99-04 Dana 60 & 50 Tech

[fl0w3n]

My best guess would be similar with straight wheels. Turned, I give the edge to the D44 RCV joints. That’s a really hard one to call though. The 1480 joint strength is going to somewhat depend on the condition of the shaft ears…

That’s what I figure

My stupid train of thought was finding used JK 44 RCVs, I’ve seen them for $800 locally, and changing the stub shaft out to use in a D50. Seems like a waste of effort.

 

[Rangerrod]

Since I posted on the 05+ I’ll repost here so some one searching can find it. Redrilling hubs snd rotors using motobilt drill jig. I drilled out the holes and bought some drill bushings since it will get some use in the future.

I drilled using 39/64” drill .609. Using dorman 610-347 9/16-18 wheel studs.

 

[Adamwende]

you guys need to go back to your 05+ thread

I can’t see the need to go to 40 spline with 1480 joint. If you need to go there you’re running drive flanges and 1550 joints so 05+ it is.

Just about every Reddot in the planet runs 1480.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Just about every Reddot in the planet runs 1480.

I was just talking to someone about this, with the availability of 05+ these days, people seem to think that 1480 stuff isn't good all of a sudden? Short of rock bouncers, I doubt almost anyone will exceed 1480 capability.

 

[TrailTamer]

There’s too many factors in a typical front steering axle. Beside maybe a dragster where both tires will have almost equal amount of traction and little to no steering at all time and metal fatigue is less of a concern.

In an off road rig, I want to say the best set up will be to minimize stress risers, regardless of alloys used. Axle shafts with its outer diameter not any larger than spline root diameter along the length, and with good radii profile at yoke.

4340 and 4340M (or known as 300M) can twist a lot lot more than weaker alloys of same size. But I want to emphasize that all kind of metals (chinesium of unknown alloy or all way up to certified USA-made 300m) will twist nearly exactly the same for the given torque. The difference is that stronger alloys will twist more before yielding or break or get FATIGUED.

You lose what I’d call “torque-shock dampening” as you go larger outer diameter.

Imagine you have two 24” long extensions, 1/4” and 1/2” drives (assume 1/4” drive extension have 1/4” outer diameter, 1/2” drive extension have 1/2” outer diameter if you must know…).

Two test scenarios.
You adapt either to your 1/2” breaker bar. You try to turn an immovable fastener with both to a torque set point. You’ll find out quickly that the 1/4” drive 24” long extension twisted a lot farther than your 1/2” drive 24” extension will before you reach the torque set point. Now, what if the said immovable fastener suddenly turn counter-clockwise against your clockwise torque? The 1/4” drive 24” extension will give you the desired “torque-shock dampening” because the torque being applied to your hands ramp up slower despite the fastener turned several degrees while your 1/2” drive 24” extension will “torque-shock” and rip out of your hands despite after the fastener only turned few degrees.
This is under assumption neither 1/4” or 1/2” drive yielded or broke.

scenario: You’re to go up an exciting hill climb where you need to use generous amount of throttle. As you bounce your way up holding the loud pedal to floor, the “torque-shock dampening” characteristic improve your traction as your tires will not slip as easily wherever they finds a good patch of traction (slipping tires generally always have less traction) and more forgiving on your drivetrain as whole.

The only way to have more twisting in an axle shaft without sacrificing maximum torque before yielding is to go with blingy alloys like 4340 or 300M. Therefore logically going with best alloy you can get or afford, to minimize outer diameter without sacrificing strength and twistability.


The issue with 300M blings that they’re susceptible to corrosion and any imperfections on outer diameter surface. They’re stress risers, often leading to fatigue failure. Try imagine you have a clear scotch packing tape under high tension. A pen poke it lightly and the tape severe immediately. Same thing with a rust pitted or gouged 300M where the crack will appear and grow quickly from the rust pit or gouge valley.

Protect 4340 or 300m shaft surface from corrosion or rough handling. Paint shafts between yoke and sealing surface to prevent corrosion. Even a special axle shaft seals, like newer ford d60s use, which don’t ride on shaft at all will help eliminating any chance of seal grooving. This will ensure your blingy axle shafts to last much longer.

For the steering joint, it’s a personal preference. U-joints, rcv or even rzeppa .

