Rapey Snap-On Tools

[arse_sidewards]

By using better materials, some tool companies make a socket or wrench that fits in tight places and is strong.

How often do you actually run into the head of a wrench or wall of a socket being the limiting factor? Other than some specific cases (pretty sure 486 has a rant about VW water pumps or some shit that's like this) it's basically pinion nuts only. Sure you might get a few more degrees with a more slender wrench and be able to go faster because sometimes that'll save you from having to flip the wrench or let you get an extra 1/12th of a turn with the box end but the frequency with that happens is so low it doesn't amount to a consequential difference IMO.

The only day to day difference I see with the "nice" sockets and wrenches (beyond luxury shit like knurling and external finish) is that they cut the bevels better so you've got a slightly wider range of "yeah this will work" angles you can use it at compared to the cheap stuff. Maybe it's because I'm not subject to the flat rate culture of rushing everything or because rust has made me too conservative when it comes to risking stripping something but I basically never feel the pressure to do the kinds of shit where that differences matters.

I wish someone would make a set of double box wrenches with basically no bevel so that they can't fit on at dumb angles removing the temptation to ever do that stuff while also halving the number of them I need to carry for a given spread of sizes. I guess I could just cut and weld a $30 Chinese set.

Other than some really, really, really shit tier garbage I picked up in small amounts over the years in order to do dumb shit like fix a mower or assemble furniture somewhere I hadn't brought tools I simply don't encounter that many situations where the slight marginal gain you get from paying a couple times more would matter and when I do encounter them it can almost always be solved by backing off and going at it with something else or some other tool.

It’s easy to throw more low quality metal at something. Btw, I consider Sunex impact sockets to be as good as Snapon or anyone. Unless they have gone to shit in the 20 years since I bought them. Snapon excels at making wrenches, ratchets and screwdrivers. As well as special tools.

Btw, cheaper sockets get belled out at the end so they can’t grip a bolt well enough to break. They just spin on it. It has happened with every brand of chrome socket I have used.

I don't even use chrome except the 12pt shit that comes in the generic 1/4+3/8 kits I throw in vehicles or if I specifically need a 12pt (in which case quality almost doesn't matter since you have so much grip area).


The quality difference between impact sockets seems to be way narrower than with chrome. Paying more mostly seems to get you

It takes much longer with tool truck brands and SK.

Being harder probably results in more spectacular failures when you use them with an impact. I've scattered enough chrome sockets that I don't really like that tradeoff for how little I use chrome.

 

[arse_sidewards]

is that your sister holding the socket? Does she work in an office? Tits or GTFO!

If you had an IQ above room temperature you could work in an office too.

Speaking of room temperature, it's gonna be 93 today and it's gonna be 72 all day in here.

Sucks to suck.

 

[arse_sidewards]

This is not true. There are pretty massive variations in the strength and deflection of different steels. Heat treatment is a huge factor, too.

You're confusing plastic and elastic deformation. Steels are in a pretty narrow range when it comes to elastic deformation. I used to really understand this shit years ago but forgot all the details because "they all deform about the same but break differently" is the TL;DR of it.

Yeah, hardness matters but when it comes to shit like sockets and wrenches they're all so much harder than the bolts that I don't think it really matters for them in practice. Sure does for jaws though.

 

[M92PV4U]

If you had an IQ above room temperature you could work in an office too.

Speaking of room temperature, it's gonna be 93 today and it's gonna be 72 all day in here.

Sucks to suck.

 

[IowaOffRoad]

I'll try to remember to pick up some Snap On next time I go to the local used tool place so I can compare wrench stretch vs craftsman, 00s China, 2020s China and 2010s HF. I'd be real fucking surprised if it doesn't just come down to how chunky the wrenches are. Deflection is what rounds shit and basically all steels deflect the same amount when subject to the same forces, it's just a question of hardness and breaking shit vs flexing back.

