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Russia / Ukraine thread

Yota Up said:
Yup. I have no idea what to think with all this.
Can someone act like Putin's lawyer and give me his side?
A good lawyer can argue both sides. So far, all I see is 100% Putin bad from everywhere. Life is rarely so black and white, usually a little middle ground somewhere. Even if it's a pathetic and weak argument, one should exist.

Too many people signaling, too. All the posers on facebook and elsewhere acting like tough guys. All the people posing with guns and talking big shit. Shut up and do it if that's what you're on. UK president on the ground in battle rattle? Bullshit. That was also from years ago.

I doubt any take from Putin would sway my basic primal morals that find it's not ok to bring war when it's not needed, let alone the innocent civilians being hurt. Gonna be a big sell to justify that, but I'd still like to hear it anyway.
Click to expand...

Guy gives a pretty good rundown of the history of how we got here.

First 90 minutes. The first non-Ukraine part isn't that long, they get into it fairly quickly.

Start at 11:00:

 
94toytruck said:
Wait, what? Thousands of people protested here over our presidential vote and it didn't mean shit. Why would it matter there? Protesting doesn't do shit anywhere unless it's not peaceful.
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Because protesting in Russia gets you thrown in prison. If protests continue you'll probably see a comeback of the gulags. Americans often forget that the rest of the world isn't America. There's no 1st Amendment in Russia. Protestors over there are taking a very real risk.

And the protests over the Presidential vote led to multiple investigations into the election. They didn't come up with shit, just like the left's "Russiagate" investigations into Trump didn't come up with shit. The morons clinging to either are just that... morons.
 
I do find this whole thing a bit weird. Not that we're being lied to or the crazy propaganda, that's normal. Propaganda is an important part of war.

The weirdest part is the conflict itself. 150,000 troops for a full scale invasion of another country? By a country whose history has shown a penchant for bringing overwhelming force to bear, even when it wasn't advantageous or tactically smart to do so? Did they send everything that was combat ready? If that's the case than we've long overestimated their abilities and strength.

They seem to be trying to fight a war like the West has for the last 25 years. Overtake the country but do it in the least destructive way, which while smart in the sense that you don't want to level the very thing you're trying to capture, is also dumb in the sense that it's proven to be ineffectual at ultimate victory.

NATO cannot, absolutely cannot, install a No Fly Zone. No Fly Zones have to be implemented with idea of actually denying the air space, which means shooting down transgressors. NATO blows the first Russian plane out of the sky and they are then at a decato state of war with Russia. Air superiority isn't a question, so if the Russian air force was swept from the skies, Russia would see that destruction as a direct threat to the homeland. Their threshold for, at the least, tactical nuclear weapons release is a lot lower than the Wests and the destruction of their air force would qualify as a condition for their use.

It sounds insane, and I think the likelihood of that happening is extremely low, but this is the game being played and it really is only one or two moves away from losing control of the board. Of course the real insanity is thinking one has control in the first place, but that's another matter.
 
aczlan said:
It is so the other Russians know that they are Russian equipment, not Ukrainian (given that the Ukrainians have a fair amount of Russian equipment).

Aaron Z
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They are using several different letters, to denote which battle group they are from (not just the letter Z)
 
westracing01 said:
I do find this whole thing a bit weird. Not that we're being lied to or the crazy propaganda, that's normal. Propaganda is an important part of war.

The weirdest part is the conflict itself. 150,000 troops for a full scale invasion of another country? By a country whose history has shown a penchant for bringing overwhelming force to bear, even when it wasn't advantageous or tactically smart to do so? Did they send everything that was combat ready? If that's the case than we've long overestimated their abilities and strength.

They seem to be trying to fight a war like the West has for the last 25 years. Overtake the country but do it in the least destructive way, which while smart in the sense that you don't want to level the very thing you're trying to capture, is also dumb in the sense that it's proven to be ineffectual at ultimate victory.

