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Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

Provience said:
Gear drag losses and the power they take plus the awesome destruction when they fail
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I'd trade drag loss for the safety of not being exposed to the elements.
If they fail...

Well, they fail :laughing:
 
Bebop said:
I'd trade drag loss for the safety of not being exposed to the elements.
If they fail...

Well, they fail :laughing:
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They all fail :flipoff2:

How cheap and fast can you replace them vs how fast can you identify and shut down when they go is a big tradeoff that belts have a good advantage.


See those stupid sxs cv transmission and other low strength lightweight stuff. Shit a belt, no big deal. Swap it mid race vs. Shit a planetary gear and good fuckin luck getting back into the mix.

Idiots lights on dash for oil pressure tell you the belt is dead. Bearing don't die in 5 min of no oil pressure, plenty of time to shut it down and rebuild later for the cost of bearings and cleaning
 
Provience said:
Idiots lights on dash for oil pressure tell you the belt is dead. Bearing don't die in 5 min of no oil pressure, plenty of time to shut it down and rebuild later for the cost of bearings and cleaning
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What did I just read ???
Bearings will wipe out in a matter of second if you cut oil supply to a racing engine at speed.
 
RustyC said:
I am glad to hear this feedback as I am setting on a 6L80 / 205 combo now. I installed a GM32 spline input into the Ford case. I do need it clocked up a few degrees. I am considering redrilling a pattern in the 205. Not sure if there is enough meat for the threads.

Other than the logging what is the advantage of the Holley system vs an OEM E38?
I have HP tuners and have use Android devices to monitor my gen 3 stuff now.
I can change parameters and log using HP just a little more clumsy with the laptop?

I would really like a gen3 DBC / 6L80 combo but that requires OEM Gm plus ZeroGravity or Holley.
Things get costly vs just going Gen4 DBW and HP tuners.
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I enlongated a hole or two in the stock 6l80 adapter, installed studs in the 205 and bolted it together. It has been like that for 9 years. I do have a support under the trans mount and one on the back of the 205 to support it all. 205 sits almost flat. Ford 205 with 32 spline input. billet retainers are a must.
 
having safety setting in efi prevents engine damage.

my holley efi just cuts ignition after sensor value is active for set time


picture.png
 
Bebop said:
What did I just read ???
Bearings will wipe out in a matter of second if you cut oil supply to a racing engine at speed.
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Yeah, bearing can die quick. However they won't guarantee that you shit the block if you can get it shut down quickly

If you are real concerned, wire oil pressure light into ignition, with a bypass during cranking.

However, I'll trade instant shutdown for loss of pressure for not having the fucker cut off at speed.

I promise you wet sump U4 cars are experiencing plenty of "seconds" with no oil pressure [climb/drop/roll/etc] and recovering just fine. I'm not saying to live on it with no oil, but it isn't instant catastrophic
 
Bebop said:
What did I just read ???
Bearings will wipe out in a matter of second if you cut oil supply to a racing engine at speed.
Click to expand...
Steve Morris' personal race car ran 2.5 licks on no oil pressure, only spun one main bearing after they realized what happened. Though I'm sure those sorts of instances are exceptions and not the rule.
 
Provience said:
They all fail :flipoff2:

How cheap and fast can you replace them vs how fast can you identify and shut down when they go is a big tradeoff that belts have a good advantage.


See those stupid sxs cv transmission and other low strength lightweight stuff. Shit a belt, no big deal. Swap it mid race vs. Shit a planetary gear and good fuckin luck getting back into the mix.

Idiots lights on dash for oil pressure tell you the belt is dead. Bearing don't die in 5 min of no oil pressure, plenty of time to shut it down and rebuild later for the cost of bearings and cleaning
Click to expand...
LS’s spin bearings in a second of low oil pressure, not just no oil pressure. Top end priority oiling (OE engines) guarantees it. And when a CVT shits a belt you just lose drive. Doesn’t really take out other things, let alone important things.
 
Provience said:
Yeah, bearing can die quick. However they won't guarantee that you shit the block if you can get it shut down quickly

If you are real concerned, wire oil pressure light into ignition, with a bypass during cranking.

However, I'll trade instant shutdown for loss of pressure for not having the fucker cut off at speed.

I promise you wet sump U4 cars are experiencing plenty of "seconds" with no oil pressure [climb/drop/roll/etc] and recovering just fine. I'm not saying to live on it with no oil, but it isn't instant catastrophic
Click to expand...
You talk like someone who runs a carb and a shitty oil system.

I have an aftermarket EFI ECU that lets me datalog sensors, a baffled oil pan and an accumulator.

I have never seen oil pressure drop below 20psi at any moment. Even during a rollover or a high speed run.

ECU also lets me setup safeties like TimJus has posted above, and it has never triggered anything because of oil pressure.

Provience said:
Can you set a rpm limiter with this? Oil pressure below 3psi = 2.5k max rpm vs total shutoff would be nice
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Of course
 
Mr Priceless said:
Steve Morris' personal race car ran 2.5 licks on no oil pressure, only spun one main bearing after they realized what happened. Though I'm sure those sorts of instances are exceptions and not the rule.
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Poolvoorde lost one not too long ago IIRC
 
JR4X said:
LS’s spin bearings in a second of low oil pressure, not just no oil pressure. Top end priority oiling (OE engines) guarantees it. And when a CVT shits a belt you just lose drive. Doesn’t really take out other things, let alone important things.
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Cvt comparison was belt drive transmission vs gear drive transmission

6L80 also only losses drive just like a cvt but you aren't fixing the gear train as fast or cheap as the belt, sure you shit more belts.

