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Russia / Ukraine thread

gladman said:
we averaged spending about 140 billion a year to fight in Iraq (and we had to use our own guys)

In 3 years letting Ukraine fight their own war and deplete one of our chief enemies it has cost about 110 billion.

We get a lot more geo political bang for our buck from Ukraine war than fucking around in Iraq and Afghanistan.... 33 billion a year is chump change compared to the cost of running a cold war and all the rest that we have to do combat the Russians. I feel no shame in funding the Ukrainian people in their fight with their enemy... and I'm glad no US soldiers are lost there.

China won't implode because of birthrate, they will run out of seats in the middle class and will have their usual uprising and chaos. Tick tock. Coming for sure.

Japan with low birthrate and the aging of the remaining citizenry will have to import folks (they already are doing this) to run the country... the result is predictable based on who is being imported.

We have plenty of time to deal with the folks who have wandered (and been given permission) toward fascism and reactionary stuff... it will resolve itself.
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Why is Russia still viewed as one of our chief enemies? Other than their nuclear arsenal what do they have to threaten us military or economically? We just have a bunch of dinosaurs in our government and deep state who still view Russia as the USSR. They're a mere shadow of that now.
 
east_beast said:
Why is Russia still viewed as one of our chief enemies?
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It's opposite world and BS.
They should be our friends, all because we succeeded in turning the tide against communism.
They are a success story, having overcome the commie way of life and embracing a new day.

That was our goal back in the day, right? To turn commie countries normal?
And here they go and do it, and we turn our back on them? We should have been friends with them as soon as their commie crap went out of the window. They deserve our applause, at least on that aspect.

Oh, but wait. They reject the gay agenda and don't open their borders to hordes of low IQ illegals, so our overlords are mad because they won't bend the knee to those agendas and become a liberal sesspit. Makes sense.
 
east_beast said:
Why is Russia still viewed as one of our chief enemies? Other than their nuclear arsenal what do they have to threaten us military or economically? We just have a bunch of dinosaurs in our government and deep state who still view Russia as the USSR. They're a mere shadow of that now.
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If someone is Russia pushes The Button tomorrow, where do their nukes fly?

Let's assume that their claims of modernizing their nuclear arsenal is unfounded and their long range nukes are in disrepair and only 1/3rd actually hit their targets. It's estimated they have around 300 icbms give or take. Each Russia. ICBM carries between 6 and 10 warheads, and I think I saw something that the total yield of each ICBM is 800 KT. According to the Internet, an 800 KT blast would have a radius of a little over half a mile, and the blast pressure would cause 400 square miles of damage.

100 of those landing in the US would be bad.

Say you and your neighbor don't trust each other over some sort of dispute and you each end up pointing a loaded gun at each other. Now you do that for years on end. Who puts theirs down first?

Bonus question - while they are pointing a loaded gun at you, do you trust them in other matters?
 
Sandy Johnson said:
If someone is Russia pushes The Button tomorrow, where do their nukes fly?

Let's assume that their claims of modernizing their nuclear arsenal is unfounded and their long range nukes are in disrepair and only 1/3rd actually hit their targets. It's estimated they have around 300 icbms give or take. Each Russia. ICBM carries between 6 and 10 warheads, and I think I saw something that the total yield of each ICBM is 800 KT. According to the Internet, an 800 KT blast would have a radius of a little over half a mile, and the blast pressure would cause 400 square miles of damage.

100 of those landing in the US would be bad.

Say you and your neighbor don't trust each other over some sort of dispute and you each end up pointing a loaded gun at each other. Now you do that for years on end. Who puts theirs down first?

Bonus question - while they are pointing a loaded gun at you, do you trust them in other matters?
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Their only threat to us is their nuclear arsenal. So why poke the bear? Why gleefully enter into a full on proxy war with them to defend the territorial sovereignty of a nation that means fuck all to us and that we have no treaty obligations to defend? It's just insanity.
 
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east_beast said:
Their only threat to us is their nuclear arsenal. So why poke the bear? Why gleefully enter into a full on proxy war with them to defend the territorial sovereignty of a nation that means fuck all to us and that we have no treaty obligations to defend? It's just insanity.
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We can't set the precedent that we will roll over and "not like the bear" for any country that points nukes at us.
 
Sandy Johnson said:
We can't set the precedent that we will roll over and "not like the bear" for any country that points nukes at us.
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How would we be rolling over? We have no treat obligations to Ukraine. They're not NATO. They're just patsies in our proxy war.

This "we must project strength" foreign policy stance that they always just use to feed the MIC is just not strategic. Well, I mean it's strategic to feeding the MIC but that's it.
 
east_beast said:
Their only threat to us is their nuclear arsenal. So why poke the bear? Why gleefully enter into a full on proxy war with them to defend the territorial sovereignty of a nation that means fuck all to us and that we have no treaty obligations to defend? It's just insanity.
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Seriously?

Is this a serious question?

When someone pays you a bribe, they expect services in return.

I truly believe this is more about that than anything else.
 
grumpy356 said:
Seriously?

