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Fuck around and find out (Israel / Palestine version)

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realsquash said:
Don't you think you could fly an RC plane or "drone" up to that balloon and damage it?
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Possibly, but again, it's gonna be surrounded by friendly air defense systems.

You park a patriot system under it and call it a day
 
and you'd think the Balloon's job is to ID threats... and relay them.

? :flipoff2:
 
realsquash said:
Don't you think you could fly an RC plane or "drone" up to that balloon and damage it?
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Nope.

They fly about 10k to 12k from sea level. They are susceptible to small arms fire during deployment or retraction but the bullets merely pass through, and the holes are easily patched. They are flown from inside a hardened perimeter/controlled airspace so small arms fire or even air-to-air events are unlikely. This is an ISR mission (intelligence, surveillance, & reconnaissance). There are mobile platforms that can be deployed more towards a front, but they are also more expendable.

They are pressurized to be sure, but they don't pop or blow-up like a birthday balloon when struck. It takes a massive over-pressure event to destroy the hull catastrophically.

The value of these is they are unmanned, require no fueling or pit stops, provide around-the-clock overwatch, and are cheap compared to similar assets. Even a satellite has to wait 90 minutes for another pass. These are on station all the time.

They have 25k feet of tether on the spool for various reasons, but to keep it simple, if the bag is at 10k feet, there is likely about 15k feet of tether deployed. The tether does not form a straight line from ground to it's position. The cable forms a catenary and is subject to winds and moves/snakes around. The envelope is raised and lowered to stay in a stable wind current, but the tether can be anywhere. There have been accidents in the Keys where civilian craft flew into the keep-out zone, and into the tether; no survivors.
 
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dwygrsshpr said:
It's actually a very small RADAR signature. Sounds like you probably don't understand how radio detection and ranging works. One actually has to have something that bounces the electromagnetic waves back to the receiver. That's how all stealth technology works - disrupting, interrupting, or otherwise not sending a signal back. Those "balloons" are made of fabrics that don't reflect any signals; the only thing that does reflect is the payload and that is much tinier than fighter aircraft systems are used to identifying. Any missile fired at it (if somehow it was locked on), would merely punch through the envelope.

The only way to take one down is to continually strafe it close in. And, there is so much Helium on board, that it will take hours to bring it down. And by that time, the local friendly AF has already been sortied and now it's a real dogfight. And, it can be reeled it in at any time.

What makes you think that none of this has already been solved? These systems have been fielded for decades....
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Balloons are detected visually. If they transmit a signal, they can be located. "If it bleeds it can be killed"
I doubt very seriously it would take hours to perforate that balloon depicted. That's a gross exaggeration. One single quick mini-gun burst in any caliber is hundreds of rounds and finality. It's not like it's some super evil Marvel comics monster. Still an inexpensive yet effective way to gather intel. And Hezbollah doesnt have aircraft bearing the weapons so it stays up for a while.
 
Splib said:
Balloons are detected visually. If they transmit a signal, they can be located. "If it bleeds it can be killed"
I doubt very seriously it would take hours to perforate that balloon depicted. That's a gross exaggeration. One single quick mini-gun burst in any caliber is hundreds of rounds and finality. It's not like it's some super evil Marvel comics monster. Still an inexpensive yet effective way to gather intel. And Hezbollah doesnt have aircraft bearing the weapons so it stays up for a while.
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First its 10k feet up and where the fuck do you expect a bunch of backwards goat herders with aks to come up with a minigun? Much less enough ammo to feed it. And lastly its the size of holes in relation to what you have for gas volume. The skin of a ballon offers no resistance. Bullets don't expand or tumble in one. And even rockets go through usually because it isnt hard enough to set the fuse. People on both sides in the world wars dumped thousands of rounds into this kind of thing from actual attack aircraft and didnt kill them. Theyd just reel it in and sew it up when they were ready.
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And balloons are usually well defended so if you're trying to shoot it down you're getting shot at with a heavy volume of fire. Just ask Frank Luke how hard ballons are too shoot down.

I worked hot air ballons as chase crew when I lived in the Napa Valley. Even with a big tear in the envelope they were still able to be set down in a very controlled fashion. Ballons aren't easy to put out of service.
 