Sockets are a red herring. Nobody ever breaks them except when doing knowingly stupid shit like using a big impact on a small chrome. Heck, my turned down 1-1/8" pinion and yoke socket only ever sees stupid shit from the 1" gun these days and is still going, granted it was an impact socket to begin with.

Even the cheapest of the cheap 6pt socket have had flank drive since forever.

Literally the only way to miss out on it is to be a massive retard who goes off chest thumping about domestic tools and pick up a set of 1960s tools that predate it. Serves the fuckers right.

Forgot to take a picture of my HF's or my Amazon specials last nigh so here's a 10mm from a Walmart generic auto tool kit that's in my "interestingly broken shit" collection for not having a proper 3/8 square on the back end.

 

[muddyrover]

If you had an IQ above room temperature you could work in an office too.

Speaking of room temperature, it's gonna be 93 today and it's gonna be 72 all day in here.

Sucks to suck.

Traded in my toolbelt a while ago…. Technical Trainer for a Utility.

I do consider myself a pretty good bullshitter, but occasionally I like to listen to a professional. So please carry on.


Can you get a picture of your sister grasping a 1 1/4” deep well… Snap-On preferably.

 

[IowaOffRoad]

If you had an IQ above room temperature you could work in an office too.

Speaking of room temperature, it's gonna be 93 today and it's gonna be 72 all day in here.

Sucks to suck.

The 27k/yr secretary who can’t transfer calls correctly works in a climate controlled office too, so perhaps there’s not the separation you think there is

 

[IowaOffRoad]

You're confusing plastic and elastic deformation. Steels are in a pretty narrow range when it comes to elastic deformation. I used to really understand this shit years ago but forgot all the details because "they all deform about the same but break differently" is the TL;DR of it.

Yeah, hardness matters but when it comes to shit like sockets and wrenches they're all so much harder than the bolts that I don't think it really matters for them in practice. Sure does for jaws though.

Balancing hardness while maintaining tensile strength matters. The better tools do a better job and are willing to pony up for the alloys to achieve it.
There’s no argument of what works for you and your situations, but there’s much empirical and anecdotal evidence for your arguments that there’s no value in using “better” tools to be invalidated. You don’t need the upgrade in quality apparently, but others do.

 

[DMG]

If you had an IQ above room temperature you could work in an office too.

Speaking of room temperature, it's gonna be 93 today and it's gonna be 72 all day in here.

Sucks to suck.

We all make choices and compromises in our lives. I make significantly more money than most of my office worker friends. And if I cared that much about heat I would wear shorts.

 

[TrailTamer]

Balancing hardness while maintaining tensile strength matters. The better tools do a better job and are willing to pony up for the alloys to achieve it.

It’s not all in the alloy.

Let’s not forget toughness. Nobody likes an exploding socket.

Heat treatment done right can give you greater tensile strength, hardness and toughness.

And yes, better tools are ones who pony up for alloys selection and heat treatment process. And the design of the tool of course along with stringent quality control.

 

[DMG]

How often do you actually run into the head of a wrench or wall of a socket being the limiting factor? Other than some specific cases (pretty sure 486 has a rant about VW water pumps or some shit that's like this) it's basically pinion nuts only. Sure you might get a few more degrees with a more slender wrench and be able to go faster because sometimes that'll save you from having to flip the wrench or let you get an extra 1/12th of a turn with the box end but the frequency with that happens is so low it doesn't amount to a consequential difference IMO.

The only day to day difference I see with the "nice" sockets and wrenches (beyond luxury shit like knurling and external finish) is that they cut the bevels better so you've got a slightly wider range of "yeah this will work" angles you can use it at compared to the cheap stuff. Maybe it's because I'm not subject to the flat rate culture of rushing everything or because rust has made me too conservative when it comes to risking stripping something but I basically never feel the pressure to do the kinds of shit where that differences matters.

I wish someone would make a set of double box wrenches with basically no bevel so that they can't fit on at dumb angles removing the temptation to ever do that stuff while also halving the number of them I need to carry for a given spread of sizes. I guess I could just cut and weld a $30 Chinese set.

