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Project Siclone

I sort of do and I love it.
My son and I have been fucking around with horn loaded woofers recently, a lot of fun and people NEVER believe him that it's ONE $50 Skar 10 making all that noise.
 
I guess I need to find you on FB to follow the drama....

It wont work :flipoff2::flipoff2:

Batdog Garage on Facebook.

The drama typically comes from the guys that don't understand what they're seeing or have enough knowledge to act like others are idiots. They're usually found in the the basshead groups or something like that. The guys that know me and visit the BDG page see me doing things that most wouldn't try and know that if I'm planning it and putting time into it, it's going to work.
 
Batdog Garage on Facebook.

The drama typically comes from the guys that don't understand what they're seeing or have enough knowledge to act like others are idiots. They're usually found in the the basshead groups or something like that. The guys that know me and visit the BDG page see me doing things that most wouldn't try and know that if I'm planning it and putting time into it, it's going to work.
I believe in you. I have not had a big stereo in a long time.... I have an amp sitting on the shelf I was supposed to install a year plus ago.... My current truck isn't loud enough

I don't FB much, but I will follow along there
 
I win first naysayer :flipoff2::laughing:

behind the scenes pics from SI is awesome. If I ever get something worthy of spending some $$ on sound inside, you've probably pushed me to give those guys a little $$.


i didn't know you tuned the GODDAM MAGNET on speakers and shit. Those things are magic. so I guess that makes you guys Wizards?
 
Parallel 6th means there are two ported chambers with the sub mounted on a baffle between them. The two ported chambers don't interact with one another, but work together to create the passband. One is tuned high, one is tuned low. Those two frequencies determine the passband. In this case the high side is at 83Hz and the low side is 17 1/2Hz. That's the enclosure in the first picture.

A series 6th has two ported chambers, but one chamber plays into the other and there is one port for air to move in/out of the enclosure. Since they work together, changing tuning on one also changes tuning on the other.

The parallel 6th has more efficiency over the sealed enclosure I had in the thing.

An IB "enclosure" isn't an enclosure at all. You're just separating the front wave created by the driver from the back wave. In this instance the front wave will be horn-loaded off the wall I'm going to use to separate the front wave from the back wave. I'll be able to do normal SQ listening with it like always, but I'll open the hatch for SPL type stuff. For the sake of the hatch. :homer:
How flat is the response across that passband?
How fast does it fall off outside the passband?
How much does the impedance of the woofer vary within the passband?

Inquiring PA guys have questions.
 
I understand the enclosure and I'm all about seeing it work.

Tuning the magnet...yea I dont understand :homer:
 
I win first naysayer :flipoff2::laughing:

behind the scenes pics from SI is awesome. If I ever get something worthy of spending some $$ on sound inside, you've probably pushed me to give those guys a little $$.


i didn't know you tuned the GODDAM MAGNET on speakers and shit. Those things are magic. so I guess that makes you guys Wizards?

Yup, small company. Two guys building subs (aside from the Chinese-built SQLs and HT18s) and James was building crates for the 24s.

Nick does all of the designing of component speakers and subs. Since it's such a small company when someone disparages the company or products, he takes it personally because he gives a shit about what he's producing.

I had no idea you could change the QTS on a speaker. Cool!

Me either :homer:

And I worked in a high end home audio manuf. Guess they were to cheap or that shit didn't exist 30 years ago.


As far as "tuning the magnet"/changing Qts...

Any subwoofer is going to want a volume of air behind it. A sub is an electromechanical device and needs an air spring to help control it. That air spring comes from the enclosure.

A sub with a Qts of .4 will want/need less of a volume of air behind it than a sub with a Qts of .7 which which needs no enclosure. Just mount that fucker on a baffle to separate front wave from back wave and send it. You can also do this with a sub with a Qts of .4, but I'd reduce applied power. The SQLs I do trunk baffles with have a Qts of .43. Since there's nothing to control them, you have to regulate the applied power so you don't over-drive them. They sound killer.

If you take a sub with a Q of .7 and put it in an enclosure your system Q will be above .7 - over-damped. A lot of cheap, "get loud" subs have a high Qts, need large(ish) enclosures, and don't like to be tuned low. Most shops that sell these send them out in prefab enclosures that are tuned in the 35-40Hz range. Which is great, because those subs typically don't want to play low.

When we design enclosures we'll typically shoot for an enclosure that will put the Q of the sub/enclosure system at .7 for an "ideal" alignment. Ideal meaning the most musical sub/enclosure.

Now...this is where I'll make sense in my head, not type it clearly, and confuse/lose people.

I'll try not to be confusing...

The mechanical Q (Qms) and electrical Q (Qes) give you the total Q of the subwoofer, or Qts.

