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Russia / Ukraine thread

Provience said:
Massive corruption in Ukraine, coupled with an inept government gives more freedom than a semi functional corrupt government. Absolutely agree, I'm not saying Russia is good and ukrain is bad, I'm saying both are bad and Ukraine isn't an idealized government even to their own citizens eyes.

That's no reason for them to not fight Russia, but it also makes sense why they are more inclined to accept any of the earlier peace treaties
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You almost got it. Ukraine got co-opted for a proxy war and Russia showed the fuck up and called bullshit.

I have no dog in this fight (from my armchair). It's ugly, but on all fronts, Russia has won. AND it was JUSTIFIED to push it.

If it isn't obvious (from even 18 months ago) why that is, people are just not paying attention.

Doesn't matter where you live or grew up, use objective eyes to SEE.
 
Icono said:
You almost got it. Ukraine got co-opted for a proxy war and Russia showed the fuck up and called bullshit.

I have no dog in this fight (from my armchair). It's ugly, but on all fronts, Russia has won. AND it was JUSTIFIED to push it.

If it isn't obvious (from even 18 months ago) why that is, people are just not paying attention.

Doesn't matter where you live or grew up, use objective eyes to SEE.
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From the outset of post USSR, Ukraine has had corruption issues.

Hell, they had issues while in the Ussr
 
Provience said:
From the outset of post USSR, Ukraine has had corruption issues.

Hell, they had issues while in the Ussr
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Farther back than that. Look up Stepan Bandera. No as much of a hero as he gets touted to be now. The west has taken advantage of those issues to stick it to Russia whenever they could.
 
Russia is a bad actor. Putin isn't a good guy. But we have always acknowledged that Ukraine was in their sphere of influence. Ukraine means infinitely more to Russia than it does to us. It means a lot to them and practically nothing to us. We just conduct foreign policy with a bully mentality. So we had to meddle in Ukraine to try to pry them away. Cold War thought leaders always knew Ukraine was the brightest of red lines to Russia. It would be like Russia sowing discord in Canada and getting a government more friendly to them than to us installed. How do you think we'd react to that? Hell, when they did something similar in Cuba 90 miles off our shore that was as close as we've come to nuclear war. We always only look at things from our perspective seemingly with no ability to see from our adversary's perspective and how we'd react if the shoe was on the other foot.

None of this is likely happening right now if it wasn't for constantly pushing NATO borders eastward and talking about admitting Ukraine was the final straw.
 
Sandy Johnson said:
Farther back than that. Look up Stepan Bandera. No as much of a hero as he gets touted to be now. The west has taken advantage of those issues to stick it to Russia whenever they could.
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And why other than to just stick it to Russia? Russia isn't the USSR anymore. They're not a legit rival to us other than their nuclear arsenal. But we still seek to oppose them like they're the USSR while conducting ourselves with the cockiness that they're simply no match for us.
 
east_beast said:
Russia is a bad actor. Putin isn't a good guy. But we have always acknowledged that Ukraine was in their sphere of influence. Ukraine means infinitely more to Russia than it does to us. It means a lot to them and practically nothing to us. We just conduct foreign policy with a bully mentality. So we had to meddle in Ukraine to try to pry them away. Cold War thought leaders always knew Ukraine was the brightest of red lines to Russia. It would be like Russia sowing discord in Canada and getting a government more friendly to them than to us installed. How do you think we'd react to that? Hell, when they did something similar in Cuba 90 miles off our shore that was as close as we've come to nuclear war. We always only look at things from our perspective seemingly with no ability to see from our adversary's perspective and how we'd react if the shoe was on the other foot.

None of this is likely happening right now if it wasn't for constantly pushing NATO borders eastward and talking about admitting Ukraine was the final straw.
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NATO doesn't just absorb countries. They have to petition to be a member.
 
east_beast said:
And why other than to just stick it to Russia? Russia isn't the USSR anymore. They're not a legit rival to us other than their nuclear arsenal. But we still seek to oppose them like they're the USSR while conducting ourselves with the cockiness that they're simply no match for us.
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our potus and congress are filled with people that grew up on the USSR. They are so senile they don’t realize that there has been a change. :stirthepot:

Plus, it helps the military industrial complex if we have an enemy. If you aren’t the world police you don’t need to spend all that money money.
 
Provience said:
Which is exactly what you are looking to continue with your Russia hate :flipoff2:
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They're not friends, they're competitors for global resources and power.

Even Trump warned the EU when they were cozying up to Russia with energy deals, and he was right.



Sure, the Democrats are flying Ukraine flags and falling all over themselves to send money, but life isnt black and white and it doesn't mean that if you're conservative, you should suddenly want to be buddies with Russia.
 
east_beast said:
And why other than to just stick it to Russia? Russia isn't the USSR anymore. They're not a legit rival to us other than their nuclear arsenal. But we still seek to oppose them like they're the USSR while conducting ourselves with the cockiness that they're simply no match for us.
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Putin would bring the ussr back in an instant if he could, and he'd step all over us to do it if that gave him and advantage.
 
