Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

[Bebop]

This isn’t really chassis related but is. Starlink can it be useful enough and accurate enough that someone could remotely co-dawg the race? Like them watching in real time they’re in drivers ear giving directions?

Already exists. Look at Leadnav. I know Levi uses it.

I could see technology removing the co-dawg and then the push going back to lighter single seaters real quick. Only disadvantage is winching and spotter.

Leadnav exists since 2016.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

IDK man, I feel like my car is bigger and a UFO was DEFINITELY bigger.

The interview with Miller yesterday after the race looked like he was sitting in motor home and not a race car.

 

[Bebop]

The interview with Miller yesterday after the race looked like he was sitting in motor home and not a race car.

looks like.

I promise you his car is smaller than mine.

 

[ridered3]

This isn’t really chassis related but is. Starlink can it be useful enough and accurate enough that someone could remotely co-dawg the race? Like them watching in real time they’re in drivers ear giving directions?

I could see technology removing the co-dawg and then the push going back to lighter single seaters real quick. Only disadvantage is winching and spotter.

Double VCP racing. Drone has to hit the VCP and the driver has to as well.

Fleet of drones following and leading the car throughout the course would work for navigation and spotting through a team member monitoring drone video.

Don't get stuck and you don't have to winch solves the last problem.

Drone throws a winch line out to pull them through the stuck situation.

 

[Treefrog]

How much steering angle does Erik have, how much vertical travel does he have, and how wide is he outside to outside tire? I honestly don't know, so I would be curious to see how it compares to IFS builds. The article someone linked about Raul's car says he has 21" of front travel and a 92" track width.

His chassis would probably have to be completely redisigned to make effective use of portals, but I think they would help provided they are part of the design from the initial concept.

From a few years ago: Erik Miller's 2016 King of The Hammers Winning Car: The King’s Chariot

 

[Bebop]

From a few years ago: Erik Miller's 2016 King of The Hammers Winning Car: The King’s Chariot

First Look: Miller Motorsports Pro Series Chassis

The easy way to build a proven Ultra4 Racing chassis.

www.drivingline.com

That was the updated article a few months later.

And they are still changing it and making small improvements here and there.

They had a big Evo 2 version with a lengthened wheelbase in 2018 and 16" shocks upfront IIRC

Then in 2021 they changed the back end to put both optimas under the spare tire.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

This driveshaft you compare to a lower link needs to spin at 4171rpm vibration free (calculation made using a top speed of 100mph, with 40" tires and a 4.88 gear ratio). Not an easy feat. At all.

You mean like old dudes in backyard machine shops have been doing for decades?

Really though, I get what you're saying. But I'm talking a team like vaughn or Currie, who basically have unlimited budgets and both were taken out of podium finishes by driveshaft failures.

For $10k I feel like I could get a near bulletproof driveshaft made. 3" 250 wall chromo? Or maybe even titanium for that money.

 

[arse_sidewards]

For $10k I feel like I could get a near bulletproof driveshaft made. 3" 250 wall chromo? Or maybe even titanium for that money.

1/8 wall with some super expensive space age honeycomb extruded shit that keeps it from deflecting

 

[ridered3]

You mean like old dudes in backyard machine shops have been doing for decades?

Really though, I get what you're saying. But I'm talking a team like vaughn or Currie, who basically have unlimited budgets and both were taken out of podium finishes by driveshaft failures.

For $10k I feel like I could get a near bulletproof driveshaft made. 3" 250 wall chromo? Or maybe even titanium for that money.

Vaughn killed the rear driveshaft by “helmet on and brain off” two miles into the race. He picked a terrible line he probably wouldn’t have picked had it not been for the bottle neck. You can probably make an indestructible driveshaft, but that won’t make up for bad judgement or it will just make the fuse something else.

 

[06h3]

I agree with all that has been said on getting cars smaller, I do just want to mention that the size of UTVs is trending bigger too. A can am Maverick R is bigger then a 2 door JL is just about every dimension. Even that UTV is still substantially smaller then the big U4 cars but I do wonder how much bigger a UTV will get

 

[ridered3]

First Look: Miller Motorsports Pro Series Chassis

The easy way to build a proven Ultra4 Racing chassis.

www.drivingline.com

That was the updated article a few months later.

And they are still changing it and making small improvements here and there.

They had a big Evo 2 version with a lengthened wheelbase in 2018 and 16" shocks upfront IIRC

Then in 2021 they changed the back end to put both optimas under the spare tire.

I recall a podcast (possibly Talent Tank?) with Erik or Josh and they discussed all the thoughts and “arguments” they had amongst themselves about extending the rear wheelbase. The level of thought was mind blowing when they are talking about moving things around on the chassis. Really enjoyed the tech insight from it.

