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Future of KOH 4400 chassis/car development?

They could “easily” do something like that using the Prologue format for the desert races.

Long qualifying course, top X number get into the main race, and like usual all former Kings always have a spot to race from.

I think they do need something like this to weed out some of the trail plugs in 4400. It is an unlimited pro class, not the "Ive never wheeled the hammers but lets build a car and go racing class". What happened to the LCQ for the people who didnt get points? I never heard it mentioned this year. I know this is why they had the rookie class stuff but their was still guys that had never been out there. There were multiple times throughout the week where Dave basically said, if you have never wheeled here don't even bother, just pack up and go home. Obviously he didnt mention that in the rookie class "orientation".
 
There were multiple times throughout the week where Dave basically said, if you have never wheeled here don't even bother, just pack up and go home. Obviously he didnt mention that in the rookie class "orientation".
Or when RG got a last minute seat
 
I'd be more interested in watching a limited entry "Rock racing" class than what is morphing into an unlimited buggy desert class (Class 1?)with 4400. I mean, I'll watch a little regardless but I'm not glued to the screen all day.
 
I think they do need something like this to weed out some of the trail plugs in 4400. It is an unlimited pro class, not the "Ive never wheeled the hammers but lets build a car and go racing class". What happened to the LCQ for the people who didnt get points? I never heard it mentioned this year. I know this is why they had the rookie class stuff but their was still guys that had never been out there. There were multiple times throughout the week where Dave basically said, if you have never wheeled here don't even bother, just pack up and go home. Obviously he didnt mention that in the rookie class "orientation".
Agreed there. Would be nice to have a racing to win and racing to say we raced class at separate times. Plus that way there are two 4400 races during Hammers.

It was impressive though to have as little experience in the rocks as he does and go out and finish top 20. But he also had the keys to a UFO
Especially since it had been used as a Prerunner for the previous couple of weeks so it had already been Gomez style beat up.

I'd be more interested in watching a limited entry "Rock racing" class than what is morphing into an unlimited buggy desert class (Class 1?)with 4400. I mean, I'll watch a little regardless but I'm not glued to the screen all day.
That would be cool. I tune in and out when they are in the desert sections but am glued to the tv when in the rocks/bypasses.
 
It was impressive though to have as little experience in the rocks as he does and go out and finish top 10. But he also had the keys to a UFO
fixed. Is there any more impressive story from the race this year?
 
Agreed there. Would be nice to have a racing to win and racing to say we raced class at separate times. Plus that way there are two 4400 races during Hammers.
Isn't that basically what the legends class is for?

I do kinda wonder about some of these guys that come out to race. They had what, 100-120 entries for 4400, and there is maybe a handfull of the same guys at the top every year. I just can't see how a small team can think they can compete. Then of course there is Webb.
 
Isn't that basically what the legends class is for?

I do kinda wonder about some of these guys that come out to race. They had what, 100-120 entries for 4400, and there is maybe a handfull of the same guys at the top every year. I just can't see how a small team can think they can compete. Then of course there is Webb.
In my opinion, yes that’s one of three purposes for Legends class. So many want to race 4400 whether their abilities are there or not though so you have lots of folks in the wrong classes.

Purpose one is a feeder class to eventually move up to 4400 for those that desire to.

Purpose two is for a “cheaper” class of racing for those that want to stay 4800 but maybe don’t want to spend the coin to go 4400 racing.

Purpose three is for retired 4400 class race cars to have a place to race.
 
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They could “easily” do something like that using the Prologue format for the desert races.

Long qualifying course, top X number get into the main race, and like usual all former Kings always have a spot to race from.
New better idea…

Long qualifying course like the desert qualifying to determine starting order. X number of people get in via the qualifier and the returning Kings get a spot regardless of the qualifier.

Then have an LCQ race up Backdoor with no winching for say 5-10 spots.
 
New better idea…

Long qualifying course like the desert qualifying to determine starting order. X number of people get in via the qualifier and the returning Kings get a spot regardless of the qualifier.

Then have an LCQ race up Backdoor with no winching for say 5-10 spots.
Backdoor is meh...too short and not enough driving skill needed to filter racers out. It's just line up, mash the throttle and hope for the best:homer:

I'd much rather see the LCQ run on a longer trail, fastest time bottom to top. Plenty of trails available to place the difficulty level appropriately at the time of the race. They change all the time getting harder and easier depending how the rocks move around and or get stacked. Dealing with broken rigs might take longer and be more difficult but there shouldn't be near as many broken rigs as you'd get from backdoor.
 