Other than some really, really, really shit tier garbage I picked up in small amounts over the years in order to do dumb shit like fix a mower or assemble furniture somewhere I hadn't brought tools I simply don't encounter that many situations where the slight marginal gain you get from paying a couple times more would matter and when I do encounter them it can almost always be solved by backing off and going at it with something else or some other tool.


I don't even use chrome except the 12pt shit that comes in the generic 1/4+3/8 kits I throw in vehicles or if I specifically need a 12pt (in which case quality almost doesn't matter since you have so much grip area).


The quality difference between impact sockets seems to be way narrower than with chrome. Paying more mostly seems to get you


Being harder probably results in more spectacular failures when you use them with an impact. I've scattered enough chrome sockets that I don't really like that tradeoff for how little I use chrome.

Better steel can be harder and have adequate elasticity. I mostly use snapon 3/8 semi deep impact sockets as I can use them on anything. I won’t put a chrome socket on an impact anymore.


I pretty regularly run into situations where a thicker socket won’t fit, btw.

I think we aren’t understanding each other because I use the tools for 10 hours a day 4-5 days a week and you are a more casual user. Expensive tools are worth it when you bought them 25 years ago, too. Since you care enough to discuss it, I think you might like some snapon stuff, specifically screwdrivers, ratchets and wrenches.

 

[muddyrover]

It’s not all in the alloy.

Let’s not forget toughness. Nobody likes an exploding socket.

Heat treatment done right can give you greater tensile strength, hardness and toughness.

And yes, better tools are ones who pony up for alloys selection and heat treatment process. And the design of the tool of course along with stringent quality control.

I have one HF deep well socket in 21 mm that I had to get on the road in an emergency. That thing scares me it’s so hard. I’d rather not put bits of that through my belly.

Out of the various impacts sockets I have the snap-on wear the fastest on the drive end… by design. No issue swapping them out swapped the whole deep well see set once, even though some odd saw sizes were barely used. I think I paid $100 for that set second hand 20 years ago.

Before SK went to china , they were probably the best bang for your buck in impacts. I have several sets of those.


And… thick chrome sockets suck no matter the brand. Many times the thickness is the limiting factor to get on a fastener on things work on. Heck I even have a set off snap on 3/8 sae 12 point sockets I use when the 6 points are too thick.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Now that I think about it, the one thing I don't like about my HF and random amazon sockets is that they don't use the biggest through hole they possible can for a given size or at least one big enough to accommodate a typical threaded fastner for that nut size.

Of course the expensive shit doesn't do that either so it's a wash.

<channels his inner linkslide>

Remember in the Youtube thread where people were bitching about low effort idiots just regurgiating shit everybody already knows? Yeah well you just did that.

The project farm video is everything we already know. Tighter fit and shorter bevel on the box end = more torque. More meat on the open end = more torque. It's a shame he only got "name brand" cheap wrenches because they're all still trying to emulate "nice" wrenches on the box end and suck at it whereas the shameless low end importers actually make nicer wrenches from a functional perspective now (I'll post up tonight and compare to Pittsburgh and the like)

That AvE video is basically the video version of this thread.

10sec about heat treat, which is a legitimate argument though not as relevant in the era of lifetime warranties and then 7min bitching about lack of luxury features

"hurr durr the laser etching is cheap"

"hurr durr the bolt falls in"

The difference just ain't worth it to me, or anyone who's objective is to have the most expansive tool set within a given budget.

I didn't watch the 3rd video because I don't care

 

[arse_sidewards]

The better tools do a better job and are willing to pony up for the alloys to achieve it.

Not better enough that I'd rather be fucking around using the wrong tool from a fancy brand than have the right tool from the wrong brand.

but there’s much empirical and anecdotal evidence for your arguments that there’s no value in using “better” tools to be invalidated.

Only in the most "politician who's good enough with language to never get cauight in a lie" sort of way.

Sure, there are situations where you gotta pull out the stops and send the best. Nobody is sending cheap stuff to space or to BFE Antarctica.

