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“Brophy Jeep” Street Legal Ultra4 4500 class CJ6

Always a good time hanging with Shannon. I was here at Glen Hellen for the first Ultra 4 race there when his powered steering line broke and he crashed into his trailer. We were camped with him and jason scherer. Shannon is one tough dude. Ended up going to the hospital for the burns on his legs.
 

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mobil1syn said:
you need cubic dollars to make cubic inches
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They are running the LS stuff at the ragged edge with 490”-501” cast aluminum and iron LSXR with tall deck and raised cam centers etc. At that point I’d argue that big block is more bang for the buck.

I’ve played with numbers and it’s really close. But there are a half dozen guys now running big blocks.
Jason scherer BBF, jason Blanton BBF nick nelson BBF Loren Healey BBF I think Shannon Campbell BBC and a few others.

900hp from a 540” BBC on 91 octane all day not stressed.
 
mobil1syn said:
you need cubic dollars to make cubic inches
Click to expand...

That's not really true. At 900hp an LS is running on the ragged edge in N/A form and is going to be pricey to maintain for a season.


Rockchump said:
900hp from a 540” BBC on 91 octane all day not stressed.
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Rockchumps example of a typical-ish BB build will run for a season or more without needibg anything more than oil and filter changes and will cost much less to operate because of the pump vs race fuel price difference. Unless you can't physically fit a big block in the car or if it fucks up the weight bias you shoot for so much that it's not worth it or causes negative handling issues, I'm with Rockchump in thinking a BB is the way to go in 4400 to keep the costs in check. Plus they sound nasty! :smokin:
 
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SLOWPOKE693 said:
Aftermarket block, crank and rods laughs at you. A 900hp pump gas big block isn't stressed. Like not even a little bit...
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On a street car, no.
On an actual offroad endurance racing application, they are stressed AF.

There is a reason why Kroyer, Danzio, Dougans and all the high end engines are 6 figures.
 
Bebop said:
On a street car, no.
On an actual offroad endurance racing application, they are stressed AF.

There is a reason why Kroyer, Danzio, Dougans and all the high end engines are 6 figures.
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Because they charge you handsomely for knowing how to keep a ragged edge 900hp LS alive for one entire race. Whos running a TT, short course car ect engine for an entire season without a refresh? There are many different ways to skin a cat, the desert guys go with the most expensive way every time because they have the money to burn.

And a 900hp big block should be much less expensive to build than a ragged edge 900hp LS because the LS will require top of the heap and custom parts to keep it alive, while a 900hp big block will live at 900hp with middle of the road parts.

Yes you can build a ragged edge big block too for all the money but you will be way past 900hp unless the engine builder fucked up royally. :laughing:

There is a Camaro drag car for sale near me with a 706ci big block nitrous motor in it. Dyno sheet shows the motor making 1176hp without the juice (800hp & 4 stages) and I bet that motor can live for years at 1176hp with no juice if it was built accordingly.

When you don't have to rev an engine to 9500rpm to make power and torque they live way longer.
 
SLOWPOKE693 said:
Because they charge you handsomely for knowing how to keep a ragged edge 900hp LS alive for one entire race. Whos running a TT, short course car ect engine for an entire season without a refresh? There are many different ways to skin a cat, the desert guys go with the most expensive way every time because they have the money to burn.

And a 900hp big block should be much less expensive to build than a ragged edge 900hp LS because the LS will require top of the heap and custom parts to keep it alive, while a 900hp big block will live at 900hp with middle of the road parts.

Yes you can build a ragged edge big block too for all the money but you will be way past 900hp unless the engine builder fucked up royally. :laughing:

There is a Camaro drag car for sale near me with a 706ci big block nitrous motor in it. Dyno sheet shows the motor making 1176hp without the juice (800hp & 4 stages) and I bet that motor can live for years at 1176hp with no juice if it was built accordingly.

When you don't have to rev an engine to 9500rpm to make power and torque they live way longer.
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I'm saying that Big Blocks cost 6 figures. And still need a refresh every other race if not more.
Nobody is running a Trophy Truck with an LS in them.

And there is no way a drag motor will live at 7000+ for hours on end summited to the shock loads and shitty air those things inhale in a desert race.
 
Bebop said:
I'm saying that Big Blocks cost 6 figures. And still need a refresh every other race if not more.
Nobody is running a Trophy Truck with an LS in them.

And there is no way a drag motor will live at 7000+ for hours on end summited to the shock loads and shitty air those things inhale in a desert race.
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If your engine is getting shock loaded that bad you picked the wrong converter. The transmission/converter should be absorbing most if not all of it all. Hence why good transmissions run up into the 30k range these days.

If that drag motor was built and balanced correctly why wouldn't it live? What magical fairy dust do the sprinkle on the bottom ends of non drag motors that would make it any different and able to handle desert racing?

You need a hell of alot less valve spring pressure on the seat and open to control valves at 7k RPM than you would need at 9500 RPM so by lowering the RPM's you are gaining longevity and are able to use less custom parts to get there.

