'05+ Ford Super Duty Dana 60 Axle Tech & Info

[gozuki]

If it doesn't say in stock, beware that Summit relies on extensive drop ships from their vendors

 

[Grendel]

I just returned a short and a long side shaft. Both arrived beat to fuck from ebay vendors.

I ended up buying from DTF.

 

[Bebop]

Looks like the same thing I dealt with. They just update the date every couple of weeks and push it by that much.

 

[lt1yj]

Axles shipped this morning.

 

[CDA 455 II]

When setting up an '05+ FRONT axle under my Bronco; HOW WOULD I:
1) Square axle to frame?
2) Set axle for proper caster?
3) Set proper pinion angle?

BASELINE:
'94 Bronco XL / 6" Sky ORD lift
I've never done a front axle swap.
Bronco is DD / around town / trail rig (travel range less than 100 mile radius ON ROAD).

Since it will be (initially) a K.I.S.S. swap; I'll be using factory radius arms/brackets from '05+.

nOOB questions:
a) What is usually the pinion angle on said front axle?
b) What is usually the caster angle on said front axle?
c) With the 6" lift will I have to compromise greatly with the caster and pinion angle?
d) How bad would it be on steering if I set the caster to 0* in order to have a more proper pinion angle?
e) How bad would it be on steering if I set the caster to -1* in order to have a more proper pinion angle?
f) Where on said axle could I use as a reference point when setting/determining caster?

WaterH would be a yuge help with this

 

[Lil'John]

When setting up an '05+ FRONT axle under my Bronco; HOW WOULD I:
1) Square axle to frame?

My favorite fab guy told me to measure from known side to side points... like body mounts, spring hangers, shackle hangers, etc. Then tack weld the frame mounts to a piece of steel to square them up. Then put that assembly up to the frame and measure from the known side to side points.

Here is an example for leaf springs in the rear of my project(Ruff stuff perches onto a piece of angle iron):

Here is the perch on the frame still attached to jig(I measured from body mount that is visible):

For caster and pinion angle, you need to figure out stock pinion angle and stock caster. If you screw with the pinion angle, you'll need to adjust the caster back to stock or whatever offroad magic says.

 

[Im4yotas]

If you're not going to cut and turn the knuckles to get good caster and pinion angles, then don't even worry about the pinion angle. Caster is way more important. If the lower driveshaft u joint binds, then you can look at other options, but I suspect it will be fine with the radius arms.

 

[rockyota83]

My favorite fab guy told me to measure from known side to side points... like body mounts, spring hangers, shackle hangers, etc. Then tack weld the frame mounts to a piece of steel to square them up. Then put that assembly up to the frame and measure from the known side to side points.

i do the same and then i use some solid rod to align my brackets through the mount holes like i did on these shackle mounts

 

[rockyota83]

sometimes your frame can be bent from accidents like on this toyota so then i will use the opposite axle mounts as a measuring point so front and rear axles are square with each other

 

[WaterH]

If you're not going to cut and turn the knuckles to get good caster and pinion angles, then don't even worry about the pinion angle. Caster is way more important. If the lower driveshaft u joint binds, then you can look at other options, but I suspect it will be fine with the radius arms.

I agree with this. You have to have the caster right or it will suck to drive on the street. The stock Superduty doesn't have enough caster in my opinion. I'm not sure how they drive, but they may benifit from the long wheel base.

 

[WaterH]

nOOB questions:
a) What is usually the pinion angle on said front axle?
b) What is usually the caster angle on said front axle?
c) With the 6" lift will I have to compromise greatly with the caster and pinion angle?
d) How bad would it be on steering if I set the caster to 0* in order to have a more proper pinion angle?
e) How bad would it be on steering if I set the caster to -1* in order to have a more proper pinion angle?
f) Where on said axle could I use as a reference point when setting/determining caster?

CDA455, I tried to look at my thread and find the numbers, but it was too hard. Going just by memory, I can tell you I went to the dealer and the stock radius arms are dead horizontal on a SD truck. I believe this gives them 3 degrees of caster. I always forget whether it's negative or positive, but if you lower the radious arms at the back, the caster gets more better. Obviously, that's not what you want to do. So you need to slot the holes or weld something to achieve this. I found my project drove like shit with 3 degrees. Now I have it like 7-8 degrees and it feels good. You may not have as much issue as me if you don't have full hydro. As far as a measure point, when the to mount holes are straight vertical, you have 3degrees of good caster.

 

[Lil'John]

I haven't seen answered... is there a 40 spline locking hub available? I've been searching with zero results. I'm not sure I saw even a 35 spline aftermarket hub like Yukon. Is the only option broaching a stock 35 spline?

Also, what is the difference between a 2017+ knuckle and a 2012.5 to 16? Weaver fab is showing they are different but it isn't clear if it is same "brakes" with aluminum knuckles. If it is aluminum knuckles, what is the weight saving?

