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Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

ridered3 said:
Agreed there until you have some weird breakage during Qualifying and DNF.
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If you put that Prologue on Monday or Tuesday, they would likely have time to get repaired before Sat. But if they DNF or break, they are likely not racing Sat.
 
Isdtbower said:
Have you-all taken videos of your SA's? Have you added camber and maybe some or less caster gain or anti's to the front turning axles as easily done.
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We put a few (3 if I remember) degrees of camber into Fred years ago, I never drove it (couldn't reach the pedals :laughing:) but Tim said it made a huge difference cornering. Also said it made the front spool feel like it tracked better, we were going to try a Wavetrac LSD in the front, and I think he eventually did, but after changing the camber that got bumped down the priority list.

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I've been quietly lurking in this thread because it's been a while since I've revisited the future of 4400, but this year has me somewhat reinvigorated. I'll come back with some of my overall opinions later, but this reply is for the solid axle camber topic.

Ball splines are something I thought long and hard about a few years ago. Yes they become a consumable because you have friction where it wasn't originally intended, but if they last the whole race before getting worn out, then it's just a consumable like anything else.

The idea has a ton of potential in solid rear axles IMO

Winters Performance 3942-03 27-1/4 Inch 16-Spline Ball Drive Shaft

Ball Spline.png
 
AgitatedPancake said:
I've been quietly lurking in this thread because it's been a while since I've revisited the future of 4400, but this year has me somewhat reinvigorated. I'll come back with some of my overall opinions later, but this reply is for the solid axle camber topic.

Ball splines are something I thought long and hard about a few years ago. Yes they become a consumable because you have friction where it wasn't originally intended, but if they last the whole race before getting worn out, then it's just a consumable like anything else.

The idea has a ton of potential in solid rear axles IMO

Winters Performance 3942-03 27-1/4 Inch 16-Spline Ball Drive Shaft

Ball Spline.png
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That makes me wonder about using something like a series 30 style cv built into or mounted to the hub like a wheel spacer. It would help with strength.
 
AgitatedPancake said:
I've been quietly lurking in this thread because it's been a while since I've revisited the future of 4400, but this year has me somewhat reinvigorated. I'll come back with some of my overall opinions later, but this reply is for the solid axle camber topic.

Ball splines are something I thought long and hard about a few years ago. Yes they become a consumable because you have friction where it wasn't originally intended, but if they last the whole race before getting worn out, then it's just a consumable like anything else.

The idea has a ton of potential in solid rear axles IMO
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I think it was Triaged on the old board that was talking about them using those in short course and possibly in the TTs
 
Treefrog said:
That makes me wonder about using something like a series 30 style cv built into or mounted to the hub like a wheel spacer. It would help with strength.
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Honestly that would be the ideal low friction answer, at the penalty of expense.

In a similar way that some companies are exploring telescoping axle shafts with linear ball bearings instead of the standard high friction slips as used in TTBs and the like

Ball Spline Products - Complete Assemblies

mobil1syn said:
I think it was Triaged on the old board that was talking about them using those in short course and possibly in the TTs
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That's most likely right. I know the conversation had come up somewhere before but couldn't remember where
 
So just to throw my own hat in the ring my personal opinion on where the tech is leading has definitely varied quite a bit over time. I think the UTV performance these past few years has been eye opening. And if you look at Loren's latest full independent rig, it's trending more towards an oversized UTV than anything else, especially the rear suspension config. I think what we're moving towards a blended in-between.

I personally think we're done seeing U4 cars get bigger, I think the era of 94-96" outside tire to outside tire range is at or beyond its peak, we'll see the current rigs or narrower ones win from here on out. I also think UTVs trying to survive 4400 (in its current state) are going to slowly, incrementally, get bigger/heavier/more durable. Because fast yet fragile seems to be the name of the game for most of the field (except the consistent guys showing up in the top 10).

So if you take the labels away and look at Lorens like a "full sized vehicle", and the Can Am's are like a "2/3 sized vehicle", I think we're going to see an era of "3/4 sized vehicles". Whatever that means. Mid-80" wide IFS with portals and narrow diffs, possibly IRS with portals, but solid axle is also a reasonable option.

What I do think we're nearing (~5 years), is a pretty interesting inflection point on affordability of IFS. Like any technology it first has to be done painfully and brutally expensive, but everything about the current way it's done is ripe for advancement and simplification. Now I don't think it's going to reach some tipping point of becoming the majority over solid axles, but I think it's going to find its way into more "low budget" race cars, along with portals

One final thing to note that I think I should clarify because there are very different scenarios for the "perfect rig". I (and I believe a lot of you) are talking about the perfect KOH rig as the title of the thread suggested. But if we're talking about the perfect rig for the entire series - to win the championship, the line gets quite a bit more blurry. Super wide IFS cars have essentially zero downside to being wide on short course races with small relatively high speed rock sections. They have almost zero downside to being wide if they're entering into any of the desert races like a few have done. But then the super wide IFS kicks their ass slaloming through the trees where Millers chassis frequently shine etc.