Is this a serious question?

When someone pays you a bribe, they expect services in return.
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Oh, I fully understand that it's the MIC pulling the levers.

I honestly think this whole Ukraine show is a direct downstream event of Biden going through with the Afghanistan pull out. They never expected to lose that 20 year cash cow. The utter chaos of the actual execution of the pull out showed there was never any actual planning behind it. They never expected to have to actually do it. Trump was the one who put that in the books. They figured Biden would undo it. He didn't. Okay, buddy. Not you gotta replace that cash cow? What are you gonna do? Well, let's start beating that Ukraine into NATO drum knowing that's the brightest of redlines for Russia. Russia invaded Ukraine. Ta da! There's your Ukraine replacement.
 
east_beast said:
never expected to lose that 20 year cash cow. The udder chaos of the actual execution of the pull out showed there was never any actual planning behind it.
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FIFY. You're slipping :flipoff2:

As for the rest of your theory- Ukraine v Russia has been brewing longer than Biden or Trump has been at the helm and some would say that certain US agencies were there driving the shift back then. I think it's a matter of US foreign policy trying to prevent Russia from taking back their old USSR borders and Russia being pissed off that we're doing it.

Should we even be sticking our nose there? I dunno, but at some point the conditions were ripe for cold-war era USSR to be a threat to the US, and perhaps it's best to prevent those conditions from happening again. Keep in mind that before tensions in Ukraine were a thing, Russian bombers were still probing US fighter response times near Alaska without provocation.
 
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gladman said:
pretty much everyone I know, and definitely the people here, see themselves as independent, critical thinkers. Many see them selves as learned in history, politics and economics. What percent are the product of the public schools.

I know folks will say they learned all of it from Mark Levin or something and not the commie teachers they had in public school, but, most public schools state, as a core goal, to create life long learners... so, they would do a victory lap for creating people who had to go find out for themselves.
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:laughing: that's the public school mindset, the illusion of choice.

"Yes, we are free thinkers, all alike"

Communist fucks :laughing:
 
Sandy Johnson said:
We can't set the precedent that we will roll over and "not like the bear" for any country that points nukes at us.
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What the fuck? :lmao: we've done that for decades.

We've let Russia run amok constantly to its neighbors. Even Ukraine


Compare 2014 ukraine/Russia relations and actions to 2024.....wildly different US responses.

Hell, I'd give more support to Georgia. We absolutely stood by as Russia rolled tanks into their capital though
 
gladman said:
pretty much everyone I know, and definitely the people here, see themselves as independent, critical thinkers. Many see them selves as learned in history, politics and economics. What percent are the product of the public schools.

I know folks will say they learned all of it from Mark Levin or something and not the commie teachers they had in public school, but, most public schools state, as a core goal, to create life long learners... so, they would do a victory lap for creating people who had to go find out for themselves.
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You're peddling the same exact same "not quite technically a lie but a distinction without a difference" sort of thinking as every other shitbag who says things like "you can still do X" where X is some thing you people have convinced the government to add a bunch of cost and expense and red tape and bullshit to (or danger if one forgoes those) with the goal of reducing the number of people doing X.

Yes, it's possible for a random median person from the population to do it. But it's far less probably than if the .gov didn't fuck around putting its thumb on the scale.

The indoctrination we get in school is functionally equivalent to that red tape and BS. Yes, people can tackle it on their own free time later in life but voluntarily doing all that takes a level of commitment that not everyone will have and of those that do many of them will not have it for many years.

By stifling some percentage of people who could or would have otherwise become critical thinkers by giving them a ready made world view within the bounds of what the propaganda machine considers acceptable the number of critical thinkers is greatly reduced.
 
Sandy Johnson said:
FIFY. You're slipping :flipoff2:

As for the rest of your theory- Ukraine v Russia has been brewing longer than Biden or Trump has been at the helm and some would say that certain US agencies were there driving the shift back then. I think it's a matter of US foreign policy trying to prevent Russia from taking back their old USSR borders and Russia being pissed off that we're doing it.

Should we even be sticking our nose there? I dunno, but at some point the conditions were ripe for cold-war era USSR to be a threat to the US, and perhaps it's best to prevent those conditions from happening again. Keep in mind that before tensions in Ukraine were a thing, Russian bombers were still probing US fighter response times near Alaska without provocation.
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I think what is best to be prevented is returning to an era of playing nuclear annihilation chicken and we're headed back that direction. And for what? Because of the territorial sovereignty of what was always considered the most corrupt country in Europe before Russia invaded? A country that we have no treaty obligations to protect? A country that isn't a major trade partner? The risk/reward analysis is virtually all risk.
 
east_beast said:
I think what is best to be prevented is returning to an era of playing nuclear annihilation chicken and we're headed back that direction. And for what? Because of the territorial sovereignty of what was always considered the most corrupt country in Europe before Russia invaded? A country that we have no treaty obligations to protect? A country that isn't a major trade partner? The risk/reward analysis is virtually all risk.
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It's a proxy war. There's not as much risk as you're alluding to and the US and Russia have been playing games like this for a long time. Russia even set the ground rules. They have repeatedly stated what level of involvement from the US and the rest of NATO would cross the line and have them considering the nuclear option.
 
