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Texas Gov Abbot/National Guard Block Border Patrol

rockmup said:
You're on crack if you think invaders are protected by the Constitution. Have liberal courts sided with you, sure. Is it correct, absolutely not.

Texas97 I think you're confused about my question, I fully agree with you.
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There's more than a century of Supreme Court rulings on this. Government can't infringe on things like speech or illegal searches based on citizenship or legal status. Hell it's supposed to to restrict our government overseas as well but it's one more thing they just ignore.
 
Texas97 said:
While I agree with what you're saying, the constitution protects rights that don't exist in "nature" like the right to vote. You don't have a natural right to that because that only exists of government exists.
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That's specifically why I made the distinction. I'm only talking things like freedom of speech, illegal search and seizure, torture/unreasonable punishment, etc.
 
Why do y'all think they have deportation hearings before deporting people? The government is required to follow due process before removing people and have to prove they're here illegally because they have to presume innocence.

Constitutional rights extending to everyone has been long established. This isn't some far left concept.
 
Pretty sure the 5’ nothing fucktard shoving QT hotdogs in his facehole at QT while the cashier wasnt looking was illegal. Pretty sure the other 20 that fit the beaner profile, non of who spoke English or could count cash he was with, were all illegal.

I deduced all that within 10 seconds and nobodies rights violated.
 
Motorcharge said:
That's specifically why I made the distinction. I'm only talking things like freedom of speech, illegal search and seizure, torture/unreasonable punishment, etc.
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Well, to what you are saying, freedom of speech references that you are free from government punishment for speaking. If there is no government, do you have freedom of speech as we define it? In the natural state, you don't have that freedom. If you speak you may be beaten by a fellow human, found out while hiding from a wild animal, or whathaveyou.
 
There is a pretty good 14th Amendment argument that illegals do not have the legal protections of naturalized citizens. They were not born here, are not naturalized and it's arguable that they fall under the jurisdiction of their home countries because they have citizenship there.

There is not a judge in the land that has the balls to rule on it because they will be labeled racist though.
 
Texas97 said:
Well, to what you are saying, freedom of speech references that you are free from government punishment for speaking. If there is no government, do you have freedom of speech as we define it? In the natural state, you don't have that freedom. If you speak you may be beaten by a fellow human, found out while hiding from a wild animal, or whathaveyou.
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Almost like you're inherently free to speak your mind until someone else infringes on those rights? Why do you think the First and Second Amendments are first and second?

Freedom if speech exists because you exist. You have the natural right to defend that as well as your other natural rights.
 
WhiteTrash303 said:
There is a pretty good 14th Amendment argument that illegals do not have the legal protections of naturalized citizens. They were not born here, are not naturalized and it's arguable that they fall under the jurisdiction of their home countries because they have citizenship there.

There is not a judge in the land that has the balls to rule on it because they will be labeled racist though.
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By that same argument you would have to recognize foreign goverment jurisdiction within the United States and that whole argument falls apart on that. Here illegally or not, they're under our jurisdiction only.
 
Motorcharge said:
Almost like you're inherently free to speak your mind until someone else infringes on those rights? Why do you think the First and Second Amendments are first and second?

Freedom if speech exists because you exist. You have the natural right to defend that as well as your other natural rights.
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freedom of speech, as the constitution protects it, doesnt prevent someone from punching you in the mouth. people, even in our society, do not have to recognize your freedom of speech. and especially since its tied to the government, if no government exists, you dont really have that right.


has there been a private individual in our country that has been prosecuted for violating another individuals right to free speech, where the private individual was not also a government employee?
 
Motorcharge said:
By that same argument you would have to recognize foreign goverment jurisdiction within the United States and that whole argument falls apart on that. Here illegally or not, they're under our jurisdiction only.
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Exactly. If our country was to go by another country's laws because the illegal is from that country, we'd be executing gay arabs.
 
