Rapey Snap-On Tools

[Steve300xcw]

you sound like a great employee

 

[muddyrover]

you sound like a great employee

You ever try to keep a 635 MW power plant running with 2 gas turbines, a steam turbine, and a water plant making boiler feed from city sewage as the only instrument, control and electrical tech with tools bought by a warehouse stocker based off a generic list?

"Can't get you anything else unless they are broken"

Ok... BRB.

No time or patience to work with time wasting garbage. The fucking things had like 12 tooth ratchet and 6 points.

 

[Ranchtruck]

Am I just having bad luck with screwdrivers, specifically #2 Phillips?

I broke my Snap-On Phillips #2 screwdriver several time.

The last one I had it repaired on the tool truck, and it broke on the first screw I put it on. Sheared the tip clean off flush in the screw. It sit in my tool bag somewhere. I lost any faith in it.

I bought ICON's clone of Snap-On screwdriver set. So far so good....

Are you working on Japanese equipment perhaps? A JIS tip is a different depth than a Phillips. A JIS screwdriver will work fine on a Phillips screw but not the other way around. I've sheared a couple snap on Phillips on Subarus and Honda's.

 

[M92PV4U]

Am I just having bad luck with screwdrivers, specifically #2 Phillips?

I broke my Snap-On Phillips #2 screwdriver several time.

The last one I had it repaired on the tool truck, and it broke on the first screw I put it on. Sheared the tip clean off flush in the screw. It sit in my tool bag somewhere. I lost any faith in it.

Snap-On = Good tools, so I don't need these extra screwdrivers taking up space in my tool box "for in case" right?
I fumbled and had to get my extras (which are nearly exclusively cheap chinese) back to finish the job.

We had a couple like that too. But no problems since.

 

[M92PV4U]

 

[speed bump]

I have a gut feeling if you were to torque to spec a 2" or larger bolt with old school straight cut 6 point and un-torque with a snapon flank drive you may see a measurable difference with a quality digital torque meter... then repeat the reverse. You may see it on something smaller if the 6 point really sucks. Modern SO flank 6 and 12 should be nearly equal, with the 12 possibly a little better at getting the force farther towards the tip safely.

All the bigger turbine stuff I have worked on in recent years has been 12 point bolt, presumably for the same reason.

I have a feeling you didn't do so well in HS physics. Torque is force vector x distance, the socket type 0% matters as far as the application of force. Your torque is the center of the bolt to where your hand is on the device x how hard you are pushing.

12 point sockets used to be common because a 40 tooth ratchet was considered fine so you had double the clocking options. Now you have impact wrenches everywhere and 100 tooth ratchets, why would you want a socket with less contact area and a lower cross sectional area(which makes it torsionally weaker). Now the 12 pt does have an advantage versus non off-center engagement 6pt in that you have a smaller corner angle which lowers the stress concentration on the socket making it less likely to crack.

12 pt bolts exist due to space constraints. Take a 5/8" bolt. In hex it takes a 15/16" socket and that requires a ~1-3/8" of of total space. In 12 pt you use a 5/8" socket and make up the clamping force with a 15/16" diameter flange. Total area needed ~1".The 12 pt head gives you the surface contact area for torquing. It's also why low grade 12 pt bolts aren't common, because the first thing they would like to do is downsize the bolt and up the grade to deal with the clearance issue.

This did make me wonder exactly why the off center engagement design development started.

Was it to take the compressive shock load off the corners of the fastener, particularly with impacts?

Was it to lower the stress concentrations and reduce socket cracking?

Was it to make manufacturing easier and/or improve tool life on the broaches?

 

[M92PV4U]

This did make me wonder exactly why the off center engagement design development started.

Extended life of the fastener.

 

[TrailTamer]

Are you working on Japanese equipment perhaps? A JIS tip is a different depth than a Phillips. A JIS screwdriver will work fine on a Phillips screw but not the other way around. I've sheared a couple snap on Phillips on Subarus and Honda's.

No. Pretty sure I used it on a wood screw at home.

I wasn’t trying whatsoever… The tip broke off single handed.

 

[Levigarrett76]

“Just the tip”?

 

[muddyrover]

We're not talking about torque from the handle to the socket.... We're talking about the torque the socket puts on the bolt head and what is lost to friction due to side loading and other factors.

 

[TrailTamer]

We're not talking about torque from the handle to the socket.... We're talking about the torque the socket puts on the bolt head

 

[arse_sidewards]

Maybe I am saying it wrong…. But what it gets at is tight, poorly designed modern or old 6 points are bad, historic 12 point better, engineered not poorly copied flank drive 6 and 12 are better.

I'm gonna stick to hammering 12mm over 1/2 and 14 over 9/16

I still have the snapon screwdrivers I bought 20 years ago. I don’t use them as a punch or prybar. I have never broke one.