So while we might scoff at some car design choices for this one specific race from our armchair quarterback positions, many of these serious guys have the whole season in mind with their design choices.
 
AgitatedPancake said:
Now I don't think it's going to reach some tipping point of becoming the majority over solid axles, but I think it's going to find its way into more "low budget" race cars, along with portals
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I'd be surprised.
I see 4400 becoming more and more expensive and this won't change IMO

AgitatedPancake said:
One final thing to note that I think I should clarify because there are very different scenarios for the "perfect rig". I (and I believe a lot of you) are talking about the perfect KOH rig as the title of the thread suggested. But if we're talking about the perfect rig for the entire series - to win the championship, the line gets quite a bit more blurry. Super wide IFS cars have essentially zero downside to being wide on short course races with small relatively high speed rock sections. They have almost zero downside to being wide if they're entering into any of the desert races like a few have done. But then the super wide IFS kicks their ass slaloming through the trees where Millers chassis frequently shine etc.
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Do you have to enter the same car for every race of the championship?
Doesn't sound too far fetched to imagine teams having multiple cars depending on the race.

Or multiple axles / Arms / axles combo depending on the race.

SLOWPOKE693 said:
Yup, Audi, VW and a bunch of others all run front suspensions similar to that design.
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And Teslas, and Toyota and others
It has a lot of pros.
 
Bebop said:
I'd be surprised.
I see 4400 becoming more and more expensive and this won't change IMO


Do you have to enter the same car for every race of the championship?
Doesn't sound too far fetched to imagine teams having multiple cars depending on the race.

Or multiple axles / Arms / axles combo depending on the race.


And Teslas, and Toyota and others
It has a lot of pros.
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I agree 4400 is going to get more expensive, but I stand by the opinion that I think IFS is going to get cheaper. The highest budget teams will push the latest technology, but "last years" technology is going to become more and more available.

I actually don't know the rules on if you have to enter the same chassis for every event for championship points, but I do believe almost all of the field do run the same car for every race. I agree that race team budgets are getting to the point where they could field multiple cars throughout the season, but I genuinely don't know if it's happening at the moment.

Multiple arm configurations I do think is happening though. I don't have confirmation of this, but I swear last year Loren was on portals for KOH and all of the publicity, but didn't run the portals on the short course races
 
I know for sure that Jake Hallenbeck had different axle sets and suspensions for his B2 bomber.
That was a long time ago already.
 
Jason (and I'm sure the funhavers too) had qualifying portals and different race portals.
Same for the third.
 
Bebop said:
Why not?
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I've got no problem with it at all on a series with an uncapped budget.Though it's still an amusing thought that just brings a smile to my face even if it comes to fruition. because horsepower :grinpimp:. Might not be for everyone, but that's not what the 4400 class is for.

Honestly I completely respect the 4400 class as the only genuine, completely open, "run what ya brung" class in motorsport (that I know of). I can't express enough how much I appreciate the freedom that gives creative minds. Like F1 used to be. I understand why F1 is the heavily regulated monster it is these days, but damn does it restrict on that innovative freedom that used to dominate the sport. :beer:
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
That doesn't happen already? :confused:

I'd be shocked if there wasn't at least one team doing that for KOH.
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So lets open that one up for discussion, I'm genuinely curious.

My take on it is that most of the top race teams have a backup engine in the trailer, but if their engine is healthy come race day, that's what they run. I would be very curious to find out of there are teams on the lakebed with the actual intent to qualify on one motor (at potentially extremely high horsetorques), and swap a fresh motor in on race day, by choice.
 
AgitatedPancake said:
So lets open that one up for discussion, I'm genuinely curious.

My take on it is that most of the top race teams have a backup engine in the trailer, but if their engine is healthy come race day, that's what they run. I would be very curious to find out of there are teams on the lakebed with the actual intent to qualify on one motor (at potentially extremely high horsetorques), and swap a fresh motor in on race day, by choice.
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If I had unlimited funds........ I'd run my backup engine for pre-running and qualifying and then swap in the bullet for the race.

That's what they used to do in the Nascar Cup series before they banned doing that.
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
If I had unlimited funds........ I'd run my backup engine for pre-running and qualifying and then swap in the bullet for the race.

That's what they used to do in the Nascar Cup series before they banned doing that.
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If I had unlimited funds I'd have a prerunner, a qualifying car and a race car :smokin:
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
If I had unlimited funds........ I'd run my backup engine for pre-running and qualifying and then swap in the bullet for the race.

That's what they used to do in the Nascar Cup series before they banned doing that.
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No disagreement at all on the rationale, I just don't know if it's happening at that level yet, so I'm asking genuinely. 4400 budgets have definitely been increasing over time, but I don't know if they've reached the "qualifying well is worth a 10k motor" phase yet haha.
 
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