 

[vetteboy79]

I recall a podcast (possibly Talent Tank?) with Erik or Josh and they discussed all the thoughts and “arguments” they had amongst themselves about extending the rear wheelbase. The level of thought was mind blowing when they are talking about moving things around on the chassis. Really enjoyed the tech insight from it.

Yep. If there was a way or advantage to make that chassis smaller, they would have done it already.

xwhatever on it's not really all that different size-wise than any other chassis with consistent podium finishes.

edit: also Erik is not a big dude. I am not either. You look at something like Tim Diekmann's / Liquid Iron Eliminator chassis; when i've been crew chief for his team I can barely even drive that thing. With just the lap belt on my feet are nowhere near the pedals. Once you put a bigger guy (like Tim) in there with full race gear and required clearances to tubing, the size ends up being what it is. Especially with a chassis also designed for production.

 

[arse_sidewards]

“helmet on and brain off”

They've had a solution for those kinds of "operators" for a hundred years now

 

[JR4X]

I could not find a minimum weight in the rulebook or the rule additions. I was asking if there was a particular section or if that rule was somewhere else.

I could have sworn I had it in writing from U4 but I can’t find it. So let’s say I am dead ass wrong about that. My apologies, I was dead certain that was the written rule. But I think I misunderstood a clarification bullet point on chassis material diameter for a given weight.

 

['84 Bronco II]

50 degrees
18"
and I'm not sure on width. But I've seen it upclose and its narrower than my car (which is 91" wide).


Solid axle portal cars are retarded.
Why not add another 100lbs+ of unsprung weight per axle on something that's already at a huge disavantage for that very reason?

I feel like there is room for improvement on 18" of travel. I am not saying the packaging would be easy, but I am really surprised thay's all he has. You would need leading arms to get much more so you're not buckling shocks, but what's stopping them from getting travel numbers closer to the rear end (Gomez has 28" of rear travel)?

Solid axle portal cars have won in the past, and why is the extra unsprung weight worth it on an independent suspension but not a solid axle? With portals, you could take some beef out of the rest of the axle to compensate to some degree. Do you really think the difference between some aluminum housing portals from 74 Weld are 100+Lbs heavier per axle than Spidertrax outers? I don't know, but I would guess it would be closer. That raises another question in my mind, what is that actual difference in unsprung weight per corner between one of the top IFS cars and Miller or Slawson's cars

 

[Weasel]

It's a good bit less on the IFS as only half your IFS assembly is considered unsprung vs a SFA it all is. But yes I agree with your line of thought. If it works okay for IFS then it would work okay for SFA as well. Now if it's need, I don't know. How much time could you pick up through the small rocks?

Not sure what improvements could be made on the Miller but I'd guess it's just tweaks.

 

[Bebop]

I feel like there is room for improvement on 18" of travel. I am not saying the packaging would be easy, but I am really surprised thay's all he has. You would need leading arms to get much more so you're not buckling shocks, but what's stopping them from getting travel numbers closer to the rear end (Gomez has 28" of rear travel)?

Leading arms will cut into turning radius.
I can't tell you why. Maybe would have to rework the whole back end + driveshaft concerns. But I don't know and can't speak for them. Travel isn't everything. TTs clear 35+", why wouldn't the UFO get there too ?

Solid axle portal cars have won in the past

Who and when ? JR, 10+ years ago ?

why is the extra unsprung weight worth it on an independent suspension but not a solid axle? With portals, you could take some beef out of the rest of the axle to compensate to some degree. Do you really think the difference between some aluminum housing portals from 74 Weld are 100+Lbs heavier per axle than Spidertrax outers? I don't know, but I would guess it would be closer.

I don't think so.
On both accounts.

That raises another question in my mind, what is that actual difference in unsprung weight per corner between one of the top IFS cars and Miller or Slawson's cars

It's not per corner. It's per axle. SA cars have to deal with the whole axle on both corners at the same time. IFS are... well, independent.

 

[94toytruck]

Yep. If there was a way or advantage to make that chassis smaller, they would have done it already.

xwhatever on it's not really all that different size-wise than any other chassis with consistent podium finishes.

edit: also Erik is not a big dude. I am not either. You look at something like Tim Diekmann's / Liquid Iron Eliminator chassis; when i've been crew chief for his team I can barely even drive that thing. With just the lap belt on my feet are nowhere near the pedals. Once you put a bigger guy (like Tim) in there with full race gear and required clearances to tubing, the size ends up being what it is. Especially with a chassis also designed for production.

I've sat in Chris D's LII car and it's tight with no race gear for me, I doubt I could drive it. He's a good bit smaller than me but I'd say a average size guy but that car just isn't that big inside. I don't know how someone that's bigger can drive one for a extended period of time.