In a perfect world aka unlimited funding and time to design & build axle assemblies for my recreational trail rig on 35”-38” tires; I’ll want to design an axle assembly with either JKD44 or AdvanTEK “D44” ring and pinion in a strengthened center section with load bolt to combat gear deflection with 35 spline carrier (or larger to like 37 or 40 if required to have more meat to “comp cut”), 1550 spicer life series u joints for its steering angle and availability and longevity and strength, heat treated and polished and anodized 4340 (I pick 4340 as it’s more widely available and more resilient to surface imperfection) inner shafts with “comp cut” neck down between inner seal and yoke to prompt twistability for the “torque-shock dampening” to help everything between tire and transmission live while without sacrificing to metal fatigue or strength.

Gotta compromise somewhere due to cost, engineering or manufacturing limitation or time.

Yeah I’m bored. Carry on.

 

[Adamwende]

I was just talking to someone about this, with the availability of 05+ these days, people seem to think that 1480 stuff isn't good all of a sudden? Short of rock bouncers, I doubt almost anyone will exceed 1480 capability.

I’ve seen a 300m 40 spline shaft break, before a 1480 nitro joint break. And it’s not like nitro joints are all that special. The sheep go where they’re directed. Remember when balljoints and unit bearings were trash? 😂

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I’ve seen a 300m 40 spline shaft break, before a 1480 nitro joint break. And it’s not like nitro joints are all that special. The sheep go where they’re directed. Remember when balljoints and unit bearings were trash? 😂

That's the other thing. People get hung up on "a will break before b"

In the environment we put our rigs in, there is no perfect formula for what will break before something else. Bind one tire turned full lock and ujoint or ears may be the weak point. Bind the same tire straight and the shaft may be the weak point. Bounce the front off the ground while on the throttle and now you may be breaking a r&p.

In west coast style wheelin, I don't see very many broken r&p (except toyota 8" ) while east coast guys seem to talk how weak a D60 r&p is.

I'm a big believer in the right tool for the job. I've talked on here about building a custom axle out of a D30, but thats a 2k lb rig on 32s with 50hp. 99-04 stuff has its place just the same, and as the 05+ stuff gains popularity, hopefully the 99-04 stuff will become even cheaper

 

[Adamwende]

That's the other thing. People get hung up on "a will break before b"

In the environment we put our rigs in, there is no perfect formula for what will break before something else. Bind one tire turned full lock and ujoint or ears may be the weak point. Bind the same tire straight and the shaft may be the weak point. Bounce the front off the ground while on the throttle and now you may be breaking a r&p.

In west coast style wheelin, I don't see very many broken r&p (except toyota 8" ) while east coast guys seem to talk how weak a D60 r&p is.

I'm a big believer in the right tool for the job. I've talked on here about building a custom axle out of a D30, but thats a 2k lb rig on 32s with 50hp. 99-04 stuff has its place just the same, and as the 05+ stuff gains popularity, hopefully the 99-04 stuff will become even cheaper

You’re 100% correct. I might be the only person in the planet taking dodge unit bearing shit, through the places we go. 😎 99-04 is already pretty cheap in AZ. I have a little pile of parts for when the next build starts. 🤘🤘🤘

 

[YotaAtieToo]

You’re 100% correct. I might be the only person in the planet taking dodge unit bearing shit, through the places we go. 😎 99-04 is already pretty cheap in AZ. I have a little pile of parts for when the next build starts. 🤘🤘🤘

When I say 99-04, I'm lumping the dodge stuff in there also more or less.

Someone mentioned the clamping force of the big stub shaft nut may help with strength?

I like the dodge for simplicity and should be the lightest 1480 knuckle setup short of Fab stuff.

 

[Bebop]

Just about every Reddot in the planet runs 1480.

And they break them often too

The first new style 1550 spidertrax setup is in a reddot for that reason.

I’ve seen a 300m 40 spline shaft break, before a 1480 nitro joint break. And it’s not like nitro joints are all that special. The sheep go where they’re directed. Remember when balljoints and unit bearings were trash? 😂

Angle of the joint makes a big difference. I've seen CTM joints break with 35sp axles too.

And the balljoints and unit bearings are junk statement comes form the 99-04 parts which have terrible reputation.
The 05+ UBs are much much larger which makes them a lot stronger. I still wear mine out in about 2 years.
As far as the balljoints, they are still junk IMO. Hence why they get replaced.

Someone mentioned the clamping force of the big stub shaft nut may help with strength?

Can't be since it's not used to set bearing pre-load.