I'm starting to shop for a front axle and the cost difference between 05-08, 09-12, 13-16, and 17+ are within striking distance of each other depending on the drive(+/- 100 miles).

 

[CDA 455 II]

I haven't seen answered... is there a 40 spline locking hub available? I've been searching with zero results. I'm not sure I saw even a 35 spline aftermarket hub like Yukon. Is the only option broaching a stock 35 spline?

IIRC; the 40 spline fits straight into the outer hub, thereby needing only a cover.

Also, what is the difference between a 2017+ knuckle and a 2012.5 to 16? Weaver fab is showing they are different but it isn't clear if it is same "brakes" with aluminum knuckles. If it is aluminum knuckles, what is the weight saving?

I'm starting to shop for a front axle and the cost difference between 05-08, 09-12, 13-16, and 17+ are within striking distance of each other depending on the drive(+/- 100 miles).

Yes; the '17+ are YUGE'R (bigger)!

 

[Lil'John]

IIRC; the 40 spline fits straight into the outer hub, thereby needing only a cover.



Yes; the '17+ are YUGE'R (bigger)!

I thought it was 47 spline or something equally big that just went straight to the hub... I've found flanges for 40 spline and they appear to have a small gear going from 40 to ~32 spline hub.

Is the 17 bigger? Looking at Weaver's photo, they just looked to have an odd casting to them when compared to earlier.

 

[RPS1030]

IIRC; the 40 spline fits straight into the outer hub, thereby needing only a cover.

I thought it was 47 spline or something equally big that just went straight to the hub... I've found flanges for 40 spline and they appear to have a small gear going from 40 to ~32 spline hub.

Is the 17 bigger? Looking at Weaver's photo, they just looked to have an odd casting to them when compared to earlier.

The RCV Big Bell page shows the 32 spline inside the unit bearing for direct spline.

35 and 40 spline flanges should both have inserts to mate inner and outer splines.

 

[Lil'John]

What are the pros/cons of the various steering options out there? Stock vs weld-on vs machined top.

Aside from being low, is there any weakness to the stock setup? Is the pass side double set up weak?

Weld-on seems like a good compromise between cost and height. Assuming a competent welder does it, any concerns?

Machined top seems to prove that every inch costs. Is there any concerns about the concentrated force at the top of the knuckle? I think it was kingpin knuckles that had issues with the leverage at the top(infrequent but happened)

Here is an example of a weld-on(not sure if Barnes or not, I stole picture):

Here is example of machined top(Weaver, etc, picture shows Reid knuckle but the machine concept):

 

[Arickvan]

What are the pros/cons of the various steering options out there? Stock vs weld-on vs machined top.

Aside from being low, is there any weakness to the stock setup? Is the pass side double set up weak?

Weld-on seems like a good compromise between cost and height. Assuming a competent welder does it, any concerns?

Machined top seems to prove that every inch costs. Is there any concerns about the concentrated force at the top of the knuckle? I think it was kingpin knuckles that had issues with the leverage at the top(infrequent but happened)

Here is an example of a weld-on(not sure if Barnes or not, I stole picture):


Here is example of machined top(Weaver, etc, picture shows Reid knuckle but the machine concept):

i know reid high steer knuckles are cast with extra material to help with strength

compared to machining a stock knuckle where you only take away material

quote from reids website "

• Flat-top pad measures 4.5 inches higher than the cast-in steering arm's top surface, and aftermarket steering arms of various heights can accommodate a wide range of suspension lifts.
• Easy bolt-on installation with no machining required.
• Antilock Brakes, Traction Control, Vacuum Hubs, and Electronic Stability Control systems are retained.
• Cast from high-strength ductile iron and beefed up with extra material and ribbing."

 

[rockyota83]

i would do high steer like hydrodynamic did it if i didnt want to machine it with weaver

i will weld to cast steel but i dont want to rely on it 100%

Dust Buggy

Many of you know me from the HydroDynamic Buggy. Around Thanksgiving 2017 we had some family over and we took the buggy out for some night runs around the ranch. One of the last runs was with my three boys, the 4 and 6 year old sitting in the passenger seat and the 2 year old sitting with me...

irate4x4.com

 

[Lil'John]

i know reid high steer knuckles are cast with extra material to help with strength

compared to machining a stock knuckle where you only take away material

Good point on adding vs removing material. The only issue with Reid is the ~$400 a side without arms.

i would do high steer like hydrodynamic did it if i didnt want to machine it with weaver

i will weld to cast steel but i dont want to rely on it 100%

Dust Buggy

Many of you know me from the HydroDynamic Buggy. Around Thanksgiving 2017 we had some family over and we took the buggy out for some night runs around the ranch. One of the last runs was with my three boys, the 4 and 6 year old sitting in the passenger seat and the 2 year old sitting with me...

irate4x4.com

I trust the guy who I'd have do the welding.

