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Tourist submarine exploring Titanic wreckage disappears in Atlantic Ocean

Last one for now - this is friggin' tedious:

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aczlan said:
They were bolting the hatch on (apparently) without using a pattern around the hatch, just one bolt after the other.

Aaron Z
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I think the bolts just hold it so it doesn't leak on the surface.

The uniformly applied pressure at depth should take over from the bolts so you shouldn't need to be picky about bolting it down right.

Still, no reason to risk it

shortbus4x4 said:
It's all good, once you're a few thousand feet down the pressure will hold the end caps on with no need for bolts.:flipoff2:
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My understanding is that pretty much all deep sea stuff is designed to get held together by the pressure on purpose because bolted assemblies under fucktons of stress have the pesky habit of loosening up over cycles.
 
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OceanGate seems to have been picking up a lot of their employees from Edmonds College. Anyone know anything about that school?
 
The more I watch the videos of them assemble that thing the more WTF I have. Just a butt joint on the caps? No inner or outer lip? Just lowering it down on the CF with no alignment cone or any kind of jig. No dowels running end for end sandwiching the carbon fiber. Dude seemed like a real arrogant prick that wanted to be a maverick ,instead he turned himself and 4 others into raspberry jam.
 
dwygrsshpr said:
So one thing that was not mentioned in the discussion about composites is that there is very little difference between yield strength and ultimate strength such that in practice they are essentially identical and planned accordingly. Metals technology has been understood for centuries and behaves very linearly. Composites, when fabricated perfectly, also behave very predictably when designed and loaded according to the ply-up and resin matrix. The annoying part is that whole "fabricated perfectly" nit.

From a motorsports perspective, you can drive/steer with a bent tie-rod but not with one that shattered....

Further is the combination/complication of composites with interfaces. If you want to bolt through a lay-up, the easiest practice is to co-laminate a piece of metal in the matrix. i.e. you want a thru-hole, you embed a fender washer. You want to bolt/nut, you embed a solid washer. Note, use rounds, or squares with heavily radiused corners. Edges and anything with a corner is a stress riser and will knife right through the ply-up
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I recall that the Formula One cars do not have tie rod ends. The carbon fiber flexes. I am sure that they are replaced on a regular basis.
 
Roc Doc said:
I fucking hate Linked In. That is all.
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Agree. It started out years ago as a good professional tool. Well at least an OK professional tool. But it is morphed into a woke and overreaching monster. Sadly, many employers require their employees to sign up and, if used properly, it can help you find a job.
 
plym49.2 said:
Agree. It started out years ago as a good professional tool. Well at least an OK professional tool. But it is morphed into a woke and overreaching monster. Sadly, many employers require their employees to sign up and, if used properly, it can help you find a job.
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I’ve been working as an engineer for 20+ years and i never understood LinkedIn

(I didn’t say I had the degree, I just said I had the job, and I never said I was good at it)
 
plym49.2 said:
I recall that the Formula One cars do not have tie rod ends. The carbon fiber flexes. I am sure that they are replaced on a regular basis.
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If you want to get really sexy, the profile of the carbon tie rods have aerodynamic profiles to help with down force at each corner. In other words - they aint just tubes.
 
hooligan shmulligan said:
The more I watch the videos of them assemble that thing the more WTF I have. Just a butt joint on the caps? No inner or outer lip? Just lowering it down on the CF with no alignment cone or any kind of jig. No dowels running end for end sandwiching the carbon fiber. Dude seemed like a real arrogant prick that wanted to be a maverick ,instead he turned himself and 4 others into raspberry jam.
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Yup.

Whole thing reeks of fresh out of school engineers who've never seen how shit gets built in the real world.
 
For all of those who said,” I’m white but not that white”


When it was between the possibility of death and losing your $88,000 nonrefundable deposit, you would’ve gotten on the tub, and you know it. Because you’re “THAT” white.
 
Rooney77 said:
It reeks of shitty engineers trying to bypass the safety standards they were taught.

That's not a fresh out of school trait. That's a lazy fucktard trait.
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I agree. That’s the trait of someone who has become complacent. Years of everything working out and disregarding the possibilities that one time it won’t, and that time will cost.
 
CDA 455 II said:
The general consensus in the cycling community for indirect expiration date on CF frames and forks was 10 years from date of production.

Meaning; unless a brand new CF frame and fork was kept in a cave at 60* with no light for 10 years, it was no longer deemed safe to ride/use.
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I’m not aware of any lifecycle limitations on the carbon parts of the RJ. Obviously the jet isn’t structurally built out of carbon, but flight controls and fairings are. The only concern with them was to keep them protected from UV. UV would break down the epoxy overtime.

I’m aware of general aviation aircraft that do have lifecycle limitations on them. But those limitations are not exactly short periods of time and are not by calendar date as far as I know.

I wouldn’t have any concern about expired carbon as Donk noted.
 
Rooney77 said:
It reeks of shitty engineers trying to bypass the safety standards they were taught.

That's not a fresh out of school trait. That's a lazy fucktard trait.
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grumpy356 said:
I agree. That’s the trait of someone who has become complacent. Years of everything working out and disregarding the possibilities that one time it won’t, and that time will cost.
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What safety standard? It's not like there's a proven and accepted way to bolt end caps onto a carbon fiber sub. These people are all flying by the seat of their pants.