 

[ridered3]

Yep. If there was a way or advantage to make that chassis smaller, they would have done it already.

xwhatever on it's not really all that different size-wise than any other chassis with consistent podium finishes.

edit: also Erik is not a big dude. I am not either. You look at something like Tim Diekmann's / Liquid Iron Eliminator chassis; when i've been crew chief for his team I can barely even drive that thing. With just the lap belt on my feet are nowhere near the pedals. Once you put a bigger guy (like Tim) in there with full race gear and required clearances to tubing, the size ends up being what it is. Especially with a chassis also designed for production.

That’s what I feel like when I sit in Bebop buggy. I’m barely touching the seat and barely touching the pedals in order to make fake engine noises. Meanwhile he feels like he’s riding in a clown car in mine cause he’s got all them legs and nowhere for them to go

They've had a solution for those kinds of "operators" for a hundred years now

I’d love to hear you pitch that idea to FunHaver for their race program

 

[ridered3]

I could have sworn I had it in writing from U4 but I can’t find it. So let’s say I am dead ass wrong about that. My apologies, I was dead certain that was the written rule. But I think I misunderstood a clarification bullet point on chassis material diameter for a given weight.

I also thought there was a minimum weight requirement for 4400 of 3k pounds.

 

[cdemart2]

I've sat in Chris D's LII car and it's tight with no race gear for me, I doubt I could drive it. He's a good bit smaller than me but I'd say a average size guy but that car just isn't that big inside. I don't know how someone that's bigger can drive one for a extended period of time.

did you sit on the driver's or passenger side? when I had the prp seats mine was up and forward a little for visibility. when I switched to sparcos I gained head and leg room when mounted in the same position. you'll have to try it again.

Tim is bigger than me and his seats were practically touching the floor and rear firewall. he's also switched to composite shell seats but his are PRP which are bigger than mine so not sure if he gained room like I did.

I do wish tim built them with another inch or two of headroom but it works as is.

 

[Weasel]

And so much of it comes down to 1 day and the race. If Dave adds more desert it changes, if Dave adds more rocks it changes. If your stuff doesn't hold up or that 1 dumb thing quit your day changes.

I also thought there was a minimum weight requirement for 4400 of 3k pounds.

I don't think the Can-Am would meet that requirment.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

And so much of it comes down to 1 day and the race. If Dave adds more desert it changes, if Dave adds more rocks it changes. If your stuff doesn't hold up or that 1 dumb thing quit your day changes.

I don't think the Can-Am would meet that requirment.

They are almost 2k stock. I bet 3k in 4400 trim is easy, especially with 400lbs of people in it.

 

[Weasel]

race weight is usually without people and some other stuff, spares & fluids?

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

race weight is usually without people and some other stuff, spares & fluids?

WUT?

 

[ridered3]

I've sat in Chris D's LII car and it's tight with no race gear for me, I doubt I could drive it. He's a good bit smaller than me but I'd say a average size guy but that car just isn't that big inside. I don't know how someone that's bigger can drive one for a extended period of time.

First mental images that pop into my head are Ryan Miller squeezed into Levi Shirley’s single seat Campbell chassis last year for KOH or Terry Madden shoved sideways into Bailey Campbell’s old solid axle 4400 chassis.

Are they big guys in small vehicles or normal sized guys around small people???

 

[Bebop]

First mental images that pop into my head are Ryan Miller squeezed into Levi Shirley’s single seat Campbell chassis last year for KOH or Terry Madden shoved sideways into Bailey Campbell’s old solid axle 4400 chassis.

Are they big guys in small vehicles or normal sized guys around small people???

I was surprised how most buggies/racecars are pretty small when it comes to passenger compartment.
Desert trucks (which are huge) are a lot more roomier IMO.

did you sit on the driver's or passenger side? when I had the prp seats mine was up and forward a little for visibility. when I switched to sparcos I gained head and leg room when mounted in the same position. you'll have to try it again.

Tim is bigger than me and his seats were practically touching the floor and rear firewall. he's also switched to composite shell seats but his are PRP which are bigger than mine so not sure if he gained room like I did.

I'm going to shell seats.
What model of sparcos did you end up getting ? And do you know what model of PRPs Tim got ? I was looking towards the Alphas, but if you're telling me they're not much smaller I may reconsider...

 

[arse_sidewards]

I’d love to hear you pitch that idea to FunHaver for their race program

I'm not saying to just throw a PTO clutch on there but these vehicles can get bound up and climb a straight rock without even coming close to breaking anything. You'd think that there's space between that and the force you get with a shock load to tune something to slip when breaking something since breakage almost certainly guarantees you won't be winning.

 

[EXTREMETOWNIE]

I would also like some opinions on the shell seats.

 

[ridered3]

I'm not saying to just throw a PTO clutch on there but these vehicles can get bound up and climb a straight rock without even coming close to breaking anything. You'd think that the space between that and the force you get with a shock load to tune something to slip when breaking something almost certainly guarantees you won't be winning.

I was picking up what you were putting down.