And the big cubic inch offstatements. big blocks that sing at 7k RPM for hours disagree with your statments.
 
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I'm not trying to be a dick, but you are way behind the 8 ball when it comes to Trophy Truck stuff.
And I ain't that deep into it either.

Their trans cost more than that and they are still shockloading the F out of the engines.

That said we are wayyyyy deep into derail territory on Rockchump thread.
 
So both big blocks and small blocks are used in TT’s in all honestly there is not good reason why those motor are that expensive. It’s maybe $15k-$20k in parts max. Maybe $30k with all the custom billet accessories and dry sump, 8stack and stuff.
Robby Gordon used modified cup car small blocks that recede to the moon. But most everyone used 500+” big blocks there are some small blocks running around now but most of the big name teams especially running mason or Gieser AWD are running 1100hp dual 4barrel or 8stack big blocks. Big block will be stronger and easier to make hp and torque more reliably. Yes physical size and weight are a concern but the benifits out weigh the negatives.
As far as costs they are nearly identical when you look at everything being aftermarket and even weight if you go all aluminum vs all aluminum is honestly negligible in Offroad application.
There are prerunners that are 640ci making 900hp+ on Pemex (black) premium Rodger Norman red 1997 bodied beamed f150 prefab the 1275mile 2010 Baja 1000 start to finish 3 times!!!!
It did not give a shit!!

The reason these big names charge so much is the reason why there are Rolex watches that cost $100k or more. Because it’s a nice reliable product that people are willing to grossly overpay because of the name.

I get there is R&D that go into motors and all the small trade secret tips and tricks but I don’t see $80k for a motor.

When I refert to “not stressed” I mean that they don’t need high compression or high RPM to make the same HP numbers. The space in between bores is not super thin or piston skirts hanging below the bores cause piston rock. The oiling systems are better and 40 more years or R&D!

No replacement for displacement. With better heads the LS has really become a house hold name. But at that level 800-1200 N/A hp the big block wins for cost and reliability.
Take a few minutes and price it out. I did a spreadsheet a while back but not sure where it is.
Both blocks are $5k heads $3-$5k crank rods pistons pretty close to same cost. Etc.
 

J1 Trophy Truck

Vehicle Specs Wheelbase 124″ Track Width 92" Wheel Travel Front: 26″Rear: 30″ Suspension Front: Fox Shocks 2.5" x 14" coilover. Fox: 4.40" x 16 bypass Rear: Fox Shocks - 3.0" x 16" coilover. Fox Shocks 4.40" x 18" bypass. Fox Shocks 2.5" 4" bump stop Rear End CMS rear end housing Sway Bar Jimco...
www.jimcoracing.com www.jimcoracing.com
 
Transmission are pretty wild because everything is billet or 300m or custom cases and add under drives and billet 3500-4500stall converters.

If you want to shit your pants look at the mason motorsports AWD trophy truck stuff!!!! It’s is art!!
 

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A lot of teams refresh item and replace because the cost of those item are Pennie’s compared to total race cost with logistics and travel hotels etc!!
A top TT team might spend $250k-$350k on the Baja 1000 alone with all the chase crews and helicopters and fuel hotels etc. Most of those guys are paid crews and they have a lot of sponsor dollars in the line they don’t want an unprepared trans making it so they don’t finish.
 
Bebop said:
hahahahahahaha

"not stressed"
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I mean think of it. A larger displacement engine is not having to work as hard to make the same power. To gain hp in smaller displacement you need to add compression and RPM. Engine are just air pumps. You can increase efficiency to 98% but are limited by displacement. You take 364ci stock LS3 vs 454 LSX and naturally the engine will make more power with less ignition advance and rpm. Peak power also shifts to a much more useful range with bigger displacement. Peak HP and torque in the rpm range play a huge part. The rods are bigger decks taller bore spread larger and heads are bigger along with larger valvetrain.
If I was doing it again I might be apt to go BBC.
 
Ok so an all aluminum big block is roughly 550bs.
An LS3 is roughly 400lbs. So for an extra 150lbs the big block isn’t as bad of an option.

This is a cool side bar since the build pics are all up to date and there probably won’t be more for a week or so.

Let’s just say 900hp is the goal and we will limit to 540” since it’s pretty common on the big block. Vs 900 out of 440”+ LS both N/A
 
Just did google search for 900hp LS motor for sale this was first one
That popped up 900 HP Naturally Aspirated Aluminum LS Road Race Engine | Borowski Race Engines

900hp big block and this popped up.
www.nyesracingengines.com

555 Big Block Chevy 900HP Race Engine | Nyes Racing Engines

www.nyesracingengines.com www.nyesracingengines.com
It’s 14.5:1 so it’s E85 91 blend or 108 octane but it’s sub $20k with $3200 aluminum block option

You can build both LS and big block for sub $25-$30k with good enough parts. Realistically but the big block is going to be more robust and less strung out to make the power I feel.
 
