

You always drop in here and act like you know something the rest of us don't, so I'm asking.
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Lol. True stories from the pentagon spewed out through all the major news networks and congress. It’s clear you’re a news reader. But wasn’t there a kid that released some docs contradicting Russian loses? Showing Ukraine is losing all around? How could a russian news agency report that the Russian Air Force is a joke? Wouldn’t Putin shut that down? Yes true stories from the Kremlin happen also.

most of your comments are bs. No one knows what the capabilities of any nations military defenses are, the certainly don’t post it.

russia is blowing all of ukraines military up so they do have eyes out there. Why would anyone risk flying their top end aircraft into an area that still might have a missile defense? They don’t need to. Whats a 5th generation anything in this War Missile defense systems would stop that. It’s an artillery war currently. Russia except the Wagner group is in no offense, there just shelling the shit out of them, droning equipment, and missile fucking the rest.

I would guess you would state the same for the Chinese forces.

never underestimate what another major force can do. Macgregor tells more of a true vision of this conflict.




no Russian awacs were damaged. Good press no damage.
 
isn't that the whole point of fancy stealth aircraft?
to destroy air defenses so you can control the skies?
Wouldn't this be a good time to use them and some anti radiation missiles if you had them?
so you could establish air superiority and strike at will wherever you pleased?
We can all agree that's the goal right? That we've all seen that air power is a decisive means to achieve victory in the 20th century? Why would they not want that if it were within their grasp?
Just so they don't have to risk a few fancy aircraft? Ones that you say are in mass production right? Why build them if you can't afford to lose them?

surely you don't believe that simply tossing enough bodies at the problem to solve it is the best way to do warfare these days, and I doubt that the russians do either. Didn't putin announce the modernization a decade ago, a more professional army not reliant on conscripts with more advanced weaponry and modern tactics?
Where is it?

edit:
I believe that china may be more capable than russia, but then again I thought russia was more capable than this. IIRC I said ukraine wasn't going to make it thirty days, but then we all watched the big invasion stall and fail because russia apparently couldn't get their shit together logistically.
 
87manche said:
isn't that the whole point of fancy stealth aircraft?
to destroy air defenses so you can control the skies?
Wouldn't this be a good time to use them and some anti radiation missiles if you had them?
so you could establish air superiority and strike at will wherever you pleased?
We can all agree that's the goal right? That we've all seen that air power is a decisive means to achieve victory in the 20th century? Why would they not want that if it were within their grasp?
Just so they don't have to risk a few fancy aircraft? Ones that you say are in mass production right? Why build them if you can't afford to lose them?

surely you don't believe that simply tossing enough bodies at the problem to solve it is the best way to do warfare these days, and I doubt that the russians do either. Didn't putin announce the modernization a decade ago, a more professional army not reliant on conscripts with more advanced weaponry and modern tactics?
Where is it?
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It’s good agree and disagree. When this comes to an end Russia’s military will be more powerful and experienced. no one knows where the Russian Air Force is on this. They have been using mostly the Su-25 sort of like the old A-6. But they are being used more. Where are the newer fighters. no one knows. What are they capable of. No one knows. If their missiles can hit targets hundreds of miles away I would think that technology is also in those fighters. yes air superiority is a good thing but no offense has been launched these would not be in play.

as far as using stealth, that yet it to be proven against russias newer missile sytems or ours. In Syria from what macgregor has mentioned Russia is told when the planes are up. They have the newer radar and air defense system around the air base trump messed up. isreal refused to supply the iron dome system. The patriots are failing to take out drones in Saudi and they are running out of missiles, Russias though has taken down both drones and himars.

if Russia does start a major offense I’m sure there will be a lot of aircraft flying about.

thanks to this Ukraine mess I betting Russia is leaning a thing or two.
 
Historical note from my reading of many military war and history books before the internet. The acknowledged Soviet Union WWII Deaths were 25 million. About equally divided between military and civilian. Ever since, the number gets exaggerated and enlarged. Yes, many Ukrainians welcomed the German soldiers in 1941 with garlands of flowers as liberators. " With senseless brutality, the Germans mowed them down." is the quote I recall.
 
Redrider said:
It’s good agree and disagree. When this comes to an end Russia’s military will be more powerful and experienced. no one knows where the Russian Air Force is on this. They have been using mostly the Su-25 sort of like the old A-6. But they are being used more. Where are the newer fighters. no one knows. What are they capable of. No one knows. If their missiles can hit targets hundreds of miles away I would think that technology is also in those fighters. yes air superiority is a good thing but no offense has been launched these would not be in play.

as far as using stealth, that yet it to be proven against russias newer missile sytems or ours. In Syria from what macgregor has mentioned Russia is told when the planes are up. They have the newer radar and air defense system around the air base trump messed up. isreal refused to supply the iron dome system. The patriots are failing to take out drones in Saudi and they are running out of missiles, Russias though has taken down both drones and himars.

if Russia does start a major offense I’m sure there will be a lot of aircraft flying about.

thanks to this Ukraine mess I betting Russia is leaning a thing or two.
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I completely disagree with virtually everything in this post for the record. It's good to have open discussion, er debate so keep at it. :flipoff2:

The Youtube clown that was all over the news was certain the Ukraine was finished by the end of the winter. He was wrong and proven "faulty analysis" Was that Macgregor ?
 
On another note. I feel Putin is a lot smarter than ones to believe. Trump said it to europe don’t get hooked on Russian oil. Ok everyone one likes cheap oil. I don’t think Russia and China are chum buddies. More of a smile with a fuck you. Putin is going to get China hooked on Russian gas. Any disagreements and he pulls the tit out. We should get our debt in control and away from these endless wars we don’t know who will replace Putin and it may not be good And we should be ready For whatever that out come is.
 
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