While I'm not sold on the LS spin a bearing at first sight of low pressure, rather than repeated abuse, we've already decided that LS isn't the platform of choice for U4 future tech development, so it doesn't matter.

Gear train for cam and external pumps and multiple accessories etc means it will be rock solid, and when an idler fails it will likely eat the block, the camshaft and crankshaft snouts and require far more new parts and time.

Compare that to losing a serpentine belt or cog belt or 3 row v belt, whatever you want, and at absolute worst case if you get it shut down in 30 seconds [a likely reasonable time as yall didn't like my 5 minutes of bearing failure before irreparable damage example :flipoff2: ] you are looking at most to replace cam and Crank bearings and belts. If she isn't making noise, then just toss belts and go.

Couple hundred bucks and a few hours versus $10-40k and just as many hours.


That's all I've got for counter point to the "so what" of going all gear :rasta: somebody should do it because it would be cool as fuck to hear/see ripping around and it's less likely to go out than an axle anyways :smokin:
 
Bebop said:
You talk like someone who runs a carb and a shitty oil system.

I have an aftermarket EFI ECU that lets me datalog sensors, a baffled oil pan and an accumulator.

I have never seen oil pressure drop below 20psi at any moment. Even during a rollover or a high speed run.

ECU also lets me setup safeties like TimJus has posted above, and it has never triggered anything because of oil pressure.


Of course
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I do run a carb and a shitty oil system, that's how I know you won't die if you drop oil pressure :flipoff2:

If you aren't having issues, no need for a dry sump or a different style drive for your pump. No problem means no problem, it's that simple. I also see thr value in rebuilding engines and replacing wear items like bearings instead of plugging in entire new engines


You sound like someone who has done too much reading and spent too much money to believe that things work when shit goes bad :flipoff2:
 
so you all realize the golf cart that nearly blew up the internet is a 3 cylinder 200hp power plant right? :flipoff2:

So if the golf cart weighs 1800 with 200 hp 400 hp should work just fine for a 3600# car.

Still has to be in the relam of affordable-ish for someone to try it out. There is a reason there is only one LaserNut running.
 
Weasel said:
so you all realize the golf cart that nearly blew up the internet is a 3 cylinder 200hp power plant right? :flipoff2:

So if the golf cart weighs 1800 with 200 hp 400 hp should work just fine for a 3600# car.

Still has to be in the relam of affordable-ish for someone to try it out. There is a reason there is only one LaserNut
Click to expand...

If you are going for a top 20 finish, I agree with you. Bypassing trails that might give you trouble is a great strategy regardless of penalty time :flipoff2:
 
Provience said:
I love everything about that car and just want it to be on top at the end of the day.

Was telling the wife that's it's kind of surprising how many years it's been since it debuted. Trail hero v1.0....that was the last time I went rock crawling in my own rig :laughing: 😢
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imho by the time they get the bugs worked out of that chassis it will be very old technology.
 
Weasel said:
so you all realize the golf cart that nearly blew up the internet is a 3 cylinder 200hp power plant right?
Click to expand...

you realize he did as well as he did because a whole slew of fast people broke right?

its racing and he had his moment, but to think hell be able to hang every year is insanity.


ooh and skipping trails (yes plural) in multiple races (yes plural) is bush league, he should have been DQ’d for both.
 
Isdtbower said:
www.emp-corp.com

Dual Stage - EMP

The OP3530 pump is a 2-stage positive displacement gear pump featuring a brushless DC motor and integrated motor drive controller.
www.emp-corp.com www.emp-corp.com
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About $700 to 900 on Ebay from prototype Electric vehicles. 12v. I could not find real specs....but didn't look hard.
www.ebay.com

EMP Dual Stage Oil Pump OP3530 Smart Flow From EV Prototype Made In USA | eBay

The specs changed and so these units were pulled before they were sold. This unit was hooked up but likely not run or used further than basic testing. As such it is being sold as New (other).
www.ebay.com
 
Weasel said:
so you all realize the golf cart that nearly blew up the internet is a 3 cylinder 200hp power plant right? :flipoff2:

So if the golf cart weighs 1800 with 200 hp 400 hp should work just fine for a 3600# car.

Still has to be in the relam of affordable-ish for someone to try it out. There is a reason there is only one LaserNut running.
Click to expand...

No it's not

200hp is stock

Most people say Chainey and the hunter (Miller :flipoff2:) brothers are in the 500hp range.

You're also on crack thinking those guys are 1800 lbs, again that's stock wieght. With all the reinforcement, spares, tools, nav, ect. I'd be surprised if they were much under, if at all, 3k lbs.
 
Isdtbower said:
About $700 to 900 on Ebay from prototype Electric vehicles. 12v. I could not find real specs....but didn't look hard.
www.ebay.com

EMP Dual Stage Oil Pump OP3530 Smart Flow From EV Prototype Made In USA | eBay

The specs changed and so these units were pulled before they were sold. This unit was hooked up but likely not run or used further than basic testing. As such it is being sold as New (other).
www.ebay.com
Click to expand...
What specs are you looking for :confused: first link has many.

25amps seems low, but it also only flows 3gpm, which is also low.


www.improvedracing.com

Melling 10296 High Volume, High Pressure LS Oil Pump

Melling 10296 pump flows 18% more oil than the factory oil pump Features a stiffer pressure relief spring, which increases the maximum system oil pressure by 10% Factory volumetric flow rate, around 8 GPM Cast aluminum housing, CNC-machined and hard anodized Compatible with factory GM oil pickup...
www.improvedracing.com www.improvedracing.com

Internet link with volume shows a "high volume" pump at 1.14 cu in per rev for 8gpm at 1621 pump rpm

3gpm is roughly idle output for a stock pump
 
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