Provience said:
What the fuck? :lmao: we've done that for decades.

We've let Russia run amok constantly to its neighbors. Even Ukraine


Compare 2014 ukraine/Russia relations and actions to 2024.....wildly different US responses.

Hell, I'd give more support to Georgia. We absolutely stood by as Russia rolled tanks into their capital though
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Look where Georgia is on a map and then look where Ukraine is on a map. NATO is clearing drawing a line in the sand. We also didn't do much for Cechnya. There's a pattern there.

Something else to consider with every single one of the areas that wanted to re-join Russia and given Putin an excuse to occupy those territories- Back in the day, the USSR had problems with many of their republics not actually wanting to be part of the USSR(probably because it sucked). To stop entire areas from getting all nationalistic, they would take natives from that country and force them to relocate somewhere else, and often would then move in Russians or others from another soviet republic in their place. This kept people from having a sense of national identity outside of being part of the USSR. Fast forward to the breakup of the USSR, and now you have these pockets of Russians who are fiercely loyal to Russia living in places like Moldovia, Ukraine, Georgia, etc. They start protesting that they want to be part of Russia and not whatever country they are in, the locals resent them and start treating them poorly for not loving the country they live in, and now Putin has an excuse to swoop in and "protect" them, and help them "re-join" Russia.

This would be like Mexicans moving into southern Texas, and then getting a large enough population to start violently protesting that they want to be Mexicans and not Americans until enough Mexicans get hurt that Mexico gets to say they are going to move their military into south Texas to protect the protesters.
 
Sandy Johnson said:
It's a proxy war. There's not as much risk as you're alluding to and the US and Russia have been playing games like this for a long time. Russia even set the ground rules. They have repeatedly stated what level of involvement from the US and the rest of NATO would cross the line and have them considering the nuclear option.
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And we keep pushing the boundaries. I think that our shot callers don't think there's much risk. I don't know that I agree. It's not like Russia is going to put all their cards on the table.
 
east_beast said:
And we keep pushing the boundaries. I think that our shot callers don't think there's much risk. I don't know that I agree. It's not like Russia is going to put all their cards on the table.
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We all act like it's a cold war thing, but everyone is keeping their nuclear arsenal modern and streamlined. Even Russia has made claims that their arsenal is something like 80% modernized. We're still very dependent on MAD to keep things stable and that sucks.
 
We were still buying 1+ billion worth of uranium from Russia in 2023. Apparently Congress & Biden just put an end to that. No more Russian uranium starting in August...

This is an interesting interview with the Hungarian Minister of Foreign Affairs on the hypocrisy of the Russian sanctions. Should start around the 18:00 mark.

 
arse_sidewards said:
You're peddling the same exact same "not quite technically a lie but a distinction without a difference" sort of thinking as every other shitbag who says things like "you can still do X" where X is some thing you people have convinced the government to add a bunch of cost and expense and red tape and bullshit to (or danger if one forgoes those) with the goal of reducing the number of people doing X.

Yes, it's possible for a random median person from the population to do it. But it's far less probably than if the .gov didn't fuck around putting its thumb on the scale.

The indoctrination we get in school is functionally equivalent to that red tape and BS. Yes, people can tackle it on their own free time later in life but voluntarily doing all that takes a level of commitment that not everyone will have and of those that do many of them will not have it for many years.

By stifling some percentage of people who could or would have otherwise become critical thinkers by giving them a ready made world view within the bounds of what the propaganda machine considers acceptable the number of critical thinkers is greatly reduced.
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so are you smart and a product of the public schools or confused and mistaken and product of the public schools?
 
east_beast said:
Why is Russia still viewed as one of our chief enemies? their nuclear arsenal
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It is like the homie in the apt next door. Yes, he lost his job, yes, his car was repossessed, yes, he has some funky sores on his head. It is his HUGE DICK that will get him into your apt and into bed with your wife. All he needs is the big dick.

Don't believe her when she says yours is 'okay'. Don't believe rollin coal will win her over. If you have the big dick, she'll have you over.
 
Rustymofo said:
We were still buying 1+ billion worth of uranium from Russia in 2023. Apparently Congress & Biden just put an end to that. No more Russian uranium starting in August...

This is an interesting interview with the Hungarian Minister of Foreign Affairs on the hypocrisy of the Russian sanctions. Should start around the 18:00 mark.
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Woah, hadn't heard about that. Everyone got cozy with them and couldn't get out when they had to.
 
gladman said:
let me guess. Public school at least to 10th grade.
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Indeed.

Just because I went through public school doesn't mean I don't understand how sideways it is. Even as a kid going through it.

I know plenty of smart people who went to public school and are smart in things they care about and don't think critically about anything else. That's most people. If they never challenge their own thoughts on public school, it will never matter and they will continue to support the state "by default"
 
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