Mikenike said:
First its 10k feet up and where the fuck do you expect a bunch of backwards goat herders with aks to come up with a minigun? Much less enough ammo to feed it. And lastly its the size of holes in relation to what you have for gas volume. The skin of a ballon offers no resistance. Bullets don't expand or tumble in one. And even rockets go through usually because it isnt hard enough to set the fuse. People on both sides in the world wars dumped thousands of rounds into this kind of thing from actual attack aircraft and didnt kill them. Theyd just reel it in and sew it up when they were ready.
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I was replying to dwygrasshopper. If you want to get super analytical and critical with your real world experience firing mini guns into fabric balloons just consider taking the piston engine chopper up there, opening the sunroof and taking a shit down it's throat. For that matter we can take our puppy up there, he can chew anything to pieces or bury it in seconds.

Since you stated "world wars" World war I balloons were hydrogen and they were shot down with tracer all the time. Dead meat.
 
Splib said:
I was replying to dwygrasshopper. If you want to get super analytical and critical with your real world experience firing mini guns into fabric balloons just consider taking the piston engine chopper up there, opening the sunroof and taking a shit down it's throat. For that matter we can take our puppy up there, he can chew anything to pieces or bury it in seconds.

Since you stated "world wars" World war I balloons were hydrogen and they were shot down with tracer all the time. Dead meat.
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Key word there hydrogen. And even that was no nearly as easy as you think. It took sometimes hundreds of those. And again what chopper? We are talking about in the context of facing goat herders without aircraft or even decent munituons. Its not my fault youre retarded. :flipoff2:There are alot of stupid "smart" people on here who get butthurt at the drop of a hat these days. I love how sensitive irate is now. New and improved world:flipoff2:
 
Splib said:
Balloons are detected visually. If they transmit a signal, they can be located. "If it bleeds it can be killed"
I doubt very seriously it would take hours to perforate that balloon depicted. That's a gross exaggeration. One single quick mini-gun burst in any caliber is hundreds of rounds and finality. It's not like it's some super evil Marvel comics monster. Still an inexpensive yet effective way to gather intel. And Hezbollah doesnt have aircraft bearing the weapons so it stays up for a while.
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They don't transmit.
 
aczlan said:
Are they visual only then? What I was seeing made me think that they were running radar of some sort which would by definition include a transmitter and a receiver.

Aaron Z
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Begging a pardon as I was not clear.

They transmit as far as being a RADAR system but all of the data collected is sent down the tether. Meaning, what they see is shielded and cannot be intercepted. And they jump frequencies so it would be hard to get an actual lock-up from an opposing weapon system tying to knock it down.

The optic packages are spooky good. And likewise, sent down the rope.

Like I said previously, these systems have been in place for decades.

I hate to be mysterious about it, but I can't comment any further than what is available in the public domain.
 
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dwygrsshpr said:
Begging a pardon as I was not clear.

They transmit as far as being a RADAR system but all of the data collected is sent down the tether. Meaning, what they see is shielded and cannot be intercepted.

The optic packages are spooky good. And likewise, sent down the rope.
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That makes sense, as I read it Splib was referring to using something like radio direction finding to locate them (using their radar transmitter) versus jamming a downlink signal.

Aaron Z
 
dwygrsshpr said:
Begging a pardon as I was not clear.

They transmit as far as being a RADAR system but all of the data collected is sent down the tether. Meaning, what they see is shielded and cannot be intercepted.

The optic packages are spooky good. And likewise, sent down the rope.
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Had a buddy who was a contractor in Afghanistan and he said if something was in line of sight of the cameras on it you could see it, day or night and in most weather.
 
Thread has ballooned I guess. :flipoff2::flipoff2: Lots of angles and ass umptions. Data is not always sent down a tether, thats a generality. Like the ones the Chy-Nah are floating across the Taiwan Strait right now. :idea: Radar doesnt have to have metal to reflect off of. Watch your news weather channel for the doppler this eve. The goat herders in Hezbollah have had ballistic missiles for over a decade. Pretty sure they can get a chopper easily. Not saying a balloon is not a cost effective surveillance platform or that Hezbollah can easily blast them out of the sky overnight but they have been unchanged since about 1861. Shown throughout history is that it is a dangerous and costly error is to diminish the ability of your opponent and be arrogant and overconfident.

Side bar - It has been posted before, I emphasize - Hezbollah has an assload of ordinance to launch at Israel.
 
In pictures

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Smoke rises over buildings on the outskirts of the southern Lebanese border village of Khiam following Israeli strikes on January 7, 2024
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A vehicle that was carrying a senior Hezbollah member burns after it was hit in an alleged Israeli strike in southern Lebanon on January 8, 2024
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