Sandy Johnson said:
NATO doesn't just absorb countries. They have to petition to be a member.
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What is in it for us? I get what is in it for them but honestly I don't really care about that. I want us to actually be strategic about foreign policy, particularly entering into alliances that diplomatically require us to come to their defense. Why would we extend the umbrella of our military protection to the Baltics? To the Scandinavian countries? To Ukraine? To Poland? What are we getting in return for that protection guarantee? It's a horrible deal from our perspective. We risk getting drug into a hot war with the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet for what? For childish na na na boo boo haha gotcha scored a point bullshit? It's idiotically reckless.

The one key lesson of the Cold War that we have seemingly completely forgotten (maybe because all these Cold War disciples who are still largely in charge have dementia at this point) is that Amy hot war between the U.S. and Russia ultimately goes nuclear.
 
Sandy Johnson said:
Putin would bring the ussr back in an instant if he could, and he'd step all over us to do it if that gave him and advantage.
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Why would I care if he reunited the USSR? What does the old Soviet bloc actually contribute to our interests? Okay, he reunited the old USSR? They're still no match to us whatsoever in GDP and honestly, the only thing that really matters in geopolitics is economic might and nuclear arsenal. Russia is basically stuck in the Soviet era. They haven't evolved and we're seeing that play out in Ukraine right now. Stop looking at the current Russia as the same threat as the USSR of the 70s.
 
east_beast said:
What is in it for us? I get what is in it for them but honestly I don't really care about that. I want us to actually be strategic about foreign policy, particularly entering into alliances that diplomatically require us to come to their defense. Why would we extend the umbrella of our military protection to the Baltics? To the Scandinavian countries? To Ukraine? To Poland? What are we getting in return for that protection guarantee? It's a horrible deal from our perspective. We risk getting drug into a hot war with the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet for what? For childish na na na boo boo haha gotcha scored a point bullshit? It's idiotically reckless.

The one key lesson of the Cold War that we have seemingly completely forgotten (maybe because all these Cold War disciples who are still largely in charge have dementia at this point) is that Amy hot war between the U.S. and Russia ultimately goes nuclear.
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You do realize that Russia applied to be part of NATO, right?

WHY wasn't that "considered"?

Can you imagine how that would have changed EVERYTHING?

That's if the "NATO" charter was actually real and not the fucking MIC bullshit it always was and is.

The US hegemony couldn't stand it. They'd be called out at every turn if the "ideals" were real.
 
Sandy Johnson said:
They're not friends, they're competitors for global resources and power.

Even Trump warned the EU when they were cozying up to Russia with energy deals, and he was right.



Sure, the Democrats are flying Ukraine flags and falling all over themselves to send money, but life isnt black and white and it doesn't mean that if you're conservative, you should suddenly want to be buddies with Russia.
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Even after the Nord Stream was blown up, even the UK, through proxies, was importing Russian gas. So were many Euro countries.

:lmao:
 
Icono said:
Even after the Nord Stream was blown up, even the UK, through proxies, was importing Russian gas. So were many Euro countries.

:lmao:
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Yes, they can't live without it and it's tactically dumb... OR everyone over there needs to kiss and make up and trust Russia not to go attacking any of them.
 
Sandy Johnson said:
You tell me, you're the one that brought it up.
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I wouldn't. You're the one acting like that would be some huge deal for us. Our leaders would act like it was the end of the world and literally Hitler and a WWII moment like they do with literally everything now but at the end of the day it would have minimal actual impact on us.

Except for all that idiotic NATO expansion we did that has largely contributed to this whole current ordeal.
 
I know 4 ukrainians and 3 russians. The 4 ukrainians hate the russians and always have. no love lost. no interest in old cccp or ghey russian empire shit that putin is obsessed with (like the mustached dude)

The russians hate putin and think he had his time 10 years ago and has gone off the rails since then. They say that everyone they know back home opposes the war but, the govt has clamped down and they can't say or do shit against it.


Granted, 7 people don't make a data set to prove or disprove anything, but these folks (all men, all educated tech workers) are level headed and good dudes. They aren't political people, they just want a better life and came here because it is a shit show at home and they have skills.
 
Icono said:
Wut?
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You called some a dumbshit about this and went off like some teenager on cheap cut meth on Reddit. All to the your point that the russians never intended to take Kiev or effect regime change. And a whole lot more vile bullshit. So here is a teaspoon of your own shit. Surely there is not confusion in my statement. The Russians attempted to sieze the Kiev airport the morning of the invasion. Wut ? WTF - are you twitching so bad you cant think ?