Texas97 said:
freedom of speech, as the constitution protects it, doesnt prevent someone from punching you in the mouth. people, even in our society, do not have to recognize your freedom of speech. and especially since its tied to the government, if no government exists, you dont really have that right.


has there been a private individual in our country that has been prosecuted for violating another individuals right to free speech, where the private individual was not also a government employee?
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I said from the start the Constitution only restricted the government.

Yeah, someone can punch me in the mouth for opening it, but I can punch them right back in defense of myself.

I'm not sure what your point is here or what it had to do with anything.
 
Motorcharge said:
I said from the start the Constitution only restricted the government.

Yeah, someone can punch me in the mouth for opening it, but I can punch them right back in defense of myself.

I'm not sure what your point is here or what it had to do with anything.
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My point is, you have a natural right to defend yourself, one of the most basic tenets of nature. You don't have a natural right to free speech as we know it, unless government exists.

Do you follow now?
 
Texas97 said:
My point is, you have a natural right to defend yourself, one of the most basic tenets of nature. You don't have a natural right to free speech as we know it, unless government exists.

Do you follow now?
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Yes you do lol

Just because someone else can and will infringe on your rights, whether it's an individual or a government, doesnt mean they don't exist.

Is a bear going to recognize your right to free speach? Of course not, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

You fundamentally do not understand the concept of natural rights or where rights are derived from.
 
Motorcharge said:
By that same argument you would have to recognize foreign goverment jurisdiction within the United States and that whole argument falls apart on that. Here illegally or not, they're under our jurisdiction only.
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mostly.. but not completely. See extradition concepts.

Also, your statement implies that once I travel to another country, my citizenship does not travel with me... which I agree is a gray area in legal discussions.
 
Motorcharge said:
Is a bear going to recognize your right to free speach? Of course not, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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Thats exactly why it doesnt exist. you dont have a RIGHT to free speech in nature. you cant say NATURE gave you a "right" and then nature turns around and takes that right away, whether its a bear, a virus, or cancer.

a more accurate statement is that you have the God given natural right to stay silent.
 
rockota said:
mostly.. but not completely. See extradition concepts.

Also, your statement implies that once I travel to another country, my citizenship does not travel with me... which I agree is a gray area in legal discussions.
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We have extradition treaties but that still requires our cooperation within our borders. If you're wanted in a foreign country agents of that nation can't just come enforce their laws on our soil. We have to arrest the person and turn them over and we generally only do that for coubtries we recgnize as having similar legal standards as us.
 
Texas97 said:
freedom of speech, as the constitution protects it, doesnt prevent someone from punching you in the mouth. people, even in our society, do not have to recognize your freedom of speech. and especially since its tied to the government, if no government exists, you dont really have that right.


has there been a private individual in our country that has been prosecuted for violating another individuals right to free speech, where the private individual was not also a government employee?
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To clear up most of page 6, the bill of rights and the remainder of the constitution don't bestow rights on anyone. Rather, it acknowledges the principles that human beings DO have those rights without the need to spell it out, and thereby limits the government's ability to intrude upon them. You can do whatever the hell you want until a law deems it illegal. But no law can be made that infringes on what is established in the constitution as an inalienable right.

Regarding illegal aliens and the constitutional protections, in state law there is no check to confirm someone is a citizen. If a cop searches an illegal alien without probable cause, then there is a remedy to be had, as the constitution prevents unlawful action by the state, irrespective of the person searched.

The takeaway is that the constitution is a limit on the government's power. You don't have a legal right to free speech. Instead, you have a right to be free from unreasonable limitations of speech by the government under most situations.
 
Bonanza said:
To clear up most of page 6, the bill of rights and the remainder of the constitution don't bestow rights on anyone. Rather, it acknowledges the principles that human beings DO have those rights without the need to spell it out, and thereby limits the government's ability to intrude upon them. You can do whatever the hell you want until a law deems it illegal. But no law can be made that infringes on what is established in the constitution as an inalienable right.

Regarding illegal aliens and the constitutional protections, in state law there is no check to confirm someone is a citizen. If a cop searches an illegal alien without probable cause, then there is a remedy to be had, as the constitution prevents unlawful action by the state, irrespective of the person searched.