Rockchump said:
So both big blocks and small blocks are used in TT’s in all honestly there is not good reason why those motor are that expensive. It’s maybe $15k-$20k in parts max. Maybe $30k with all the custom billet accessories and dry sump, 8stack and stuff.
Robby Gordon used modified cup car small blocks that recede to the moon. But most everyone used 500+” big blocks there are some small blocks running around now but most of the big name teams especially running mason or Gieser AWD are running 1100hp dual 4barrel or 8stack big blocks. Big block will be stronger and easier to make hp and torque more reliably. Yes physical size and weight are a concern but the benifits out weigh the negatives.
As far as costs they are nearly identical when you look at everything being aftermarket and even weight if you go all aluminum vs all aluminum is honestly negligible in Offroad application.
There are prerunners that are 640ci making 900hp+ on Pemex (black) premium Rodger Norman red 1997 bodied beamed f150 prefab the 1275mile 2010 Baja 1000 start to finish 3 times!!!!
It did not give a shit!!

The reason these big names charge so much is the reason why there are Rolex watches that cost $100k or more. Because it’s a nice reliable product that people are willing to grossly overpay because of the name.

I get there is R&D that go into motors and all the small trade secret tips and tricks but I don’t see $80k for a motor.

When I refert to “not stressed” I mean that they don’t need high compression or high RPM to make the same HP numbers. The space in between bores is not super thin or piston skirts hanging below the bores cause piston rock. The oiling systems are better and 40 more years or R&D!

No replacement for displacement. With better heads the LS has really become a house hold name. But at that level 800-1200 N/A hp the big block wins for cost and reliability.
Take a few minutes and price it out. I did a spreadsheet a while back but not sure where it is.
Both blocks are $5k heads $3-$5k crank rods pistons pretty close to same cost. Etc.
Click to expand...

Well said. I have alot of those same thoughts especially when it comes to race engine prices. I get paying for quality but being absolutely fucked for quality is not for a normal racers budget.

Back in the late 90s and early 2000s we were racing Pro Stock/Super Late Model pavement circle track cars up in New England. Our 358ci race legal engines were retardedly expensive because I dont know why....

You got a 4 bolt block, a good 36lb crank, Crower steel rods, Weisco flat top pistons, solid non roller cam, unported GM Bowtie heads, stud mount rockers an Edelbrock performer dual plane intake and a spec 350cfm 2bbl Holley carb that was slightly modified per the rules. Heads and intake were angle milled to death to get the compression up to a respectable level and they were wet sump engines.

412hp at the crank for $27,000.... :eek:

We were lucky enough to have an engine sponsor (close friend of my uncle) that built top of the line circle track engines in our area so we got unbelievable deals and use of experimental/gray area engines and parts but the $27k price tags always blew my mind.
 
Rockchump said:
Realistically but the big block is going to be more robust and less strung out to make the power I feel.
Click to expand...
I'm not arguiying the BBC isn't as stressed as an LS for the same power levels.
But saying that any N/A engine that's making 900hp isn't stressed and is living a good life under racing conditions is what I thought was funny.
 
How bout a factroy option?:flipoff2: Probably has a warranty too.:flipoff2::flipoff2:


www.gmperformancemotor.com

ZZ632/1000 Chevrolet Performance Big Block

Check out the deal on ZZ632/1000 Chevrolet Performance Big Block at GM Performance Motor
www.gmperformancemotor.com


Here's the parts list..... 1004hp / 876ft/lbs Runs on pump gas.

TECH SPECS
Part Number: 19432060
Engine Type: Chevy Tall-Deck Big-Block V-8
Displacement (cu in): 632
Bore x Stroke (in / mm): 4.600 x 4.750
Block (P/N 19366599): Cast iron Bowtie with 4-bolt main caps – tall deck
Crankshaft (P/N 19366600): Forged 4340 steel
Connecting Rods (P/N 19432392): Forged steel H-beam
Pistons (P/N 19366601): Forged aluminum 2618 alloy
Intake Manifold (P/N 19366614): Aluminum high-rise single-plane
Throttle Body (P/N 19366624): 4500-style
Fuel Injectors (P/N 19432057): 86-lb/hr
Camshaft Type (P/N 19432531): Billet steel hydraulic roller
Valve Lift (in): 0.780 intake / 0.782 exhaust
Camshaft Duration (@ 0.050 in): 270º intake / 285º exhaust
Cylinder Heads (P/N 19431810): Aluminum spread-port; 70cc chambers – RS-X design
Valve Size (in): 2.450 intake / 1.800 exhaust, titanium (5/16-in stem OD)
Ignition Type: 58X crank-triggered, coil-near-plug
Compression Ratio: 12.0:1 (nominal)
Rocker Arms (P/N 19431272): Forged aluminum; roller-style
Rocker Arm Ratio: 1.8:1 (shaft-mount)
Water Pump (P/N 14058915): Aluminum
Oil Pan (P/N 19366604): Steel 8-quart
Recommended Fuel: Premium pump (93 octane or higher)
Maximum Recommended RPM: 7,000 rpm
Balanced: Internal


Substitute the iron block for an aluminum one to save some weight and away you go. GM spent years developing this engine.
 
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