Blue Jeep build

[SLOWPOKE693]

I'm so confused...... What intake is on this thing, aftermarket? I thought this was a crate motor.


This seems like a waste of time and I don't think it's going to make a shit bit of a noticable difference hp wise unless you only plan to drive it around on the street at high speed. Also, when you are rock crawling that aluminum box and the hood are going to heat soak and the engine is going to be sucking hot air anyway. Every air box I've ever put on a circle track car was made of either fiberglass or carbon fiber and was sealed to a fiberglass hood. I know the old cup cars had metal hoods but the air boxes were still composite and not made from aluminum because of heat soak concerns.

What's going to keep the water out when you inevitably pull a JRX4 and bomb through a water crossing and it hits the windshield like a wave?

 

[gt1guy]

I'm sure the single plane low volume intake will make less tq and more hp than the factory manifold, as it's already been proven many many times on multiple dynos.

I can even find you the graphs if you'd like.

Would said manifold make your life easier ? Absolutely.

No denial it would make life easier. But at this point I'm not far from being done with the path I took. I have aluminum sheet, filler rod and a full bottle of argon. I don't want to buy another manifold.

I'm being stubborn more than anything else to be honest.

 

[gt1guy]

I'm so confused...... What intake is on this thing, aftermarket? I thought this was a crate motor.


This seems like a waste of time and I don't think it's going to make a shit bit of a noticable difference hp wise unless you only plan to drive it around on the street at high speed. Also, when you are rock crawling that aluminum box and the hood are going to heat soak and the engine is going to be sucking hot air anyway. Every air box I've ever put on a circle track car was made of either fiberglass or carbon fiber and was sealed to a fiberglass hood. I know the old cup cars had metal hoods but the air boxes were still composite and not made from aluminum because of heat soak concerns.

What's going to keep the water out when you inevitably pull a JRX4 and bomb through a water crossing and it hits the windshield like a wave?

It a FAST LSX-R intake. Not much different in size than the stock one.

Not looking for HP gains. The only reason for this is to not suck hot air out of a very cramped engine compartment. From about 6" forward of the back of the hood it starts to taper in, the front of the hood is 16" narrower than stock. That's a lot of room just gone. To get a proper sized radiator stuffed in there, it had to lean back at 30*. There goes more room. So when I say it's cramped it's not an understatement.

Yes, the airbox is aluminum and can absorb heat. I do plan to cover it with that gold reflective insulation shit. Supposed to work good and is about all I can do. The intake manifold under it is composite (plastic) and the hood above will be composite (fiberglass).

Bombing a river JRX4 style?....................don't do that. If I have to do that, I'm being chased by the cops.
The airbox ends at the front of the cowl at the bottom of the windshield. That cowl is slotted like the grill and drains down behind the fenders on the sides. The bottom end of the airbox sits a little higher than the cowl.....link a 1/4", so there's a gap. I think it will be fine for rain and maybe a beginner class JRX4. Really, you can drown anything if you try hard enough.

I think you just voodooed me and I'm going to hydro lock the engine the first time I use the windshield washers.


In the end, if this works, nobody will care and if it doesn't, the abuse will be glorious.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

It a FAST LSX-R intake. Not much different in size than the stock one.


I think you just voodooed me and I'm going to hydro lock the engine the first time I use the windshield washers.

Ha, I'm even more confused now. I remember the FAST intake but thought you may have swapped it out for an EFI converted single plane intake to run that air box. So you're running a 90° elbow from the TB into the bottom of the airbox and putting a filter on top, inside the air box? I need to go back a couple of pages and reread, I must have missed some parts of this air box build.

Think of the windshield squirters as meth injection and have the computer crank up the timing every time you push the button. Free horsepower!

 

[1Sinner]

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone on here is one.... or has one..... or something like that. It'll work fine, you may not pull top horsepower, but for this application it will serve its purpose as long as it's sealed and you don't play submarine.