Backdoor is meh...too short and not enough driving skill needed to filter racers out. It's just line up, mash the throttle and hope for the best:homer:

I'd much rather see the LCQ run on a longer trail, fastest time bottom to top. Plenty of trails available to place the difficulty level appropriately at the time of the race. They change all the time getting harder and easier depending how the rocks move around and or get stacked. Dealing with broken rigs might take longer and be more difficult but there shouldn't be near as many broken rigs as you'd get from backdoor.
I’m up for whatever as long as it makes KOH more better.
 
I think the less rules the better. The only thing I think would make it better is if they were forced into the big rocks more often, less driving around. Maybe more course workers to help clear traffic jams. Then they just need more volunteers
 
I think the less rules the better. The only thing I think would make it better is if they were forced into the big rocks more often, less driving around. Maybe more course workers to help clear traffic jams. Then they just need more volunteers
Agreed on keeping them in the rocks instead of driving around when possible.

The problem with relying on Volunteers is two fold.

Problem one is getting the Volunteers in the first place/communication with the Volunteers. Like usual it seems KOH relies heavily on Volunteers but doesn’t communicate/use some of them as needed.

Problem two is the authority of the Volunteers with racers and spectators. Racers/Spectators don’t want to listen to someone tell them what they can or can’t do when they are “just” a Volunteer.
 
The Can-Ams that were running the 4400 race were right around 500hp and are dead nuts reliable. I've yet to see one of these guys have engine problems. I would think that with another 100hp or maybe less? that those golf carts would be able to keep up with the IFS/IRS 4400's in the desert.
Was the dessert lap the same for UTV and 4400? Looking at times for the lap 1 from the UTV race to the 4400 race are pretty similar.
 
Looks like Hunter Miller had the 9th fastest desert lap in the 4400 race and was only about 7 minutes slower than schereer who was the fastest.
Seems like UTV are already right on pace with the top 4400 cars in the desert.

2023-02-15 09_07_23-Ultra4 Racing.png
 
I realize course marking is a very time consuming task, and this would just make it more time consuming, but Ultra4/Hammerking could pre-run the course on Wednesday and put posts with wrong way flags at every conceivable bypass.

Downside is that these cars have enough capability to just make a new bypass where there wasn't a conceivable bypass. For example, The "Tom Wayes Line" high and to the right of the waterfall on Wrecking Ball. I was a recovery volunteer and watched him run it for the first time ever in 2011ish. I'm sure he saw it during prerunning, but there was no tracks and I wouldn't have thought of it.
 
I think the less rules the better. The only thing I think would make it better is if they were forced into the big rocks more often, less driving around. Maybe more course workers to help clear traffic jams. Then they just need more volunteers
I've been a recovery volunteer a handful of years, in general we're told not to help unless:
1. There is a safety issue
2. They are blocking the only race line and can't move on their own

Most traffic jams are neither of the above. The trail plug is still on their wheels, just moving slower than the cars behind them. More times than I can count it looked like the co-drive has never seen a winch in their life.

Do you implement a 3 tries rule like Sierra Trek? After you try the obstacle 3 times, you need to winch. I'm sure that would go over like a turd in a punchbowl.
 
Not sure who this IFS sorcerer is that you speak of but I think he has something figured out. First time I saw Scherer's new car I knew they had something going just by the looks of it in comparison to the other IFS portal cars. I'm a solid axle suspension junkie and have no clue about all the IFS geometry but this thing seems pretty wild.

Those that have more knowledge on it than me, what is the reason for the steep angle of the upper at ride height? Maybe a super low anti dive to allow the live valve to do all the work when braking and descending hills? Camber curve through travel? Or maybe it is just a result of how low this thing sits considering it being on portals. But I know none of the fun haver portal cars have this geometry. Seems like they really put some thought into designing a system specifically around the portals and live valve shocks. You could really see in qualifying how smooth this thing was in the small nuisance rocks in her problem and Idle issues in the second half of the course.


scherer 2.jpg


scherer 3.PNG
If you look closely at this diagram, you will visualize what happens with body roll. (You have to disregard the tires in the picture as they are wrong per the description of the geometry. I should fix that. but this is from Bob Boles who helps explain what is going on but misses it here. Which is fine with me because the casual observer will not get it.)