But the average Strap-On worshiping fanboy isn't in one of those situations where a blanket policy of buying a fancy brand by default makes any sort of sense and they use all sorts of rhetorical tricks to imply that the occasional cases where it does make sense

You don't hear me shitting on fancy snap ring pliers and picks. There is legitimacy to some of the stuff that gets used in situations where metallurgy really, really matters. Sockets and wrenches ain't it for the most part.

I think we aren’t understanding each other because I use the tools for 10 hours a day 4-5 days a week and you are a more casual user. Expensive tools are worth it when you bought them 25 years ago, too. Since you care enough to discuss it, I think you might like some snapon stuff, specifically screwdrivers, ratchets and wrenches.

I get that you're gonna put a whole lot more wear and tear on everything and you're gonna encounter the dumb "need a thin wall" situations more often because you're doing more and that sometimes only the fancy brand makes a tool that's the right size and shape to make a job quick but for the bog standard stuff, sockets and wrenches I just don't see the value. It's so vanishingly rare that you have problems with those tools where better quality would have given you an appreciably better shot. Usually those situations are better solved with an entirely different approach.

I don't have a problem paying more in order to get a categorically different tool, something that has different use cases. The way I see it I'm not willing to pay for nebulous "quality". I am willing to pay for specific features that make it fit for a purpose. "well it probably wears out a little slower" and the other usual pros people list for high end brands doesn't fall into that category.

Like for example, last week I did spark plugs on a marine 351w. Exhaust casting prevents anything but some sort of wrench on the plugs and I knew they were gonna be real crusty. Open ended wrench would obviously be laughable as would a sloppy 12pt box. A real nice tight fitting box could do but a 6pt box, regardless of brand was the hot ticket at least as far as breaking them loose goes. I bought a sub-$10 China special 6pt specifically for that job. Maybe I could have made do with my 12pts since they're pretty damn tight. If that wasn't an option I'd have been forced to risk it with the 12pt. But the 6pt box isn't a replacement for the 12pt box because a lot of times you need to work in 1/12th of a turn instead of 1/6th.

I don't doubt I'd "like" some of the fancy stuff but I've used it here and there over the years, have a fair number of odds and ends in my collection but I just don't feel limited by tool quality at this point. I've got enough variety and techniques that I don't have issues. I might buy some high end picks or flatheads (so i can better use them as mini-pry bars) but I can't imagine what I'd use them for beyond snap ring type fuckery. Once again, I think it's fundamentally a somewhat different tool. I've got flatheads and picks but they're not apropriate for those types of tasks but as stated earlier the fact that they're flimsy keeps me from using them from things where I'd really fuck things up so that's kind of a feature itself.

Some little flex head 1/4 I'd pay $20-25 for if I could be assured it could really take some abuse and had a really short throw per tooth. I'm not gonna pay $40 for an equivalent 1/2 though since the larger the size the less likely you are to be doing the sort of space constrained stuff where you need a ton of teeth and maximum durability in a small package.

 

[Steve300xcw]

You sure care a lot about tools that you dont care about

 

[muddyrover]

Not better enough that I'd rather be fucking around using the wrong tool from a fancy brand than have the right tool from the wrong brand.


Only in the most "politician who's good enough with language to never get cauight in a lie" sort of way.

Sure, there are situations where you gotta pull out the stops and send the best. Nobody is sending cheap stuff to space or to BFE Antarctica.

But the average Strap-On worshiping fanboy isn't in one of those situations where a blanket policy of buying a fancy brand by default makes any sort of sense and they use all sorts of rhetorical tricks to imply that the occasional cases where it does make sense

You don't hear me shitting on fancy snap ring pliers and picks. There is legitimacy to some of the stuff that gets used in situations where metallurgy really, really matters. Sockets and wrenches ain't it for the most part.