 

[gt1guy]

Ha, I'm even more confused now. I remember the FAST intake but thought you may have swapped it out for an EFI converted single plane intake to run that air box. So you're running a 90° elbow from the TB into the bottom of the airbox and putting a filter on top, inside the air box? I need to go back a couple of pages and reread, I must have missed some parts of this air box build.

Think of the windshield squirters as meth injection and have the computer crank up the timing every time you push the button. Free horsepower!

So you're running a 90° elbow from the TB into the bottom of the airbox and putting a filter on top, inside the air box?

Yes. Correct. But it's more like a big 180*

but thought you may have swapped it out for an EFI converted single plane intake to run that air box.

That didn't happen. No matter how hard Bebop tried to show me the light, spoon feed me an easier way and save me a lot of time and energy..............................I have held my ground and not buckled to common sense and good advice.

 

[gt1guy]

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone on here is one.... or has one..... or something like that. It'll work fine, you may not pull top horsepower, but for this application it will serve its purpose as long as it's sealed and you don't play submarine.

I enjoy it. Everyone throwing out ideas, trying to help. That's what makes this place great.

I know for 100% that my Jeep will be a better rig because of the advice/ideas I got from all you folks here.

That said, if this air box is a giant fail, it's going to sting a bit and I probably have to eat a turd.

 

[Bebop]

Just put a 180 box on the tb and send it. It'll be fine.

 

[gt1guy]

Ok, so where were we? We had some half ass marks where things were supposed to go and a giant unwanted hole running where I didn't want it.

Filled in the unwanted part of the of the hole and flap wheeled down all the extra weld sticking up.

Welded in the filler piece, smoothed it out and double checked the marks for the OD ans ID of the filter. I left 3/8" sticking inside the ID of the filter.

Here's what we end up with.

Next up was cutting out a 3/8" wide piece and a 1 5/8" wide piece. The 3/8" piece will sit right on top of the hole (to keep the filter from moving around). And the 1 5/8" goes on the bottom of the hole. It's just to stiffen up where the air filter sit. It covers the 3/8" space to the filter ID and goes 3/8" past the OD of the filter.

Just showing how the 3/8" piece will hold the filter. I always glue filters down anyway.

A few clamps later and the oval rings are held in place.

3/8" (filter) side

1 5/8" side.

Next up is adding a bunch of Clecos so I can get rid of the clamps. Then I can run a file around the cut out hole until all three pieces are perfectly flush then fuse weld all three pieces together with the tig. I think some plug welds around the OD's of both pieces will be fine to hold it all together......without taking the chance of warping the fuck out of it and beating it with a hammer for two hours to get it flat again.

Right now its perfectly flat cause I already beat on it for hours.

Last bit is adding the part that the filter lid screws down on. I think I can beat the old one flat and rebend it.

 

[Treefrog]

Ok, so where were we? We had some half ass marks where things were supposed to go and a giant unwanted hole running where I didn't want it.

Filled in the unwanted part of the of the hole and flap wheeled down all the extra weld sticking up.

Welded in the filler piece, smoothed it out and double checked the marks for the OD ans ID of the filter. I left 3/8" sticking inside the ID of the filter.

Here's what we end up with.

Next up was cutting out a 3/8" wide piece and a 1 5/8" wide piece. The 3/8" piece will sit right on top of the hole (to keep the filter from moving around). And the 1 5/8" goes on the bottom of the hole. It's just to stiffen up where the air filter sit. It covers the 3/8" space to the filter ID and goes 3/8" past the OD of the filter.

Just showing how the 3/8" piece will hold the filter. I always glue filters down anyway.

A few clamps later and the oval rings are held in place.

3/8" (filter) side

1 5/8" side.

Next up is adding a bunch of Clecos so I can get rid of the clamps. Then I can run a file around the cut out hole until all three pieces are perfectly flush then fuse weld all three pieces together with the tig. I think some plug welds around the OD's of both pieces will be fine to hold it all together......without taking the chance of warping the fuck out of it and beating it with a hammer for two hours to get it flat again.

Right now its perfectly flat cause I already beat on it for hours.