If all the arms were parallel and same length. The top of the tire would move significantly out (positive camber to the ground which is bad, especially in turning. Back when there was not so much offset in the wheels, the top arm could be shortened within the wheel or close to the rim, The top arm was shortened to pull the top of the wheel/tire in on body roll to keep the tire in better contact with the ground (like a SA). To make half shafts longer to save CV's on turning and articulation, the max wheel offsets have moved from 3.5" to in the 6" range. That meant the top "ball joint" had to move outside the tire. This makes the upright Huge/tall that was resisted in IFS design at first. But the designer always finds a way when it is clear that something needs to happen...or can now happen. Along with the old designs there has to be a certain separation between the top and bottom pivots at the frame for strength. As a result, the CAMBER GAIN (to the body but not to the ground) on body roll was limited. Now, you can almost go too far with it. If you look at Jason's picture, you can visualize that the top arm would really pull the top of the wheel inward on bump whee traction is most important. On droop, traction is less important because you have less pressure to the ground to make a huge difference. (And because of scuff actually makes some more contact...but just contact.

This gets compounding tricky when the inside pivots have to intersect the inner CV perfectly for bumpsteer, As well as King pin angle (KPI) and caster continues to come into play. This is where years of "experience" comes into play (FU's). Nope, not qualified to even say how. Just what it "should be."

Anti-dives and other IFS features are controlled by how much the top and bottom bulkhead has tilt to each other, and the pivot angles from the top view. These are closely held. Active shocks will make these angles less necessary but will help in keeping shock temperatures under control when the fluid in the shocks go restrictive and building more heat.

Personally, when I see a sway bar on a IFS, it is because they have missed the camber gain geometry and quick turning or cannot accept front body roll caster loss and slow tire grip turning. In the shop, they may still have articulation, but in video, they effectively don't.

Another picture is one that appeared on line where several commented on how bitchen it was. First was the photographer that didn't get it, and second the casual looker. It is a bitchen picture that does look fast though. But not. Before the Red Dragon rolled and they added a roll bar. Do the Mason designers get it? We learned from their 2wd's over the years and now they extend into 4wd with probably 4400 encouragement. To-date, they are sold out on trucks and will not build a 4400. I keep looking at the cool drivetrain stuff and question how bulletproof they would be at KOH. Time and experience will dictate that decision probably.
IFSDiveAndRollCircleTrack6.16.jpg
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CamberBuggyBad Bodyroll.JPG
IFSMAsonTruckTurn.jpg


I can't believe this got boiled down to 5 paragraphs. But easier to discuss the why instead of how...........or how much.

Now look closer at the tire roll-under. That will also dictate how much caster gain you might want. Tire companies are making the carcuses stronger in the last couple years. This is where the video and stills tell the story. Not on the drawing board. CAD and simulation is useless with out that mental and visual input. Now look at some SXS pictures, where, by "rule" the pivots can't be changed from stock. And, I think most of the new rigs are/will be going narrower as geometry has allowed. And all of this can be changed with purpose-full set-ups. (Qual vs Race) So you DO have to be careful when looking. A whole bunch can be exaggerated for short term..
 
Now look at some SXS pictures, where, by "rule" the pivots can't be changed from stock.
Have you seen the xtravel kits with virtual pivot ?

They are making their way into a lot of the top dogs cars.

g-travel-front-end-kit-front-pts__61948.1628649674.jpg
 
Will make the race longer. Would be nice to see the leaders coming in just before dark like the old days.

they would have to make the race 350 miles long and that keep the course workers out there too long. Raul and Jason averaged 34.7mph over that course. the land grab from the marines has impacted the race more than anything.

A few years ago some of the top guys were talking about having a 4400 Pro class. They said they are running over the slower cars. Are we there yet? Do they need to make another class? I am not sure some of the 4400 cars could keep up with some of the top 4800 cars today.

cant do that, they need all those other participants to keep car counts up for marketing and prize money


Its unfortunate the the lasernut car and the gen right car haven't done better at KOH, but I strongly feel a lot of that is their race program just can't compete with the big names. In the end, the team with the best funding and resources has the best chance at winning. I think the outlier to that idea is probably randy, but he seems to know what is needed out there and focuses on that, also I'm not sure his recipe is competitive anymore.

lasernut has the funding and resources, even more now that cam is in the fold. they are just trying to put lipstick on a chassis from 2015

That's the key right there. The IFS cars have to fail or make a mistake before a live axle car wins.