Qts is calculated by multiplying Qes by Qms, then dividing that result by the sum. Qts = Qes x Qms / Qes + Qms

Mechanical Q (Qms) comes from the mechanical bits that control cone travel. The spider pack and surround. You can change Qms by changing the spider pack and surround material. That means different materials or more layers in the spider pack or different materials for the surround, or a change in the thickness of the surround material. A durometer change of a rubber surround can change Qms at the same material thickness.

Electrical Q (Qes) comes from the magnet and coil.

To change Qes with the sub you can change its motor force (Bl). Bl is actually the relationship between the gauss/magnetic strength of the magnet and the coil/inductor. The L in Bl represents the inductor. It's a lower case L, not a capital I.

You can also change Qes by changing the coil. A sub that's using a 4-layer flat-wound aluminum coil will have a lower Bl than the SAME SUB that's using an 8-layer bi-filar copper coil.

So...to change the total Q of the subwoofer (Qts) either the Qms or Qes has to change. The things that change Qms and Qes also change a slew of other things. I'm not getting into them and adding to the confusion, but that 8-layer bi-filar copper coil is heavier than a 4-layer flat-wound aluminum coil. So that means an increase in moving mass (mms). Then there's what happens with an increase in mms and the mechanical suspension (Qms) and how that heavier coil lowers Fs...:homer:

Now, back on topic...

So when a HS-24 leaves the the shop the magnet is fully charged. Basically zapped on the magnetizer to the point that the gauss strength of the magnet doesn't increase with additional hits on the magnetizer.

So the HS-24s are sent out to customers with a motor/coil/spider/surround combo that gives the sub a Qts of .4.

With a sub thats already built with a fully magged/charged magnet, the ONLY way to change Qts is to reduce motor force (Bl) by de-gaussing the magnet slightly on the magnetizer. This is done by flipping the polarity on the magnetizer leads, setting voltage, and zapping the motor.

Since a speaker is an electromechanical device, and changing the gauss strength of the magnet changes Bl, the force applied to the moving components with a given amount of input energy will also change with that change in Bl. A reduction in gauss strength means a reduction in Bl. Makes sense. Less magnetic energy, less electromagnetic force.

When we reduce Bl, with the same mechanical suspension components (spider pack and surround) the ratio between those components and motor force changes. When going from Qts of .4 to .7 the mechanical suspension (Qms) increases in strength relative to Qes.

How flat is the response across that passband?
How fast does it fall off outside the passband?
How much does the impedance of the woofer vary within the passband?

Inquiring PA guys have questions.

Below is where I modeled this SQL-15 in the current sealed enclosure vs the parallel 6th. Horizontal lines are 5dB.

There's a peak at 60Hz, but that's because of my decision to push high-side tuning to 83Hz. While the peak is on screen there, it's a non-issue since I'm running a 70Hz LR4 low-pass in the processor.

So the below image is the modeled anechoic response with it tuned to 19Hz on the low side and 83Hz on the high side compared to the same sub in the sealed enclosure I had been using.

Since the parallel 6th is two ported chambers, they both have a rolloff of 12dB per octave. That means without an electrical crossover both the high at low sides would roll off at 12dB per octave as shown on screen.

In the xB I'm only running a low pass filter on the sub in the processor. So the low tuned side of the enclosure (19Hz) has a rolloff of 12dB per octave below 19Hz and, since the low-pass crossover in the processor is a 4th order Linkwitz-Riley at 70Hz, the roll-off on the top end of the passband is 24dB per octave due to the crossover set in the processor.

So now you're probably wondering why the fuck I tuned the high side to 83Hz instead of 70Hz. :laughing:

In modeling I found that the higher I tuned the high side, the more output I gained across the entire passband. The enclosure became more efficient across the entire passband. So I tuned higher to get the overall acoustic gain in efficiency and set an electrical crossover where I wanted it.

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The trick is that that graph only shows anechoic response. You know that the response changes if you move the enclosure from one room to another or even change placement in a room due to transfer function and room modes.

Maybe tomorrow (later today, fuck...) I'll heave that fucker back in the xB and take in-car RTA measurements and do some SPL tests before I take it out for good.

Here's impedance (blue) measured with DATS. Impedance peaks at 13.46, 28.2, and 75.3. Not sure what's with the weird dip at 19Hz.

Would be interesting to see what the measurement looks like on Smith & Larsen vs DATS.
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Now you'll probably know the following already, but I'm going to type it out for others that are wondering...

Just as in a room, you have sounds that are reflected and reverberant. This is due to the wavelength of the frequencies.

The frequency at which sounds in the car (or room) go from reflective to reverberant is called the Schroeder Frequency. The Schroeder Frequency is the point at which the sound waves are longer than the length of the listening environment (your vehicle's interior cabin).