Last bit is adding the part that the filter lid screws down on. I think I can beat the old one flat and rebend it.

Why not rivet them together? Keeps it flat and you are already putting in holes for Clecos.

 

[gt1guy]

Why not rivet them together? Keeps it flat and you are already putting in holes for Clecos.

The thought never crossed my mind to be honest. I have boxes of alum rivets too.

 

[gt1guy]

Clecos holding the three pieces together.

Flushed down the three pieces until they were all even. Then welded them all together.

I did end up putting clecos around the outside of the wider ring right after the first tack on the inside. It was instantly obvious it would have ended up with a giant gap. I just did a few stitch welds around the outside of the bigger ring on the bottoms side.

 

[gt1guy]

Forgot to show my fuckups yesterday. Hard to see if your not looking.

I had sanded down my booger welds on the outside of box a while back. Seems I got a bit aggressive in a couple spots.

You can see the lines of separation in the red circles. That's gonna have to be fixed before I can move forward.

I can get 3, 4" of beautiful beads........after that it starts going sideways. I would love nothing more than to have pretty welds all over this thing........unfortunately, I always have to end up using the "bead sculpting" method with the sander.

 

[gt1guy]

Just finished rewelding the sides of the box. Those two places I circled were only where there was separation, there were a few others just waiting for some heat to pass by.
Chasing hole was fun

But in the end all I really did was piss myself off.

Apparently I can actually do this...

While the rest looks like this....

This is why I generally use bead sculpting as my go to

 

[Right_side_up]

Hey man sweet build! Just read through it while I’m laid up recovering from surgery.

One thing I thought about is you were talking about where to mount coils? Seems like you would have plenty of room if you mounted them on the sides of that air box.

Otherwise keep up the good work! Will be cool to see it done!

 

[gt1guy]

Hey man sweet build! Just read through it while I’m laid up recovering from surgery.

One thing I thought about is you were talking about where to mount coils? Seems like you would have plenty of room if you mounted them on the sides of that air box.

Otherwise keep up the good work! Will be cool to see it done!

Thank you Sir. Hope you heal up quick.

Never thought about it but, it might be a cool build thread when you're all hopped up on pain killers

I've been thinking about possibly mounting the coils on the air box. I still have to replace a cross bar I had running between the top of the intake manifold and the old version of the air box. You can see it running under the air box. It tied the sides of the engine cage together. So I really need to replace that strength

This is what I'm thinking about doing now.

The yellow squares on either side of the back of the air box at the firewall would be continuous piece of flat bar welded to the firewall.

The red lines would be 1.75" tube running from the flat bar to the shock mounts.

The little shortish lines would be where the old cross bar ties into the new red line bars.

Then the orange squiggly lines would be where the old bar is now gone.


At that point I'll have more options on where to mount the coils. Which the air box might still be the best choice.

 

[gt1guy]

Why not rivet them together? Keeps it flat and you are already putting in holes for Clecos.

I did use 4 rivets today. Had to modify the gizmo that the air filter lid bolts down to. It had different length legs because of the way it sat. Basically had to beat it all flat, trim it up some and re-bend it to fit.

Don't have any pictures but the old version sat on top on the same piece as the filter. Then put a backing piece on the back side and riveted them together.

This time the filter lid mounts on the bottom side of the piece the filter sits on. Made new backing pieces that ran to the lid mount. Riveted everything together. except this time I was able to weld the backing pieces to the lid mount.

Before I set the rivets and welded the backing piece to the lid mount. But you get the idea. I could only get right up to the edge of the 3"8 ring since that's where the filter sits.

And since I know the busted off pieces of the anvils can and will sometimes fall out of the rivet body, I welded the ends of the splayed out rivet body shut. 1. because they would have access to get into the engine. 2. I know my luck.

 

[csutton7]

Smart move on the rivet weld!!

 

[gt1guy]

Smart move on the rivet weld!!

Many years ago I did a lot HVAC duct work on Navy boats at the ship yards. Thousands of rivets. That's when I learned the the anvil parts will fall out all the time. That was just from hearing them fall out as soon as the rivet popped.

