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Alec Baldwin Shot a Lady

ExWrench said:
. . . and that's why Producer AB should have mandated that they follow the established protocols wherein only firearms-savvy folks (e.g., set armorer) should be allowed to give firearms to the un-savvy, gun-hating actor who chooses to handle guns to make his living (because his anti-gun principles don't extend as far as refusing to use them). Chain-of-custody was violated, and AB lives at both ends of that responsibility tree.
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I think he's only going to escape one end, unfortunately it's the more important end.
 
Roc Doc said:
thus that's why they have an armorer or weapons master or whatever they're calling it on a given set, and that's why the actors put their trust into them, I don't agree with it with all the basic firearms safety rules that get violated, but that's how it is.
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You are clueless about how things work in the industry. This is the first gun related accident in almost 30 years, how many millions of blanks do you think have been safely fired in that time frame?
 
Roc Doc said:
And yet a woman is dead and another injured. You see no room for improvement?
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Had the general recognized industry standards been followed this would not have happened.
Hence the standards work and the issue is people not following them.
No different than if he had run a stop sign, tboned a car and killed the driver in the crash.
The issue is not the rules, it's the rules not being followed.

Aaron Z
 
aczlan said:
Had the general recognized industry standards been followed this would not have happened.
Hence the standards work and the issue is people not following them.
No different than if he had run a stop sign, tboned a car and killed the driver in the crash.
The issue is not the rules, it's the rules not being followed.

Aaron Z
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This sounds a lot like "if you check every gun every time well then good for you" :laughing:
 
Roc Doc said:
And yet a woman is dead and another injured. You see no room for improvement?
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There is always room for improvement in everything we do. That doesn't change the fact the producers on Rust chose not to spend the $1000/day it takes to hire a qualified armorer. That only covers pay, add in 35% fringe plus housing, per diem, travel pay and idle pay for the days off. The costs add up to bring in a pro but, you get what you pay for! They made a conscience decision to skimp on safety, this is the result. The protocols are in place and work when followed.
aczlan said:
Had the general recognized industry standards been followed this would not have happened.
Hence the standards work and the issue is people not following them.
No different than if he had run a stop sign, tboned a car and killed the driver in the crash.
The issue is not the rules, it's the rules not being followed.

Aaron Z
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Exactly!

east_beast said:
This sounds a lot like "if you check every gun every time well then good for you" :laughing:
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That's actually what the qualified people do, every take!
 
Firstram said:
You are clueless about how things work in the industry. This is the first gun related accident in almost 30 years, how many millions of blanks do you think have been safely fired in that time frame?
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In the class I recently took they discussed 4 firearm related deaths on film sets, I asked and was told as far as they knew that is all that have been recorded, I would have thought going back 100 years there would have been far more but they were pretty firm on that. I also asked if they had any idea how many blank rounds have been fired over the years and their answer was Billions. They cited one show that I have never heard and can't remember as having used millions on its own.

Doc Clueless sure has a lot of insight for someone who knows so little . If he was a batter he would be hitting about .001
 
east_beast said:
This sounds a lot like "if you check every gun every time well then good for you" :laughing:
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Not really. You only need to check the gun if you are goin* to be pointing it at people or pulling the trigger/hammer. If you don’t check it when you point it in the air, could be embarrassing, but you won’t go to jail.
 
WaterH said:
If you don’t check it when you point it in the air, could be embarrassing, but you won’t go to jail.
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I saw a high maintenance actor do that once. He was in a bitchy mood so he pointed it up and let it rip, that added 20 min to the day.
 
ChiScouter said:
In the class I recently took they discussed 4 firearm related deaths on film sets, I asked and was told as far as they knew that is all that have been recorded, I would have thought going back 100 years there would have been far more but they were pretty firm on that. I also asked if they had any idea how many blank rounds have been fired over the years and their answer was Billions. They cited one show that I have never heard and can't remember as having used millions on its own.

Doc Clueless sure has a lot of insight for someone who knows so little . If he was a batter he would be hitting about .001
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The A team TV show had to be up there in amount of blanks fired.
 
One of the guys on my crew is an armorer out of ISS, he's working on getting us in on that class.
 
east_beast said:
This sounds a lot like "if you check every gun every time well then good for you" :laughing:
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Shocking isn't it? Checking what could potentially be a deadly weapon each and every time before pointing it at someone. It's a extremely strange concept. :shaking:
Firstram said:
That's actually what the qualified people do, every take!
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I never would have guessed :eek:

Aaron Z
 
ChiScouter said:
In the class I recently took they discussed 4 firearm related deaths on film sets, I asked and was told as far as they knew that is all that have been recorded, I would have thought going back 100 years there would have been far more but they were pretty firm on that. I also asked if they had any idea how many blank rounds have been fired over the years and their answer was Billions. They cited one show that I have never heard and can't remember as having used millions on its own.