 

[Big4x4ride]

I was just talking to someone about this, with the availability of 05+ these days, people seem to think that 1480 stuff isn't good all of a sudden? Short of rock bouncers, I doubt almost anyone will exceed 1480 capability.

Exactly. You see it constantly, people acting like anything pre 05 and smaller than 1550 will snap instantly, and kingpins are the weakest things ever. Most of those people though haven't been involved in this hobby for more than a couple of years, and gained all their knowledge off of Social Media.

 

[Big4x4ride]

And the balljoints and unit bearings are junk statement comes form the 99-04 parts which have terrible reputation.
The 05+ UBs are much much larger which makes them a lot stronger. I still wear mine out in about 2 years.
As far as the balljoints, they are still junk IMO. Hence why they get replaced.

Don't the 05 up's actually place the bearings closer together, which would be a weaker design setup? Not arguing 05 up vs 99-04, but I did think this was 1 change that wasn't for the better overall.

 

[Bebop]

Don't the 05 up's actually place the bearings closer together, which would be a weaker design setup?

Haven't measured but they are shallower so I'm assuming you're correct.

 

[Levigarrett76]

How do serviceable bearing dana 60 hubs compare strength wise to 05-up unit bearing?

 

[Bebop]

How do serviceable bearing dana 60 hubs compare strength wise to 05-up unit bearing?

They don't fit anything over 40sp and even that requires custom parts that are very expensive.
They don't compare.

 

[Blase]

I'm a fan of the 99-04 Inner's and outer's simply because they are cheap, easy to find and easy to get because no one wants them. For a 35 spline custom axle build they are hard to beat.

One thing I haven't ever seen is a weigh comparison between 99-04 and 05+ outers (inner knuckle out). Anyone have any info on this? I'd ASSume the 99-04 is lighter since the knuckles are smaller but I've never seen anyone prove that true!!

 

[KB6Chris]

I'm running a welded 05 Dana 50 from an excursion in my YJ with 4.0, 5 speed, 5.38's and 38x15.5 tires. and will add what I can. Only thing I've broken was a passenger stub shaft. It happened because I was pulling out my dads f350 crew cab long bed with my front tow hooks(using reverse). My passenger hub was set to lock but didn't lock in. I had the jeep in 4low and was giving it the beans and the hub decided to lock in on its own at about 3500 RPM and snapped the stub shaft. I was up on a semi solid gravel lane.

I would've like to have used an 05+ when I built it. The Dana 50 was much cheaper and I was able to utilize the leaf spring perches for my YJ although I had to outboard the springs.

Other than the broken stub shaft the axle has done everything I've asked it to do with many nights of whisky throttle and rev limiter stuff.

One complaint with the Dana 99-04 stuff is the turning radius. At least in my experience using the leaf springs.

Here is the carnage

Here is it compared to a stock Dana 60 stub from a Kingpin Dodge (1989)

 

[Big4x4ride]

I just built an 02 Dana 60 for my JK, my biggest worry was the stub shaft so I ponied up the $$ for 35 spline chromo's and some Branik bored UB's. Hoping to get a buddies lathe setup soon so that we can bore our own UB's for spares/future use eventually.

 

[RustyC]

One thing I haven't ever seen is a weigh comparison between 99-04 and 05+ outers (inner knuckle out). Anyone have any info on this? I'd ASSume the 99-04 is lighter since the knuckles are smaller but I've never seen anyone prove that true!!

I have all the components inner c's out to compare the 2. I did this comparison between a king pin and 99-04 a while back and posted it here or somewhere. I'll see if I can find it and also compare the 99-04 and 05 up stuff.
The 05 will for sure be heavier for the inner c alone are much bigger.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I have all the components inner c's out to compare the 2. I did this comparison between a king pin and 99-04 a while back and posted it here or somewhere. I'll see if I can find in and also compare the 99-04 and 05 up stuff.
The 05 will for sure be heavier for the inner c alone are much bigger.

I'd be interested to see the dodge knuckles, ub and stub also. I'd think its lighter, but curious how much.

 

[JR4X]

Just about every Reddot in the planet runs 1480.

With water in the tires weighing 340 pounds each and steering them to 50°

 

[JR4X]

Whatever it is you’re running, just because you broke it doesn’t mean it was junk. That day, you exceeded its abilities somehow. You might get years again in between the next time you exceed its abilities.

The 99-04 stuff is substantially lighter than the following generations. How many actual pounds lighter I can’t say at this moment but I have all 3 and both 05+ & 11+ up is retarded heavier.