When those sound waves reverberate, the pressure waves build up in the car and you get what's called "cabin gain".

This cabin gain is usually 12dB per octave below the Schroeder frequency.

If you jump back up to the graph on the computer screen you can see I've got a 12dB per octave rolloff down low at a little over 23Hz.

BUT I have a 12dB per octave boost starting higher thanks to cabin gain. :homer:

To calculate wavelength you divide the speed of sound by frequency. Just raw numbers. Don't let units confuse you.

1,127 ft/sec / 40Hz = 28.175 ft

1127 / 40 = 28.175

Another:

1127ft/sec / 70Hz = 16.1ft

1127 / 70 = 16.1


Later I'll post about the whole horn-loaded thing if someone reminds me and wants to know WTF I'm planning there and how it works. :homer:
 
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So in a nutshell you either need to tighten the suspension or make the motor weaker on the driver so the cone doesn't go craycray in a low hertz tuned enclosure with big power.

More magnetic = more potential cone movement at any given power.

Less magnetic = less potential cone movement at any given power.
 
So in a nutshell you either need to tighten the suspension or make the motor weaker on the driver so the cone doesn't go craycray in a low hertz tuned enclosure with big power.

More magnetic = more potential cone movement at any given power.

Less magnetic = less potential cone movement at any given power.

This isn't about a low Hz tuned enclosure. I'm not using an enclosure here. De-gaussing to get to .7 is what allows me to run these with no enclosure.

Any ported enclosure, no matter the tuning frequency, will unload below tuning and excursion will shoot up.

Your magnetic comments are accurate.
 
Here's impedance (blue) measured with DATS. Impedance peaks at 13.46, 28.2, and 75.3. Not sure what's with the weird dip at 19Hz.

Well 75.3/2/2=18.825 (pretty damn close to 19, it looks to me like it's a harmonic showing up as an impedance variance. ??

Interesting about the efficiency going up by tuning for 83hz.

About Schroeder freqs, the big trend in control rooms has been for some time to use bass traps, (pioneered by SIA acoustics), so that the control room won't load up with bass freqs and loose intelligibility in both the bass and upper regions. The same designer used bass traps in The Pearl Theater and Pearl studio control room, and I never ever heard an act overload the room like happens so many times these days with super powerful subs in stadiums that are designed to be loud and reverberant. Even when we had Jay-Z in and there were 70 or so inputs to the console, a majority of which were either track or Pro-Tools with super-hyped bass. We had 3 D&B 2x18 subs per side, and they augmented another 6, PLUS 20 2x15 JBL subs in the line array. I actually had a couple engineers complain they couldn't "pressurize" the room like they wanted, um, yeah that's by design, it was still loud enough but highly detailed unlike a highly reverberant space. I know none of this is really applicable to you, (although the Audi IB is kinda).

I know you prefer LR x-overs, have you tried Butterworth, Bessel or others?

Have you messed with REQ any more?
 
About Schroeder freqs, the big trend in control rooms has been for some time to use bass traps, (pioneered by SIA acoustics), so that the control room won't load up with bass freqs and loose intelligibility in both the bass and upper regions. The same designer used bass traps in The Pearl Theater and Pearl studio control room, and I never ever heard an act overload the room like happens so many times these days with super powerful subs in stadiums that are designed to be loud and reverberant. Even when we had Jay-Z in and there were 70 or so inputs to the console, a majority of which were either track or Pro-Tools with super-hyped bass. We had 3 D&B 2x18 subs per side, and they augmented another 6, PLUS 20 2x15 JBL subs in the line array. I actually had a couple engineers complain they couldn't "pressurize" the room like they wanted, um, yeah that's by design, it was still loud enough but highly detailed unlike a highly reverberant space. I know none of this is really applicable to you, (although the Audi IB is kinda).

I know you prefer LR x-overs, have you tried Butterworth, Bessel or others?

Have you messed with REQ any more?

Don't you guys go for a flatter overall response? I know you have to deal with accounting for people and how sound changes once they're in the venue with sound skipping over them.

LR4s sum flat through the crossover so it's one less thing to sort out in the tuning process.
 
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Don't you guys for for a flatter overall response? I know you have to deal with accounting for people and how sound changes once they're in the venue with sound skipping over them.

LR4s sum flat through the crossover so it's one less thing to sort out in the tuning process.
A properly designed room will try to account for that, but the blood bags do several things;

1. They are absorptive, vs. an empty hard floor room.
2. They usually increase the temperature of the room.
3 Both of those effects will change via the season.
 
I'm taking this in...
I have been attempting to "properly" tune a horn loaded "pro-sound" Bluetooth speaker I built and it's amazing how much the room fucks with the results.
 