Doc Clueless sure has a lot of insight for someone who knows so little . If he was a batter he would be hitting about .001
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And what is it exactly that you do in the film industry?

Rent-a-cop?
Craft Service?
Gaffer?
 
Two Comments related to the above discussion:

He handed over his cell phone. Shouldn't that have been on day one ? About 3 months ago ? YGTBSM How many calls and deletes since then ? What if he had "lost it" or dropped it into a garbage disposal by accident or it was simply stolen. Fucking A'

Is this the case and cartridge we are talking about ? I cant tell how far a spec bullet is recessed from the end of the cylinder. Is it easy to see which round is loaded ?

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf
 

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Roc Doc said:
And what is it exactly that you do in the film industry?

Rent-a-cop?
Craft Service?
Gaffer?
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Asking if I am a rent a cop is absurd for reasons that you probably don't know and reinforces your compete lack of knowledge about any of this. Even an experienced Crafty who is seldom actually on the set would know more and speculate less than you. When you say Gaffer do you mean the chief lighting technician on the show or do you have your own definition for that? Id ask where you got your knowledge but you have not exhibited any.




i
 
Firstram said:
You are clueless about how things work in the industry. This is the first gun related accident in almost 30 years, how many millions of blanks do you think have been safely fired in that time frame?
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how many people have to die before a change is made to improve things?

Firstram said:
There is always room for improvement in everything we do. That doesn't change the fact the producers on Rust chose not to spend the $1000/day it takes to hire a qualified armorer. That only covers pay, add in 35% fringe plus housing, per diem, travel pay and idle pay for the days off. The costs add up to bring in a pro but, you get what you pay for! They made a conscience decision to skimp on safety, this is the result. The protocols are in place and work when followed.

Exactly!


That's actually what the qualified people do, every take!
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perhaps the change is cutting corners. You know what? Maybe the industry needs a qualified armorer on every set and without it no guns are allowed. Maybe Hollywood should just cut the whole gun thing out and go CGI. These protocols you speak of didn’t work and the industry is acting like this is the rarest thing so no one needs to get worked up. Even from the beginning it wasn’t the shooters fault. All on the armorer so there is change necessary.
 
RunningProblem said:
how many people have to die before a change is made to improve things?

I would not take a bet on this but I was told by someone very deep in the firearm side of the business that there have been 4 deaths since the advent of film and billions of blanks fired. Each one of them was because people did not follow industry practices and caused changes to the way things are done and I expect the latest will also. If you can find conflicting information please post it up.
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RunningProblem said:
These protocols you speak of didn’t work . . .
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. . . because they were not followed.

That makes it an operational failure, not a systemic one. If they'd followed the protocols, nobody would've ended up leaking. The idjuts that didn't follow the existing rules need to be held accountable rather than making a whole new set of redundant or extraneous rules so folks will feel like they "did something" to fix this.
 
aczlan said:
Had the general recognized industry standards been followed this would not have happened.
Hence the standards work and the issue is people not following them.
No different than if he had run a stop sign, tboned a car and killed the driver in the crash.
The issue is not the rules, it's the rules not being followed.

Aaron Z
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Agreed. However I would be more likely to accept this as a real cause if it did not have a person that has apparently been in films forever that did it the correct way. When he failed to ensure a proper set of precautions were followed. But nopw this wasn’t a small independent cast with zero money or experience behind it. This had Ass Baldwin in charge of a large percentage of it and probably with his ego outspoken about all of it. Rules were not followed and people died.

If anyone thinks there is not some preferential towards Baldwin because of who he is your crazy. If this was one of us filming an independent we would be super fucked. Even the most left amongst us.

He will probably face zero real criminal charges. Get fucked civilly, and then be given many well paying gigs going forward to help get poor alec back on his feet.
 
RunningProblem said:
Maybe the industry needs a qualified armorer on every set and without it no guns are allowed.
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Her father Thell was an armorer, I don't know anyone who would consider her qualified.

RunningProblem said:
These protocols you speak of didn’t work and the industry is acting like this is the rarest thing so no one needs to get worked up. Even from the beginning it wasn’t the shooters fault. All on the armorer so there is change necessary.
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These protocols work just fine if they're followed and I do hope they successfully prosecute the responsible parties. What happened is inexcusable and can't be allowed to happen again. I'm not as cavalier about this as you think, I do earn a living working next to guns on set and I can tell you firsthand that safety is taken very seriously. Most of the comments here are just opinions posted by people who mean well but have no clue how it's actually handled. Except the opinions about Alec, he's a dick!
 