NATO cannot, absolutely cannot, install a No Fly Zone. No Fly Zones have to be implemented with idea of actually denying the air space, which means shooting down transgressors. NATO blows the first Russian plane out of the sky and they are then at a decato state of war with Russia. Air superiority isn't a question, so if the Russian air force was swept from the skies, Russia would see that destruction as a direct threat to the homeland. Their threshold for, at the least, tactical nuclear weapons release is a lot lower than the Wests and the destruction of their air force would qualify as a condition for their use.

It sounds insane, and I think the likelihood of that happening is extremely low, but this is the game being played and it really is only one or two moves away from losing control of the board. Of course the real insanity is thinking one has control in the first place, but that's another matter.
Click to expand...

This guy gets it, if you draw a line in the sand you have to be prepared to defend it.
 
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Provience said:
I'm just a little impressed with how well the US has stuck with "no troops" this time around.
Click to expand...
They are saying "no troops" they are sending troops to the bordering countries. There are a shit ton of troops already there. I am not saying they are getting involved but a build up of troops doesn't look like "no troops"
 
westracing01 said:
I do find this whole thing a bit weird. Not that we're being lied to or the crazy propaganda, that's normal. Propaganda is an important part of war.

The weirdest part is the conflict itself. 150,000 troops for a full scale invasion of another country? By a country whose history has shown a penchant for bringing overwhelming force to bear, even when it wasn't advantageous or tactically smart to do so? Did they send everything that was combat ready? If that's the case than we've long overestimated their abilities and strength.

They seem to be trying to fight a war like the West has for the last 25 years. Overtake the country but do it in the least destructive way, which while smart in the sense that you don't want to level the very thing you're trying to capture, is also dumb in the sense that it's proven to be ineffectual at ultimate victory.

NATO cannot, absolutely cannot, install a No Fly Zone. No Fly Zones have to be implemented with idea of actually denying the air space, which means shooting down transgressors. NATO blows the first Russian plane out of the sky and they are then at a decato state of war with Russia. Air superiority isn't a question, so if the Russian air force was swept from the skies, Russia would see that destruction as a direct threat to the homeland. Their threshold for, at the least, tactical nuclear weapons release is a lot lower than the Wests and the destruction of their air force would qualify as a condition for their use.

It sounds insane, and I think the likelihood of that happening is extremely low, but this is the game being played and it really is only one or two moves away from losing control of the board. Of course the real insanity is thinking one has control in the first place, but that's another matter.
Click to expand...
Estimates of 50-75% of Russian forces are actively involved with the Ukraine land rush. That ls another odd point though, obviously they can't go 100% as there is a bunch of other stuff to get done, but they are doing this with a huge amount of their force.

It's just apparently garbage
 
Mr.Ratbastard said:
They are saying "no troops" they are sending troops to the bordering countries. There are a shit ton of troops already there. I am not saying they are getting involved but a build up of troops doesn't look like "no troops"
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Compare what is currently going on to any engagement the US has previously been "not" involved in though.

Troop buildup in nato countries is pretty simple stuff
 
Yota Up said:
You really think it's just a coincidence the last action was before Trump and the current one after Trump. Like Putin just happened to have a 4 year gap in his schedule and by luck Trump happened to occupy WH during those exact years?
Click to expand...
Syria.... Which to be fair, Russian involvement started before Cheeto Jesus, but the russians were exercising equipment there during the entirety of orange man's rein. Its not like they took 4 years off from foreign interventions, they were just invited that time.

I saw an interview the other day that talked about how Russian brass in recent years came to the conclusion that it was cheaper to rotate their forces in Syria on 3-4 month rotations than it was to adequately train them at home - which in hindsight maybe is indicative of a problem with how they (don't) train at home, at least for the reserve/conscripts.