No way was I taking a chance of a stupid piece of metal taking a trip through the engine. Probably already have enough grinder dist to help seat the rings.

 

[Bebop]

Thank you Sir. Hope you heal up quick.

Never thought about it but, it might be a cool build thread when you're all hopped up on pain killers

I've been thinking about possibly mounting the coils on the air box. I still have to replace a cross bar I had running between the top of the intake manifold and the old version of the air box. You can see it running under the air box. It tied the sides of the engine cage together. So I really need to replace that strength

This is what I'm thinking about doing now.

The yellow squares on either side of the back of the air box at the firewall would be continuous piece of flat bar welded to the firewall.

The red lines would be 1.75" tube running from the flat bar to the shock mounts.

The little shortish lines would be where the old cross bar ties into the new red line bars.

Then the orange squiggly lines would be where the old bar is now gone.


At that point I'll have more options on where to mount the coils. Which the air box might still be the best choice.

WTF
The only problem with running a 4150 flange intake was the stupid bar and now it's gone.

LMAO

 

[gt1guy]

WTF
The only problem with running a 4150 flange intake was the stupid bar and now it's gone.

LMAO

Crazy isn't it. I tried a few times to tell you I was being stubborn. Believe me now?


The loss in Low/mid hp/tq helped in my stubbornness, not going to lie about that. I don't give a fuck about peak power. The only place those manifolds gain over what I have is above 4-5K. They give up power below it.......which happens to be the exact spot a big heavy pig like I have wants more power. I know it, you know it, the drag racers who don't care, know it and the circle track guys who have to use it, or run sealed engines.....well, they don't have a choice. And the guys going for the old school look probably don't care.

Also, the manifold I'm using is a composite (probably plastic), it doesn't heat soak. The big alum single plane does heat soak. Now the air box I'm making is sheet alum that, yes, can heat soak. Which is why I'm covering it in this......

https://www.designengineering.com/content/sell/010919.pdf

The hood is a composite that doesn't heat soak either. So I end up with a non-heat soaking manifold, an air box that reflects heat (infrared radiation) away from it and sucks air from outside the engine compartment and non-heat soaking hood.

We also can't forget that if I want to move the power around a bit, I can change the runner lengths with the FAST intake.


So yes, I'm still being stubborn, but there's a tiny bit of thought behind it too. Maybe one day I'll figure out multi piece molds and will do a composite air box.

 

[Bebop]

Or, you can just live with the 30ft/lbs loss at 3000 and move on with your life

 

[gt1guy]

Or, you can just live with the 30ft/lbs loss at 3000 and move on with your life

I just dug through the Hot Rod LS3 intake manifold shootout. All done on the same engine. Had a slightly healthier came in it than I have.

Stock LS3 manifold:
Peak HP 580 @6500
Peak Tq 527 @5300
Avg HP between 3100-7000 = 468
Avg Tq between 3100-7000 = 485
Tq @4000 = 486

FAST LSX-R (med length runners)
Peak HP 593 @6800
Peak Tq 512 @ 5300
Avg HP between 3100-7000 = 459
Avg Tq between 3100-7000 = 474
Tq @ 4000 = 453

FAST LSX-R (short length runners)
Peak HP 603 @ 7000
Peak Tq 496 @ 5300
Avg HP between 3100-7000 = 449
Avg Tq between 3100-7000 = 462
Tq @ 4000 = 447

Holley mid rise with dual 4150 TB's
Peak HP 557 @ 6800
Peak Tq 507 @5300
Avg HP between 3100-7000 = 455
Avg Tq between 3100-7000 = 471
Tq @ 4000 = 469

Edelbrock Vic Jr 4150
Peak HP 600 @ 6900
Peak Tq 503 @ 5400
Avg HP 3100-7000 = 452
Avg Tq 3100-7000 = 451
Tq @ 4000 = 451

Edelbrock Super Vic 4150
Peak HP 601 @ 6900
Peak Tq 500 @ 5500
Avg HP 3100-7000 = 450
Avg Tq 3100-7000 = 449
Tq @ 4000 = 449

Edelbrock super Vic 4500 w/Assufab4500 TB
Peak HP 613 @ 6600
Peak Tq 504 @ 5700
Avg HP 3100-7000 = 455
Avg Tq 3100-7000 = 450
Tq @ 4000 = 450


According to that shootout I learned two things.