ChiScouter said:
Asking if I am a rent a cop is absurd for reasons that you probably don't know and reinforces your compete lack of knowledge about any of this. Even an experienced Crafty who is seldom actually on the set would know more and speculate less than you. When you say Gaffer do you mean the chief lighting technician on the show or do you have your own definition for that? Id ask where you got your knowledge but you have not exhibited any.




i
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OK, got it, you don't have the balls to actually tell us what you do that makes you such a gotdamn self appointed authority.

Were you there on set?

Just because you work in a grocery store doesn't mean you know how tater-tots ate made.:flipoff2:
 
Firstram said:
There is always room for improvement in everything we do. That doesn't change the fact the producers on Rust chose not to spend the $1000/day it takes to hire a qualified armorer. That only covers pay, add in 35% fringe plus housing, per diem, travel pay and idle pay for the days off. The costs add up to bring in a pro but, you get what you pay for! They made a conscience decision to skimp on safety, this is the result. The protocols are in place and work when followed.
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That's been clear since the first reports of this incident happened. Crew walkouts over lodging, crew complaints on lack of safety, etc., it's no doubt this was a cheap production, and unfortunately two of the crew paid the price.
 
Roc Doc said:
OK, got it, you don't have the balls to actually tell us what you do that makes you such a gotdamn self appointed authority.

Were you there on set?

Just because you work in a grocery store doesn't mean you know how tater-tots ate made.:flipoff2:
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I have spent thousands of hours on the set. I have been part of the firearms handling group on several productions, and was given very specific instructions on what my role was. I have listened to lots of safety meetings when firearms were present and been given hard copies of the guidelines to read every time. I have observed many different Armors handle and present firearms on the set. I know how serious everyone has been when firearms have been on set. This doesn't make me a self appointed expert, or even an expert but I have seen it done correctly more times than I could hope to remember.
Aside from the firearms, I have seen how toxic productions can be when you have difficult people in key positions. I have seen corners cut with low budget productions.
Im not a big authority on this but this thread is currently about 29 pages long and it seems like every few pages it starts over with stupid shit that has already been explained. There was a shit load of good and idiotic info that was deleted in some sort of board fart earlier in the thread. I corrected and explained stupid shit you said a number of times and have grown tired of it so now I just poke fun at you as you come up with more baseless blather. I have a lot of posts here, many of them in direct contradiction to yours, if you want to call out my inaccuracies please do that. Until then this thread would be a lot smarter without your posts.
Are you the guy who pointed out going to film school, being a sound guy and spending a few days on a film set as the source of your knowledge? What is your experience with all of this?
 
Firstram said:
Her father Thell was an armorer, I don't know anyone who would consider her qualified.


These protocols work just fine if they're followed and I do hope they successfully prosecute the responsible parties. What happened is inexcusable and can't be allowed to happen again. I'm not as cavalier about this as you think, I do earn a living working next to guns on set and I can tell you firsthand that safety is taken very seriously. Most of the comments here are just opinions posted by people who mean well but have no clue how it's actually handled. Except the opinions about Alec, he's a dick!
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To the unfamiliar this was a tier 2 production. Decades ago the unions had one rate as time went on people started doing lower budget stuff and going non union. In order to try to keep the industry about a union workforce the unions started coming up with different wage rules and tiers depending on the type of production and budget. The rule with tier 2 is that whatever the ceiling is if they go over it they need to move up to the next wage scale and retroactively pay everyone. So if they go over budget then they go over budget BIG. I once did a tier 2 that went over budget and got a check over 4k. So these people are trying to skimp on everything and hope for the best Shame on the union for allowing someone like her to first be an Armor and second for her to wear a prop assistant and armor hats. I have only done 1 tier 2 and decades ago 1 non union production low budget which had enough money for Joe Peshi but not enough to feed us anything but pizza. I have done probably a dozen other low budget projects. From my experiences they tend to be run by very inexperienced people who are not realistic about their budget vs their ambition and goals and make terrible decisions on what to actually spend their money on. The Armor situation on this is a direct result. Then there is the industry wide push for women to be in charge of everything they can put them in the spirit of wokeness no matter the outcome
 
I just think it’s funny how you guys keep arguing about “the industry”.

In the oil industry, if you point a gun at someone and kill them, you go to jail. You can claim you thought it was unloaded or someone told you it was unloaded, but you are going to have to prove it.

In the logging industry, if you point a gun at someone and kill them, you go to jail. You can claim you thought it was unloaded or someone told you it was unloaded, but you are going to have to prove it.

In the fishing industry, if you point a gun at someone and kill them, you go to jail. You can claim you thought it was unloaded or someone told you it was unloaded, but you are going to have to prove it.

Its negligence in handling the gun. Where you are and what you’re doing is not relevant. You might get off, but the police should not assume you’re innocent. You might shift some blame, but you pulled the trigger.
 
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