I don't think you appreciate how shitty professionally trained but inexperienced MEs are when it comes to designing things in a sensible manner on the first go-round

They do dumb shit like but joints because they don't have experience with all the shit in the world that's held together with concentric fits and then justify it with "but the FEA software says my bolts have enough safety factor" or "smooth surface less stress risers" or "fewer machining operations" or "but we can use a smaller billet" when asked about it.
 
hooligan shmulligan said:
The more I watch the videos of them assemble that thing the more WTF I have. Just a butt joint on the caps? No inner or outer lip? ....
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not saying they did it right but there clearly is an inner and outer lip on the Titanium ring.
this is the underside and there is a ~2 inch lip there.

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arse_sidewards said:
What safety standard? It's not like there's a proven and accepted way to bolt end caps onto a carbon fiber sub. These people are all flying by the seat of their pants.

I don't think you appreciate how shitty professionally trained but inexperienced MEs are when it comes to designing things in a sensible manner on the first go-round

They do dumb shit like but joints because they don't have experience with all the shit in the world that's held together with concentric fits and then justify it with "but the FEA software says my bolts have enough safety factor" or "smooth surface less stress risers" or "fewer machining operations" or "but we can use a smaller billet" when asked about it.
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Well I regularly hire new engineers straight out of school, so I have a fairly good idea of what their traits are. 99% of straight out of school engineers are too scared and unsure to make a call that significant. And given that lives were at stake, I'd be surprised if they didn't have a PE sign off on their designs. No one leaves school with their PE stamp...no one.

Even if they didn't have a PE sign off, the whole thing reeks of experienced engineers sick of the red tape and trying to find loop holes or corners to cut.

The safety standards I refer to are the margin of safety you are taught to design into everything. For instance, if the target depth is 12k feet you design for 18k feet. Engineering 101.
 
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Rooney77 said:
Well I regularly hire new engineers straight out of school, so I have a fairly good idea of what their traits are. 99% of straight out of school engineers are too scared and unsure to make a call.that significant. And given that lives were at stake, I'd be surprised if they didn't have a PE sign off on their designs. No one leaves school with their PE stamp...no one.

Even if they didn't have a PE sign off, the whole thing reeks of experienced engineers sick of the red tape and trying to find loop holes or corners to cut.

The safety standards I refer to are the margin of safety you are taught to design into everything. For instance, if the target depth is 12k feet you design for 18k feet. Engineering 101.
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Dead on for new engineers. Most have to be directed to machinist handbook or a drill and tap chart. I usually help to hire 2 to 3 interns a year plus 1 or 2 engineers. Usually takes 3 to 5 years for them to make major decisions.


A VP or someone else made the decisions or directions for them to follow.
 
Rooney77 said:
Well I regularly hire new engineers straight out of school, so I have a fairly good idea of what their traits are. 99% of straight out of school engineers are too scared and unsure to make a call that significant. And given that lives were at stake, I'd be surprised if they didn't have a PE sign off on their designs. No one leaves school with their PE stamp...no one.
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Are you seeing more women applicants? My nephew's girlfriend (at the time), was an Engineering major at Purdue, and she said there were more women than men in the Engineering programs.
 
Rooney77 said:
Well I regularly hire new engineers straight out of school, so I have a fairly good idea of what their traits are. 99% of straight out of school engineers are too scared and unsure to make a call that significant. And given that lives were at stake, I'd be surprised if they didn't have a PE sign off on their designs. No one leaves school with their PE stamp...no one.
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Of course. But for a project like this the PE is acting like a manager. You throw enough shit at them and something is gonna get by.

With all the cost cutting going on I assume they designed the thing by having a bunch of cheap entry level engineers flinging shit at the wall.

Rooney77 said:
Even if they didn't have a PE sign off, the whole thing reeks of experienced engineers sick of the red tape and trying to find loop holes or corners to cut.
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I don't think they had the budget for experienced engineers. These guys are mostly the old white men they don't want anyway.

Rooney77 said:
The safety standards I refer to are the margin of safety you are taught to design into everything. For instance, if the target depth is 12k feet you design for 18k feet. Engineering 101.
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They did. IIRC the structure was designed to withstand far more than the pressure at 14k feet.
 
ProjectTwin said:
I thought I had already posted these:



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There’s quite lot of detail missing from that filament winding process. Normally a pressure vessel would have varying degrees of strand orientation. As noted the carbon needs to be loaded in tensile.

This is a long video, but it shows a pressure tank being wound. Skip to 2:10 to see the difference.

 
Roc Doc said:
Are you seeing more women applicants? My nephew's girlfriend (at the time), was an Engineering major at Purdue, and she said there were more women than men in the Engineering programs.
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I am not. I'm still surprised by how few female applicants we get. And given who I work for, that's a bit surprising.


arse_sidewards said:
Of course. But for a project like this the PE is acting like a manager. You throw enough shit at them and something is gonna get by.

With all the cost cutting going on I assume they designed the thing by having a bunch of cheap entry level engineers flinging shit at the wall.


I don't think they had the budget for experienced engineers. These guys are mostly the old white men they don't want anyway.


They did. IIRC the structure was designed to withstand far more than the pressure at 14k feet.
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A PE will never just rubber stamp something. It's their ass if it fails. That's the point. And a PE may be a chief engineer but that doesn't make them a manager. Your assumptions do not align in any way shape or form to the real world experience I've seen.

New engineers don't fling shit at a wall, they are more interested in simply finding their footing. Most are scared of their own shadow.

Not to mention, no company would hand a decision to a brand new engineer that put life and limb on the line. The liability alone would keep that from happening.
 
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