A properly designed room will try to account for that, but the blood bags do several things;

1. They are absorptive, vs. an empty hard floor room.
2. They usually increase the temperature of the room.
3 Both of those effects will change via the season.

Blood bags. :laughing:


I originally typed meat bags but changed it to people.


It's wild, some of the shit you guys deal with. Indoor and outdoor
 
I'm taking this in...
I have been attempting to "properly" tune a horn loaded "pro-sound" Bluetooth speaker I built and it's amazing how much the room fucks with the results.

Oh, make no mistake. I'm not designing a horn. Not tuning one.:laughing:


It's simply horn-loaded. I'm going to get a natural amplification of sound due to the way the sub will load off the wall.

Truth be told I MAY play with placement and angle of the "horn wall" to see if it changes output, but reality is this is a temporary setup (will likely be in until November/December) to see what I can get out of two of them and still compete in SQ.

The goal is to get these subs in the thing and win overall best vehicle in the country for combined SQ and SPL. :homer:

...and state titles in SQ and SPL. Those should come easy.

There's a 4x points event in Bowling Green, KY at the Corvette Museum the 18th of next month. I hope to have it there.

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Welp…bought some MDF. :homer:

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In a few minutes I’m going to pull this thing in, put it on jack stands, and gut the interior. All of the amps and air ride will be coming out. Air ride will go under the car.

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Having a cold beverage with the dogs right now, though.

Oh, there’s a show in Greenville, NC the 11th of next month.

Going hit that one.

Giving myself a week to spend on this thing.
 
Got it in the 2-car bay and put it on jack stands. Pulled the amps and processors and all of the air ride shit that was in the cargo area.
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I forgot about rust inside the floor pan from the previous owner. None on the bottom side. Beach shit and saltwater. Will have to address that first thing tomorrow.
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Just caught your youtube vid, hang in there brother. I just lost my mom 2 weeks ago, my dad passed 27 years ago. It doesn't get easier, but it will get to the point it doesn't hurt everyday. Remember the good times.
Vaya Con Dios
Yikes!!!!
And I was just gonna say, his back must be feeling better….. seems to be getting after it!!!
Rest In Peace Mom.
 
Just caught your youtube vid, hang in there brother. I just lost my mom 2 weeks ago, my dad passed 27 years ago. It doesn't get easier, but it will get to the point it doesn't hurt everyday. Remember the good times.
Vaya Con Dios

I remember telling my brother that I wouldn’t shed a tear when he passed, that it’d be closure.

Yeah, I was wrong.

If any of you have relatives that you’re not speaking to, at least reach out to them and at least try to make things better. I gave dad multiple chances and he made efforts. We talked in June or so and he got upset and started cussing me because I asked a question. I hung up and blocked him for months.

I called and talked to him for 20 minutes a week before he passed.

So now I’ve got his truck and Ranger and other constant reminders and can’t help but think that I should’ve called more.

Even though we did t have the best relationship, he would ALWAYS answer when I called. He was the only family member to do so.

I’ve lost that.

Yikes!!!!
And I was just gonna say, his back must be feeling better….. seems to be getting after it!!!
Rest In Peace Mom.

Make no mistake, my lower back is still fucked. :laughing: It makes me painfully aware at random times.

Today’s challenge is leaning into the cargo area and running a cup brush on the grinder to knock off surface rust on the floor pan.

Taking lots of breaks so I don’t get dizzy/sick leaning over too long. Taking one now.
Oh shit, here we go!

Yup. This is only the next step in stupidity for it.

Can’t remember if I posted this here or not. Blue is cabin, red vents to exterior with hatch open.
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Might have to ride over and check out that event in BG next month. I've never been to anything like that.
 
So are you still going for 8 of these things in there or sticking with 2 or 4?

Two for now. This will be what I compete with for the year. Nick still needs to build the eight 24s that will go in here. We’re waiting on parts to come in and I don’t have the time this year to put into a build for eight right now - especially the way I want to do it. So two will do.

This also allows me to get these two big fuckers off the garage floor. :laughing:

Might have to ride over and check out that event in BG next month. I've never been to anything like that.

It’s a show that will have both SPL and SQ vehicles, so you’ll get to see a wide variety of craziness.
 
Two for now. This will be what I compete with for the year. Nick still needs to build the right 24s that will go in here. We’re waiting on parts to come in and I do t have the time this year to put into a build for eight right now - especially the way I want to do it.



It’s a show that will have both SPL and Sq vehicles, so you’ll get to see a wide variety of craziness.
Should I bring shooters muffs with? I'm guessing yes on the SPL. Also, when you guys say horns, (I know nothing about audio) are you talking about the "horn" style like my Klipsch's have in them? The horns in my Klipsch 5's are as big as the driver almost.
 
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