The takeaway is that the constitution is a limit on the government's power. You don't have a legal right to free speech. Instead, you have a right to be free from unreasonable limitations of speech by the government under most situations.
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thank you, captain obvious.
 
Motorcharge said:
Why do y'all think they have deportation hearings before deporting people? The government is required to follow due process before removing people and have to prove they're here illegally because they have to presume innocence.

Constitutional rights extending to everyone has been long established. This isn't some far left concept.
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"hurr durr it's different when it's policy I like because reasons"

-unprincipled pieces of shit who are why we as a nation are in the decline we're in
 
arse_sidewards said:
"hurr durr it's different when it's policy I like because reasons"

-unprincipled pieces of shit who are why we as a nation are in the decline we're in
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Hey dumbfuck evrey country outside the US only speaks Spanish and the people are short and brown, idiot:flipoff2:Pretty cut and dry profiling process... tard:flipoff2:
 
Texas97 said:
That was a real thing, at one point. Concentration is probably not the right term, but I did some feasibility for a site near beeville several years ago stacking fema trailers with 2-4' of space between eave overhang. It was like 30 acres.

This was for a contractor bidding on the work. I think it was drainage and utility design and fencing. Been about 7-8 years ago. Wasn't told why. Certain they did not build it
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I bet you believed the guy that said he saw Elvis at the mall last weekend too. It's been completely debunked.
 
SanDiegoCJ said:
I bet you believed the guy that said he saw Elvis at the mall last weekend too. It's been completely debunked.
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ok, so the contractor and gov guys were Elvis in this scenario and that didnt really happen, is that what you are telling me? you're telling me i didnt really do that?

i just want to be clear what you are saying here, because this rises to a new level of arrogance, even for you. Are you telling me that didnt happen?
 
Bullshit the Constitution applies to invading fuckups.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

If our Constitution applies to everyone in the world, then why the fuck does anyone need to move here? Why aren't we bitching about violations of the Constitution for people in China? The idea that it applies to any moron who happens to set foot in the boundary is fucking stupid. Basic human rights? Yes. All the benefits of being a citizen? Fuck no.
 
rockota said:
mostly.. but not completely. See extradition concepts.

Also, your statement implies that once I travel to another country, my citizenship does not travel with me... which I agree is a gray area in legal discussions.
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Nothing gray about it, of course your citizenship travels with you. Its protections and rights do not
 
Elwenil said:
Bullshit the Constitution applies to invading fuckups.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

If our Constitution applies to everyone in the world, then why the fuck does anyone need to move here? Why aren't we bitching about violations of the Constitution for people in China? The idea that it applies to any moron who happens to set foot in the boundary is fucking stupid. Basic human rights? Yes. All the benefits of being a citizen? Fuck no.
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It applies to the territorial boundaries of the USA.

“it must be concluded that all persons within the territory of the United States are entitled to the protection guarantied by those amendments, and that even aliens shall not be . . . deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law.” Wong Wing, 163 U.S. at 238

To be sure, most of the constitution refers to the "people" or "persons" of the United States, not citizens. And, the "constitutional rights" are mostly the big ones here-- search, seizure, due process, for example. It would be pretty messed up for someone traveling from, Europe as an example, to be able to be legally pulled over and cavity searched because they aren't citizens. Checks on government power should be broad, in my opinion.
 
Elwenil said:
Purge them. It's the easiest way.


Just sell hunting licenses with tags.

Once that gets out, the motherfuckers won't want to come here and mooch.
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I know this is in jest, but I could see a “no mans” land created on the border that anybody could be shot in with no consequences for the shooter. I bet that would solve it quick and cheap.
 
Texas97 said:
That was a real thing, at one point. Concentration is probably not the right term, but I did some feasibility for a site near beeville several years ago stacking fema trailers with 2-4' of space between eave overhang. It was like 30 acres.

This was for a contractor bidding on the work. I think it was drainage and utility design and fencing. Been about 7-8 years ago. Wasn't told why. Certain they did not build it
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Sounds concentrated
 
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