I get that you're gonna put a whole lot more wear and tear on everything and you're gonna encounter the dumb "need a thin wall" situations more often because you're doing more and that sometimes only the fancy brand makes a tool that's the right size and shape to make a job quick but for the bog standard stuff, sockets and wrenches I just don't see the value. It's so vanishingly rare that you have problems with those tools where better quality would have given you an appreciably better shot. Usually those situations are better solved with an entirely different approach.

I don't have a problem paying more in order to get a categorically different tool, something that has different use cases. The way I see it I'm not willing to pay for nebulous "quality". I am willing to pay for specific features that make it fit for a purpose. "well it probably wears out a little slower" and the other usual pros people list for high end brands doesn't fall into that category.

Like for example, last week I did spark plugs on a marine 351w. Exhaust casting prevents anything but some sort of wrench on the plugs and I knew they were gonna be real crusty. Open ended wrench would obviously be laughable as would a sloppy 12pt box. A real nice tight fitting box could do but a 6pt box, regardless of brand was the hot ticket at least as far as breaking them loose goes. I bought a sub-$10 China special 6pt specifically for that job. Maybe I could have made do with my 12pts since they're pretty damn tight. If that wasn't an option I'd have been forced to risk it with the 12pt. But the 6pt box isn't a replacement for the 12pt box because a lot of times you need to work in 1/12th of a turn instead of 1/6th.

I don't doubt I'd "like" some of the fancy stuff but I've used it here and there over the years, have a fair number of odds and ends in my collection but I just don't feel limited by tool quality at this point. I've got enough variety and techniques that I don't have issues. I might buy some high end picks or flatheads (so i can better use them as mini-pry bars) but I can't imagine what I'd use them for beyond snap ring type fuckery. Once again, I think it's fundamentally a somewhat different tool. I've got flatheads and picks but they're not apropriate for those types of tasks but as stated earlier the fact that they're flimsy keeps me from using them from things where I'd really fuck things up so that's kind of a feature itself.

Some little flex head 1/4 I'd pay $20-25 for if I could be assured it could really take some abuse and had a really short throw per tooth. I'm not gonna pay $40 for an equivalent 1/2 though since the larger the size the less likely you are to be doing the sort of space constrained stuff where you need a ton of teeth and maximum durability in a small package.

Just so you know….. a quality 12 point will apply more force in a straighter vector than a 6 point. The Nuclear Navy taught the benefits of 12 point. Is it a benefit on rusted as fuck Northeast cars that you have to beat on sockets? …. No. But on quality fasteners with high torque there is less chance of breaking a bolt with 12 point because less torque needs to be applied to loosen the fastener due to the straighter vector of force farther from the centerline.

 

[DMG]

Just so you know….. a quality 12 point will apply more force in a straighter vector than a 6 point. The Nuclear Navy taught the benefits of 12 point. Is it a benefit on rusted as fuck Northeast cars that you have to beat on sockets? …. No. But on quality fasteners with high torque there is less chance of breaking a bolt with 12 point because less torque needs to be applied to loosen the fastener due to the straighter vector of force farther from the centerline.

How does that effect using one on a click type torque wrench?

 

[muddyrover]

I have seen no engineering studies regarding differences in torque specs 12 vs. 6 pt but have seen studies and done jobs where torque was added for extensions.

I would assume any variance would be taken up by the calibration accuracy of the wrench no matter the type, but they were more concerned with side loading breaking fasteners on removal in the context that it was taught.

I would imagine 6pt flank drive was developed partially because of this, and has been stolen by other companies with random success over the years. There is more to a wrench than a tight fit.

 

[DMG]

Just so you know….. a quality 12 point will apply more force in a straighter vector than a 6 point. The Nuclear Navy taught the benefits of 12 point. Is it a benefit on rusted as fuck Northeast cars that you have to beat on sockets? …. No. But on quality fasteners with high torque there is less chance of breaking a bolt with 12 point because less torque needs to be applied to loosen the fastener due to the straighter vector of force farther from the centerline.

I have seen no engineering studies regarding differences in torque specs 12 vs. 6 pt but have seen studies adding torque for extensions.