 

[fl0w3n]

Just cross posting the weight info from the 05+ thread…

99-04 OEM inner c, knuckle and unit bearing vs 05- up OEM inner c, knuckle and unit bearing.
NOT perfect because I have a high steer arm welded on the 99-04 knuckle and no wheel studs in the 99-04 unit bearing. I am not removing wheel studs or cutting off the high steer just to get a better comparison.
2010 knuckle with window above lower BJ.

99-04
bearing bored for 35 spline 20.8 lb - 9.43 kg
inner c 15.0 lb - 6.80 kg
knuckle with high steer 30.0 lb - 13.6 kg

Total 65.8 lb - 29.84 kg

05 -up
bearing 23.8 lb - 10.79 kg
inner c 21.0 lb - 9.52 kg
knuckle milled for B/K high steer 26.6 lb - 12.06 kg

Total 71. 4 lb - 32.38 kg

Difference of 5.6 lb - 2.54 kg

 

[fl0w3n]

Just cross posting the weight info from the 05+ thread…

99-04 OEM inner c, knuckle and unit bearing vs 05- up OEM inner c, knuckle and unit bearing.
NOT perfect because I have a high steer arm welded on the 99-04 knuckle and no wheel studs in the 99-04 unit bearing. I am not removing wheel studs or cutting off the high steer just to get a better comparison.
2010 knuckle with window above lower BJ.

99-04
bearing bored for 35 spline 20.8 lb - 9.43 kg
inner c 15.0 lb - 6.80 kg
knuckle with high steer 30.0 lb - 13.6 kg

Total 65.8 lb - 29.84 kg

05 -up
bearing 23.8 lb - 10.79 kg
inner c 21.0 lb - 9.52 kg
knuckle milled for B/K high steer 26.6 lb - 12.06 kg

Total 71. 4 lb - 32.38 kg

Difference of 5.6 lb - 2.54 kg

 

[Bebop]

With water in the tires weighing 340 pounds each and steering them to 50°

And they break.
That’s why spidertrax designed the 1550 stuff.

 

[JR4X]

And they break.
That’s why spidertrax designed the 1550 stuff.

Yep. No good trip ever got accomplished with them. Break so easy you had to be careful getting off the trailer with them just to go break on the trail. Definitely best off to scrap them and pay $40K for the new stuff, it’s really the only option.

I get it with you guys fat ass bouncers back east. I’ve never seen your rig but I don’t have to see it to have an educated guess that it weighs over 5000# with you in it. And with an LS that probably doesn’t come in under 400 hp. Obviously that’s a recipe for exploded shit. On the west coast people are still building buggies that weigh less than 3000 pounds before water goes in the tires. The 1480 size stuff is still pretty decent in a sub 3000 pounds buggy with a 2.0L 4 cylinder. And affordable and easy to find.

Are/were you redneckengineerd on the PBB?

 

[Sterlingfire]

Here's your weight comparison...
05 to 10 is about 625 per my scale with the tie rod actual weight at 31 lbs and the drag link estimated at about 24-25 could be 30 When i get it out I'll update again....
The 04 is a dually but when you subtract the dually hub extensions we get a dry weight of 517 lbs..

Both are complete with brakes, axle shafts, and internals...Big difference

05 up

99-04

 

[Sean]

Hmmm....something's seriously off on weights on the main SD60 05+ thread then:

'05+ Ford Super Duty Dana 60 Axle Tech & Info

1st post says ~750 lbs fully loaded.

Axle Specs:
-Tubes: 3.75" OD, 1/2" wall
-WMS to WMS: 72"
-Ring Gear: 9.75" (a 10" can be sourced from Ford in limited ratios)
-Lug Pattern: 8x170
-Wheel Studs: M14x1.50
-Weight: Approximately 750lbs loaded with brakes
-Axle shafts: 35 spline
-U-joints: 1480
-Tone ring: 60 tooth

 

[fl0w3n]

Here’s a weight pic from the 05+ thread. Maybe the tie rod and drag link actually are 60lbs not 10?

I wonder if the 750 comes from factoring in truss?

Saw this yesterday

 

[Sterlingfire]

Well i guess since it's laying here I'll get the tie rod weight, and after looking at the drag link I'll bet it's all of 24 lbs. We're probably right on. I just can't get the drag link off at the moment.

Now i suppose i need to get the actual weights of the hub for the dually just to see how much that cuts off...brb