I agree with you about a lot of your take on Ukraine but take a fluffy pill or three and settle the fuck down. :eek:
 
Splib said:
You called some a dumbshit about this and went off like some teenager on cheap cut meth on Reddit. All to the your point that the russians never intended to take Kiev or effect regime change. And a whole lot more vile bullshit. So here is a teaspoon of your own shit. Surely there is not confusion in my statement. The Russians attempted to sieze the Kiev airport the morning of the invasion. Wut ? WTF - are you twitching so bad you cant think ?

I agree with you about a lot of your take on Ukraine but take a fluffy pill or three and settle the fuck down. :eek:
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Okey dokey.

:confused:
 
east_beast said:
I wouldn't. You're the one acting like that would be some huge deal for us. Our leaders would act like it was the end of the world and literally Hitler and a WWII moment like they do with literally everything now but at the end of the day it would have minimal actual impact on us.

Except for all that idiotic NATO expansion we did that has largely contributed to this whole current ordeal.
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If the actual ussr came back, we would definitely have problems, starting with the fact that many of the countries that made up the old ussr would put up a fight before they went back. There is a reason why the chose to leave in the first place. Secondly, Putin violently re-annexing those countries would start another arms race/cold war if somehow the west managed to stay out of those invasions in the first place. If you thought fuel prices sucked when Russia got sanctioned, just wait until everyone starts hording resources to prepare for war.

Sticking your head in the sand and acting like things in Europe don't affect us in our current globally connected world doesn't make it true.
 
Sandy Johnson said:
Well, when you put it that way, I can finally recognize the genuis of your argument. What was I ever thinking?
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You provided no argument, nor did you even LOOK at what I mentioned.

Even in passing, you never even let it sink in for more than a nano-second.

Maybe you did, and couldn't fathom it?

I'm hoping you're just wilfully ignorant. Seems to suit you in your comfort zone.
 
Icono said:
You provided no argument, nor did you even LOOK at what I mentioned.
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Oh I looked, which is what prompted my question.

One statement into your post and I was already questioning your knowledge on the subject. Everyone here knows Russia petitioned NATO to join, it's no real revelation. Anyone who knows the history of NATO also realizes that what Russia was doing was trolling. If other European countries actually trusted Russia to be peaceful, then NATO wouldn't need to exist. Ukraine isn't the only place they've shown aggression since the breakup of the USSR(look at Moldovia, Georgia, and the Kuril islands as examples). I do understand that in Ukraine's case they were provoked more than in other incidents, but Russia is far from an innocent victim.
 
Agreed that Russia is certainly no victim, but you leave a LOT out. Russia is bad because the US says it is? Riiiiiight.

Get past the first section in this sock puppet wikipedia entry, and see how your knowledge holds up.

If nothing else, there are mentions in there that will give ideas on where to look for more info than what you and me are privy to.

Russia–NATO relations - Wikipedia
 
Icono said:
Agreed that Russia is certainly no victim, but you leave a LOT out. Russia is bad because the US says it is? Riiiiiight.

Get past the first section in this sock puppet wikipedia entry, and see how your knowledge holds up.

If nothing else, there are mentions in there that will give ideas on where to look for more info than what you and me are privy to.

Russia–NATO relations - Wikipedia
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No, Russia is bad because most of the world agrees they are aggressors who don't respect sovereign nation's borders- hence why NATO still exists. There is a reason why NATO has added countries even after the cold war.

I even just gave you specific examples and some of those incidents are listed in the article you posted.
 
Sandy Johnson said:
No, Russia is bad because most of the world agrees they are aggressors who don't respect sovereign nation's borders- hence why NATO still exists. There is a reason why NATO has added countries even after the cold war.

I even just gave you specific examples and some of those incidents are listed in the article you posted.
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Minor point

The Chinese and Indians have no quarrel with the Russians. In fact China actively supports this because it continues to weaken America’s standing in the world. By no means does the US and it’s EuroTrash puppets make up “most of the world”

But continue to suck to propaganda you are guzzling.

FFS some of you could take a lesson or two in military strategy. Even Jane’s predicted the Kiev movement was a feint and forced Ukraine to withdraw troops along the eastern frontier to rush to the capital allowing the Russians almost free reign to establish the positions and lines they currently hold.

It has been a static war of attrition since. The Ukrainian forces have made zero gains and are actually losing territory whereas those pesky Ruskies really have no ambition currently to expand west. History likely will judge this campaign more favorably than the US’s failures since WW2. Damn I keep forgetting how we dominated Grenada.
 
XtremeJ said:
By no means does the US and it’s EuroTrash puppets make up “most of the world”

But continue to suck to propaganda you are guzzling.
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Fair point. I revise my statement to "most of Europe." China and Russia have been buddies since the USSR because communism.

BRICS wants to see the US's standing in the world weakend and the dollar go away as the default trading currency of the world.
 
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