There's some ToyotaReliability factor at play there too.

Cost gives you an incentive not to abuse it.

 

[IowaOffRoad]

I'm gonna stick to hammering 12mm over 1/2 and 14 over 9/16

13mm, unless you’ve already done rounded it bad. 14mm doesn’t need hammered unless you have a super tight tolerance tool.

There's some ToyotaReliability factor at play there too.

Cost gives you an incentive not to abuse it.

Why? I abuse it, truck hands me a new one. Rinse/repeat. The reason to not abuse screwdrivers specifically is the truck isn’t there everyday and you’ll probably need that same one again before they show up. Unless you think you should have 3 of everything, which makes the cost of cheaper tools more in line with more expensive tools with a good warranty.

 

[speed bump]

We're not talking about torque from the handle to the socket.... We're talking about the torque the socket puts on the bolt head and what is lost to friction due to side loading and other factors.

Your equations address the friction in the threads and under the head. Nothing about the torquing device interaction with the bolt. Unless the engineer is getting paid by the government or doing fastener development work they will just use that K factor associated most generally with that fastener and finish and call it good.

Understanding the Nut Factor in Threaded-Fastener Torque-Tension Relationship

Engineers use a “nut factor” to relate a bolt’s installation torque to the tension on it. But they need to understand the friction-related variables that contribute to the nut...

www.machinedesign.com

 

[arse_sidewards]

13mm, unless you’ve already done rounded it bad. 14mm doesn’t need hammered unless you have a super tight tolerance tool.

You've got it backwards or you're not understanding.

Rusty 1/2 bolt gets a 12mm socket. Rusty 13mm gets a 1/2 socket. Rusty 9/16 gets 14mm.

Sometimes depending on how rusty you gotta go with 12pt to make a little bit more room for the "chip load"

 

[DMG]

I'm gonna stick to hammering 12mm over 1/2 and 14 over 9/16


There's some ToyotaReliability factor at play there too.

Cost gives you an incentive not to abuse it.

Maybe. I’m in the rust belt so I am pretty careful with fasteners. I want my screwdriver to be sharp so I only use them as screwdrivers. The largest flathead in the Snapon set is an awesome small prybar so I picked up a used one 20 years ago and have only broken it once or twice prying back calipers that turned out to be seized.


As for the Toyota reliability factor bullshit, my tundra got oil changes at 5-8k. I changed all the other fluids once in the last 100k I had it. I sold it at about 250k and still see it in town. My F150 gets much stricter maintenance because I want the cam phasers, etc to last. The previous owner was meticulous too. A lot of people neglect and abuse toyotas because they know they will take it.

 

[arse_sidewards]

I want my screwdriver to be sharp so I only use them as screwdrivers.

I don't

The largest flathead in the Snapon set is an awesome small prybar so I picked up a used one 20 years ago and have only broken it once or twice prying back calipers that turned out to be seized.

Pretty sure I have that one and that's exactly what I use it for, bought used, obviously.

As for the Toyota reliability factor bullshit, my tundra got oil changes at 5-8k. I changed all the other fluids once in the last 100k I had it. I sold it at about 250k and still see it in town. My F150 gets much stricter maintenance because I want the cam phasers, etc to last. The previous owner was meticulous too.

I meant more like the guy who can afford a $10k used Sienna can afford to be nice to things so you don't catch him piling bags of concrete in it at Home Depot like you see $1k Grand Caravan guy doing because "fuck it, it's a $1k Grand Caravan, something else will probably be what kills it".

And along those same lines you see a lot less people putting pipes on $40 ratchets than you do on $20 ratchets.



But regardless, it sounds like your fleet gets a lot more maintenance than the average Altima.

A lot of people neglect and abuse Toyotas because they know they will take it.

Those are the people who are having a rod exit the chat on the highway like that guy I posted 6mo ago or so.

I can't count the number of "runs great, knocks" mid 90s to early 00s Toyotas, Hondas and other reliable cars that are reliable because upscale people buy them and maintain them I encountered when shopping for a ~$1k shitbox.

The cost of buy-in keeps the ignorant and neglectful at bay at least through the first owners. But when the Altima crowd gets their hands on them they go through the accompanying decline just as fast as everything else does. I guess this factor doesn't apply to fancy tools because they do tend to perform the same regardless of who's using them.

 

[Steve300xcw]

that are reliable because upscale people buy them and maintain them I encountered when shopping for a ~$1k shitbox.

The cost of buy-in keeps the ignorant and neglectful at bay at least through the first owners.

This is pure comedy

 

[Steve300xcw]

There's some ToyotaReliability factor at play there too.

Cost gives you an incentive not to abuse it.