My dad was 82nd in the late 70s/early 80s and was a TOW/Dragon Missile tech(precursor to the javelin) so I was pretty curious to hear his take, since the Ukrainians are living through what he war gamed many, many times. When asked about NATO forces being used in any sort of active way, he said no, NATO is willing to arm and fight to the very last Ukrainian. The interesting thing to him is going to be the data that comes out of this - Javelins and NLAWs being used side by side, compared to RPGs, effectiveness of stingers, ect. A lot of 1970s/1980s war plans being dusted off right now. Very convenient that the russians were kind enough to send in that vintage equipment too...
 
djljeep said:
Syria.... Which to be fair, Russian involvement started before Cheeto Jesus, but the russians were exercising equipment there during the entirety of orange man's rein. Its not like they took 4 years off from foreign interventions, they were just invited that time.

I saw an interview the other day that talked about how Russian brass in recent years came to the conclusion that it was cheaper to rotate their forces in Syria on 3-4 month rotations than it was to adequately train them at home - which in hindsight maybe is indicative of a problem with how they (don't) train at home, at least for the reserve/conscripts.

My dad was 82nd in the late 70s/early 80s and was a TOW/Dragon Missile tech(precursor to the javelin) so I was pretty curious to hear his take, since the Ukrainians are living through what he war gamed many, many times. When asked about NATO forces being used in any sort of active way, he said no, NATO is willing to arm and fight to the very last Ukrainian. The interesting thing to him is going to be the data that comes out of this - Javelins and NLAWs being used side by side, compared to RPGs, effectiveness of stingers, ect. A lot of 1970s/1980s war plans being dusted off right now. Very convenient that the russians were kind enough to send in that vintage equipment too...
Click to expand...
:laughing:
 
djljeep said:
Syria.... Which to be fair, Russian involvement started before Cheeto Jesus, but the russians were exercising equipment there during the entirety of orange man's rein. Its not like they took 4 years off from foreign interventions, they were just invited that time.
Click to expand...
Not exactly the same. Russia siding with and supporting the "government" of Syria against Syrian rebels isn't the same thing as invading another country. That's not even an apples to oranges comparison, more like apples to ribeye steaks.
 
MChat said:
Not exactly the same. Russia siding with and supporting the "government" of Syria against Syrian rebels isn't the same thing as invading another country. That's not even an apples to oranges comparison, more like apples to ribeye steaks.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Invading a sovereign nation that hasn't attacked you or repeatedly broken a signed agreement is pure bullshit.
Putin invaded Ukraine to grab territory and resources, period. The other "reasons" given are also pure bullshit.
Sad to see so many people have bought Putin's lies. Whether the Ukraine's government is corrupt or not is totally irrelevant.
 
It is weird watching the videos though

The Russian soldiers just waking around with Ukrainian civilians

The soldiers are not concerned the least bit about the civilians harming them .

And civilians just ignoring the Russian troops like they weren’t even there when they could easily kill them with a deer rifle shot .

It’s very strange

Stuff is getting blown up but otherwise it’s like it’s not even a war
 
SanDiegoCJ said:
Exactly. Invading a sovereign nation that hasn't attacked you or repeatedly broken a signed agreement is pure bullshit.
Putin invaded Ukraine to grab territory and resources, period. The other "reasons" given are also pure bullshit.
Sad to see so many people have bought Putin's lies. Whether the Ukraine's government is corrupt or not is totally irrelevant.
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You need to do more research into the history as to how and why this whole conflict popped off rather than discounting it as all bullshit.
 
Slander said:
You need to do more research into the history as to how and why this whole conflict popped off rather than discounting it as all bullshit.
Click to expand...
I've done my research. I don't buy the line the Putin's invasion is justified.
You probably would have said Germany's invasion of Poland was justified.
 
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Nothing is plausible at this point (IMO).

To many people who never wanted to be/deserved to be stuck in the middle of this shit-fest are stuck in the middle of this shit-fest (of course, that is most often the case when folks start rattling their sabres around).

Fuck all the people who are pushing these pawns around.
 
61Z-GOZUArL._AC_SX466_.jpg
 
I am tired of trying to make sense of this debacle and the rest of the world. Like always, everybody sits on their hands and watch the innocents and history get wiped out and after is too too late for so many, someone may step in and maybe slow the killing. History just repeats itself and no one every learns from it. I am counting the days down until I quit my job and disappear into the woods.
 
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