That said, Slawson and Miller builds good solid cars and they both know how to prep a car and drive, so they will always be a threat. And it's looking like we need to add the Bylers to that list of good car prep and drivers too.

ive always said miller is the ryan dungey of U4, hes not going to beat you outright but will be there to capatialize on your mistakes and misfortunes. that can been said for slawson and the brylers. the fact that rusty at his age is hanign with the big boys is amazing. (30mins behind the leaders)

I think they do need something like this to weed out some of the trail plugs in 4400. It is an unlimited pro class, not the "Ive never wheeled the hammers but lets build a car and go racing class". What happened to the LCQ for the people who didnt get points? I never heard it mentioned this year. I know this is why they had the rookie class stuff but their was still guys that had never been out there. There were multiple times throughout the week where Dave basically said, if you have never wheeled here don't even bother, just pack up and go home. Obviously he didnt mention that in the rookie class "orientation".

In my opinion, yes that’s one of three purposes for Legends class. So many want to race 4400 whether their abilities are there or not though so you have lots of folks in the wrong classes.

Purpose one is a feeder class to eventually move up to 4400 for those that desire to.

Purpose two is for a “cheaper” class of racing for those that want to stay 4800 but maybe don’t want to spend the coin to go 4400 racing.

Purpose three is for retired 4400 class race cars to have a place to race.

you have to sell the dream and having a 'pro' class wont sell the dream. dave has learned from a course design to mitigate the issues with the trail plug problem, but teams need to mindful and of the race and get their junk out of the way.

the cost to run a miller/bomber/trentfab chassis in 4800 or 4400 competitively is a rounding error in the overall budget. i would argue the 4800 is more because it gets beat up more from being under shocked.
 
Not sure who this IFS sorcerer is that you speak of but I think he has something figured out. First time I saw Scherer's new car I knew they had something going just by the looks of it in comparison to the other IFS portal cars. I'm a solid axle suspension junkie and have no clue about all the IFS geometry but this thing seems pretty wild.
Have you-all taken videos of your SA's? Have you added camber and maybe some or less caster gain or anti's to the front turning axles as easily done. Have you thought about barrel rolling the rear axle shafts to add maybe 3* of static camber to make up for tire roll? Some have, and we probably wouldn't easily see it. All cool stuff to keep competitive. From seeing advantages of those in IFS, there are some advantages in SA's that might be taken.. "We are watching you" to avoid traditional IRS.

This is the defining picture of Joe Thompson's / Raul Gomez' IRS that gains about 4-6" of IRS ground clearance over traditional centered diff IRS. And closer to offset diff SA advantages. (Edit 4-5 years old?)
 

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the cost to run a miller/bomber/trentfab chassis in 4800 or 4400 competitively is a rounding error in the overall budget. i would argue the 4800 is more because it gets beat up more from being under shocked.
Thoughts on tires affecting that also? 37s in 4800 would be less direct stress, but fall into holes and less clearance/climb in the rocks.
 
Thoughts on tires affecting that also? 37s in 4800 would be less direct stress, but fall into holes and less clearance/climb in the rocks.

40" stickies will make short work of some stuff a 37" dot tire will need a running start and commitment on.
 
Have you seen the xtravel kits with virtual pivot ?

They are making their way into a lot of the top dogs cars.

g-travel-front-end-kit-front-pts__61948.1628649674.jpg
Yes. And understanding virtual pivots and picking those pivot points off that line where there is no physical interference allowed me to make a IRS where the only thing hanging down below the half shaft is the centered diff. The bottom pivot is at half shaft height. The top pivot is 12" above half shaft height for separation...But in a rear motor or SXS configuration the top arm would be directly into the motor.....or could be out the rear, behind the diffs like most SXS's. Virtual pivots and points have to be basically understood in IRS and IFS. Great point.
 
Looks like a TTB but shorter arms, Ford FTW :flipoff2:
Has been done in a couple privately built Dune cars... In the day. Toe control was pretty innovative also. Like SXS.

It never caught on in 4400 probably from a design strength and toe control standpoint. The somewhat similar, Original Pellegrino/ I____designed car was a disaster from that standpoint. And has been re-configured front and rear. Throwing time, thought, energy, and money at the two/er three FIS cars has not paid off to-date. But maybe not from the IRS portion. Did Loren run his FIS? Or is that build just for exhibition? (Disclosure: I have been building a FIS but would not do it again. From traditional centered diff IRS experience. Not KOH results.......... But the Raul ordered build is the rule breaker. Cheers.
 
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lasernut has the funding and resources, even more now that cam is in the fold. they are just trying to put lipstick on a chassis from 2015
Lasernut might have the funding, but Cody seems more interested in just hanging out and having the largest bonfire.
 
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