Here is HYDRODYNAMIC version of high steer:

That is way beyond my capability

 

[rockyota83]

I trust the guy who I'd have do the welding.

doesnt matter how good of a welder he is, welding cast steel isnt ideal

 

[Sterlingfire]

doesnt matter how good of a welder he is, welding cast steel isnt ideal

Agreed, I've seen bunches of pictures of welded arms ripped off the knuckle.

 

[RustyC]

Does anyone have evidence of a weld on kit that utilizes a large bolt to tie into the oem steering arm failing?

I am building an axle and I need high steer and need / want to use GM 1 ton tie rod ends. I am not finding many options other than Reid or Weaver.
I am considering building my own weld on arms that tie into the oem arms and use tie rod ends.

 

[Bebop]

Seen some pics of a failed weld on kit that was ties into the OEM arm.
I'm not a fan of them, I'd rather do a machined arm.

 

[WaterH]

Seen some pics of a failed weld on kit that was ties into the OEM arm.
I'm not a fan of them, I'd rather do a machined arm.

This is my thought, but if I do it again, I will do something along the lines of Hydro Dinamics.

 

[Arickvan]

Does anyone have evidence of a weld on kit that utilizes a large bolt to tie into the oem steering arm failing?

I am building an axle and I need high steer and need / want to use GM 1 ton tie rod ends. I am not finding many options other than Reid or Weaver.
I am considering building my own weld on arms that tie into the oem arms and use tie rod ends.

Snowracer posted a 99-04 superduty weld on kit that failed at the old place, very high abuse on a heavy rig but still failed

its not quite and apples to apples comparison, but it made me go with the reid knuckles for my plans (big heavy full cab rig), if i was going wih a lighter rig i would have gone a different route

actually i still have the stock knuckles that i might setup with high steer as trail spares, or to sell 🤷

from the welfare duty thread

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Good point on adding vs removing material. The only issue with Reid is the ~$400 a side without arms.


I trust the guy who I'd have do the welding.

Here is HYDRODYNAMIC version of high steer:


That is way beyond my capability

The picture you linked is of the first gen that I scraped. It was up to show the difference. It was was all laser cut plate, looked cool, but the geometry was a little off and the wheel clearance wasn't great. I made a gen 2 with simple flat bar and only two laser cut tabs. The gen 2 would be easy for anyone to make in their garage. Substitute the laser cut tabs for flat bar or notch some premade link tabs to fit. I also decided the lower stock ear was useless for the high steer attachment so I cut it off and sanded the knuckle flat to clean up the looks. The centerline of the ball joints to steering rod end is 5.5" for 45* of angle using a 8" cylinder.
I believe a bolt through design that covers more area is going to be more bombproof than a keyed top with tapped bolts. I have seen weld on staying strong on some beat up axles and rigs and have also seen some pop right off. I am confident in my cast welding enough to do a 205 shave but not for steering when it its a matter of driving off a cliff.
You cant get much cheaper than the gen 2 version either. You would need to buy or have a 5/8" tap and drill for the two top bolts and a 3/4" drill for the lower through bolts. Its all hand drilled no mill work.

 

[tac1]

A few years ago when I started working with the 05+ axles I ended up with a junk housing center section and knuckle, I did some testing welding sections of the housing and knuckle to some mild steel c-channel with different methods and taking a sledge hammer to them in a vise.

No matter what I tried anything done with regular er wire, er rod, or 7018 failed the hammer test pretty easy. We tried a ton of combinations 252 with .035 wire, 300amp industrial machine with .045 wire, spray, a more skilled welder ect. All failed with 3-4 hammer hits.

I had pretty good results with ni55 stick rod, either chipping off the flux and tig welding with it or stick welding with it. I also had good results with 309L.

Everything was preheated 400F, kept near there during welding, peened after each pass, 2-3 passes, slow cooled.

Er70 mig sample



Ni-55 rod sample


Here are a bunch of pictures, the c-channel looks small but it is 3/8" web.

 

[Snowracer]

Snowracer posted a 99-04 superduty weld on kit that failed at the old place, very high abuse on a heavy rig but still failed

its not quite and apples to apples comparison, but it made me go with the reid knuckles for my plans (big heavy full cab rig), if i was going wih a lighter rig i would have gone a different route

actually i still have the stock knuckles that i might setup with high steer as trail spares, or to sell 🤷

from the welfare duty thread

he actually had two weld on highsteer kits fail. first one is what is posted where it actually broke the knuckle but was still half welded on and was able to drive it back onto the trailer. afte that he got another knuckle and welded a new kit on and it only lasted a few runs and started to pull the welds and parts of the cast off the knuckle. yes it was pre and post heated and welded with the right rod blah blah blah

he has since gone to machined knuckles with bolt on high steer and had zero issues, even with ripping the knuckle off the truck. we went to town got new ball joints and put the knuckle back on it camp and kept going

 

[Lil'John]

Are there any weak links to the stock steering setup beyond it being in the dirt?

 

[rockyota83]

That is way beyond my capability

for me one of the great things about how hydrodynamic did it is that i can do it that way at home myself without having to custom order or send them off to be machined, i like being able to do things myself at home.