1. It's actually hard to beat the factory intake. They certainly did their homework.

2. I'm within a couple HP/TQ above or below the manifold you're pushing.........on the low end and on the top end. There sure ain't no double digit difference.

 

[gt1guy]

Got the crew here removing all the fucked up shop. Unwanted skylight is way bigger right now.

And it's supposed to rain tomorrow.

 

[Bebop]

I just dug through the Hot Rod LS3 intake manifold shootout. All done on the same engine. Had a slightly healthier came in it than I have.

Stock LS3 manifold:
Peak HP 580 @6500
Peak Tq 527 @5300
Avg HP between 3100-7000 = 468
Avg Tq between 3100-7000 = 485
Tq @4000 = 486

FAST LSX-R (med length runners)
Peak HP 593 @6800
Peak Tq 512 @ 5300
Avg HP between 3100-7000 = 459
Avg Tq between 3100-7000 = 474
Tq @ 4000 = 453

FAST LSX-R (short length runners)
Peak HP 603 @ 7000
Peak Tq 496 @ 5300
Avg HP between 3100-7000 = 449
Avg Tq between 3100-7000 = 462
Tq @ 4000 = 447

Holley mid rise with dual 4150 TB's
Peak HP 557 @ 6800
Peak Tq 507 @5300
Avg HP between 3100-7000 = 455
Avg Tq between 3100-7000 = 471
Tq @ 4000 = 469

Edelbrock Vic Jr 4150
Peak HP 600 @ 6900
Peak Tq 503 @ 5400
Avg HP 3100-7000 = 452
Avg Tq 3100-7000 = 451
Tq @ 4000 = 451

Edelbrock Super Vic 4150
Peak HP 601 @ 6900
Peak Tq 500 @ 5500
Avg HP 3100-7000 = 450
Avg Tq 3100-7000 = 449
Tq @ 4000 = 449

Edelbrock super Vic 4500 w/Assufab4500 TB
Peak HP 613 @ 6600
Peak Tq 504 @ 5700
Avg HP 3100-7000 = 455
Avg Tq 3100-7000 = 450
Tq @ 4000 = 450


According to that shootout I learned two things.

1. It's actually hard to beat the factory intake. They certainly did their homework.

2. I'm within a couple HP/TQ above or below the manifold you're pushing.........on the low end and on the top end. There sure ain't no double digit difference.

in light of this, why keep the shitty Fast manifold ?

 

[gt1guy]

in light of this, why keep the shitty Fast manifold ?

Oh for fuck sake............................that's a good question

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I thought the Trailblazer SS intakes were the ones to have if running a stocker, why did they test an LS3 intake?

 

[Bebop]

I thought the Trailblazer SS intakes were the ones to have if running a stocker, why did they test an LS3 intake?

TBSS is for cathedral port heads.

LS3 have rec port heads. There is very few manifolds that will outperform the OEM LS3 with a close to factory compression ratio, displacement and a non stupid cam.

 

[Bebop]

Oh for fuck sake............................that's a good question

I'm serious.

Ain't got no dog in this fight, it's your car.

Just get the dang lokar setup, make a box around the filter to get your ram air intake if that makes you happy and move on.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Have you ever stopped and asked yourself why you don't see cowl induction or air boxes on off road vehicles? It's either Donaldson canister setups or big ass air filters with pre-filters out in the open with rock guards around the front.

I'd be willing to bet money that your cowl induction setup nets you zero gain over just sticking a cone filter on the end of a 180° elbow off the TB in every use case except for possibly going down the highway. And even then I bet it so minimal due to air movement in the engine compartment it's not even noticeable.