I would assume any variance would be taken up by the calibration accuracy of the wrench no matter the type, but they were more concerned with side loading breaking fasteners on removal in the context that it was taught.

These seem to be contradictory statements. If less torque needs to be applied to loosen, then less torque will tighten, too. The difference may be negligible but then the benefit would be too.

As for extensions, some tool makers use shorter sections of rod friction welded together to take springiness out of their extensions. I bet those don’t effect a torque wrench as much. I really avoid having anything between the wrench and socket when I am torquing stuff anyway.

 

[DMG]

You sure care a lot about tools that you dont care about

You know how dealer techs complain about tool prices (but still buy them)? Arse is so cheap that he complains about the price of tools that other people buy

 

[muddyrover]

These seem to be contradictory statements. If less torque needs to be applied to loosen, then less torque will tighten, too. The difference may be negligible but then the benefit would be too.

As for extensions, some tool makers use shorter sections of rod friction welded together to take springiness out of their extensions. I bet those don’t affect a torque wrench as much. I really avoid having anything between the wrench and socket when I am torquing stuff anyway.

Except there is no torque spec for loosening…..

 

[DMG]

Except there is no torque spec for loosening…..

Applying torque is applying torque. If it reduces torque required to loosen, it should reduce torque required to tighten.

Unless something is being lost in the translation.

 

[arse_sidewards]

These seem to be contradictory statements. If less torque needs to be applied to loosen, then less torque will tighten, too. The difference may be negligible but then the benefit would be too.

Yeah, I'm intrigued but not sure I buy it. Maybe he's just explaining it wrong and is trying to say that 12pt results in less PSI on the points of contact with the bolt for a given torque

As for extensions, some tool makers use shorter sections of rod friction welded together to take springiness out of their extensions. I bet those don’t effect a torque wrench as much. I really avoid having anything between the wrench and socket when I am torquing stuff anyway.

You should be able to use the longest floppiest extension and it shouldn't affect torque as seen by the fastener, just the amount of wind-up it takes to get there (impacts are a very different story, obviously).

You apply X to the wrench. The extension resists the wrench. The thing below the extension resists that.

 

[muddyrover]

Stiction

 

[M92PV4U]

impacts are a very different story, obviously

You need to figure out how to pre load the extension.

 

[arse_sidewards]

You need to figure out how to pre load the extension.

Drop a bolt in the vise. Drop a socket on the bolt. Drop an extension in the socket. Drop a pipe that's a hair shorter than the extension over the extension. Torque the shit out of it. Weld the pipe to the extension at both ends. Release torque and enjoy your absurd pre-tensioned extension that's wider than than a comparable extension of the next size up.

 

[M92PV4U]

Drop a bolt in the vise. Drop a socket on the bolt. Drop an extension in the socket. Drop a pipe that's a hair shorter than the extension over the extension. Torque the shit out of it. Weld the pipe to the extension at both ends. Release torque and enjoy your absurd pre-tensioned extension that's wider than than a comparable extension of the next size up.

I was thinking twist it with a pipe wrench then hit it with the impact. Or just use the pipe wrench

 

[arse_sidewards]

I was thinking twist it with a pipe wrench then hit it with the impact. Or just use the pipe wrench

I thought you meant make a preloaded extension.

I'm surprised nobody makes large diameter hollow extensions for torquing stuff with minimal wind up. Would be a simple case of friction welding shit into tube since you don't really need good springy axle shaft metallurgy out near the OD

Edit: Just make the fucking thing out of some thick-ish wall and swage one end to male and one to female in the size you need.

 

[M92PV4U]

I thought you meant make a preloaded extension.

I'm surprised nobody makes large diameter hollow extensions for torquing stuff with minimal wind up. Would be a simple case of friction welding shit into tube since you don't really need good springy axle shaft metallurgy out near the OD

Edit: Just make the fucking thing out of some thick-ish wall and swage one end to male and one to female in the size you need.

Tubes are more resistant to windup than solid shafts?

 

[gunracer1]

Tubes are more resistant to windup than solid shafts?

pound for pound yes.