Also a very funny statement

 

[arse_sidewards]

This is pure comedy

Have you ever delivered a drive shaft to a Toyota dealership? Check out who's in the waiting room. It'll look a lot more like the people you see at the Mercedes or Land Rover dealer than the people you see in the service customer waiting room of the Nissan/Mitsu/Jeep/Kia dealer.

 

[DMG]

Have you ever delivered a drive shaft to a Toyota dealership? Check out who's in the waiting room. It'll look a lot more like the people you see at the Mercedes or Land Rover dealer than the people you see in the service customer waiting room of the Nissan/Mitsu/Jeep/Kia dealer.

The fact that you are classifying a lifestyle brand with nearly useless $100k vehicles in the same group with 2 special finance brands and a low-mid tier Korean maker makes me ask some questions. Is Arse on the Truman Show? Did he hit his head? Did he grow up in Sudan and just move to the US after only watching US sitcoms? How autistic is he?

 

[Steve300xcw]

Have you ever delivered a drive shaft to a Toyota dealership? Check out who's in the waiting room. It'll look a lot more like the people you see at the Mercedes or Land Rover dealer than the people you see in the service customer waiting room of the Nissan/Mitsu/Jeep/Kia dealer.

While I will give you credit, in that the original owners most likely are going to take better care of a rig than the 5th or 6th owner will. I'd say thats true for all rigs out there. Could be because they spent $45k+ on it, possibly because they are still making payments on the thing, or hell.....maybe because its got a warranty that will take care of all that shit

 

[arse_sidewards]

The fact that you are classifying a lifestyle brand with nearly useless $100k vehicles in the same group with 2 special finance brands and a low-mid tier Korean maker makes me ask some questions.

The comparison wasn't about the brand, it was about the people and how they treat things. For example you don't see a lot of people letting their kids trash a Land Rover or if they do they have that shit detailed because they don't wanna be seen rolling around in filth.

Ain't no different than saying you have more in common with some deadbeat janitor than you do with some CEO and that some slimy enterprise salesman has more in common with the CEO than you or the janitor.

 

[DMG]

The comparison wasn't about the brand, it was about the people and how they treat things. For example you don't see a lot of people letting their kids trash a Land Rover or if they do they have that shit detailed because they don't wanna be seen rolling around in filth.

Ain't no different than saying you have more in common with some deadbeat janitor than you do with some CEO and that some slimy enterprise salesman has more in common with the CEO than you or the janitor.

Land Rovers get trashed all the time. You should see some that I have worked on. Half or more are leased and the owner doesn’t plan on keeping it. Also, their value drops to Honda crv levels after the warranty expires and the second owner is usually an idiot.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Also, their value drops to Honda crv levels after the warranty expires and the second owner is usually an idiot.

Yeah I believe that. As soon as I said Land Rover I knew I should have picked something with a different depreciation curve but I was committed at that point.

Nothing speed runs the economic ladder quite as fast as a Land Rover.

 

[DWT]

Land Rovers get trashed all the time. You should see some that I have worked on. Half or more are leased and the owner doesn’t plan on keeping it. Also, their value drops to Honda crv levels after the warranty expires and the second owner is usually an idiot.

You can tell they're an idiot because they bought a Rover out of warranty.

 

[barrelroll]

Maybe. I’m in the rust belt so I am pretty careful with fasteners. I want my screwdriver to be sharp so I only use them as screwdrivers. The largest flathead in the Snapon set is an awesome small prybar so I picked up a used one 20 years ago and have only broken it once or twice prying back calipers that turned out to be seized.

blahbahablah asrse on another tangent...

If you don't have any straight pry bars check them out. I bought a set of the snapon straight pry bars a while back and use them as punches, chisels, pry bars, and even as a flat head screw driver occasionally. 1 side is flat, the other is tapered. I use them all the time for splitting/ prying things you would usually a screw driver for. I think I've broken the tip off of 1 in 2 years.

 

[DMG]

If you don't have any straight pry bars check them out. I bought a set of the snapon straight pry bars a while back and use them as punches, chisels, pry bars, and even as a flat head screw driver occasionally. 1 side is flat, the other is tapered. I use them all the time for splitting/ prying things you would usually a screw driver for. I think I've broken the tip off of 1 in 2 years.

I have those and they are great but mine is the prior version when they first put the striking cap on them

The big screwdriver has a smaller tip so it gets in the opening of a brake caliper nicely, among other places.

 

[[486]]

I have those and they are great but mine is the prior version when they first put the striking cap on them

same, mine are the good screwdriver handle looking ones, not the shitty dildo handle looking ones

all of mine have split handles from the plastic shrinking, yours?

 

[DMG]

same, mine are the good screwdriver handle looking ones, not the shitty dildo handle looking ones

all of mine have split handles from the plastic shrinking, yours?

No but there was a bad run of them a while back.