KoH 2021 Chit Chat

[Sandy Johnson]

Tony did not race, what you saw was a customer that was inspired watching Tony race last year, then called up Gen Rite and said “build me one.”

Which is nuts because I feel like he could have bought a used 4400 for the cost of building that thing and been way more competitive.

 

[crazybluerider]

Which is nuts because I feel like he could have bought a used 4400 for the cost of building that thing and been way more competitive.

I mean he did finish 1 space in front of the team that did that, so...

 

[ridered3]

So the golf cart course was too easy and they need to do something with the EMC to get the finishing numbers higher for the 4600s. I bet most of those timed out due to traffic jams rather than breakage.

Correct on Golf Carts. They needed a 3rd lap (even if it was the same as lap 2) for sure.

Based on the trackers and some chat, that is correct on the 4600 racers. Heard several comments about them being stuck in Outer Limits behind a 4500 and 4800 broken and blocking the trail.

 

[ridered3]

Which is nuts because I feel like he could have bought a used 4400 for the cost of building that thing and been way more competitive.

Purely my guess, but the guy probably wanted to build up his Jeep to say he competed in the 4400 class as opposed to buying a 4400 and trying to be competitive in the 4400 class.

 

[Roc Doc]

Which is nuts because I feel like he could have bought a used 4400 for the cost of building that thing and been way more competitive.

I would say that it was done as a promotion for Gen Rite products. Looky, we ran a mostly stock LJ in 4400, that's how tough our bumpers are.

 

[Tech Tim]

I have always heard that using portal geared hubs takes the torque load off of the R&P. Witness the 8.75" 28sp AMC Model 20 R&P used in the 8000lb Hummer H1. I wheeled a lot with some of those guys in Moab and at Logandale and never saw a R&P let loose...axle shaft yes but not R&P. Got a more Tech Tim explanation as to why it sees the same load?

You are correct a diff with a geared hub will see less load. As long as we are talking apples to apples (or geared hub LA to geared hub IFS), my answer stands. If we are comparing a portal'd car against a non-portal car, things would be different.


I understood the question to be: If there was a difference between a Live Axle and IFS on a front dig. In general, there wouldn't be. In depth, there would be some as the live axle reacts and loads the tires different than an IFS.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

I would say that it was done as a promotion for Gen Rite products. Looky, we ran a mostly stock LJ in 4400, that's how tough our bumpers are.

Tony already did that in the Terremoto. This is them reaping the benefits of their advertising.

 

[JohnnyJ]

After all the mentions of lite bright racing and what a PITA they were on the chat I looked them up on youtube. 93.238% of the thumbnails were of a chick in a swimsuit. So is it just another instamodel trying to find a new niche?

I figured a quick browse of the thumbnails was enough for me. I couldn't watch an episode, I was afraid it might make me more brain dead.

 

[Donk]

Correct on Golf Carts. They needed a 3rd lap (even if it was the same as lap 2) for sure.

Based on the trackers and some chat, that is correct on the 4600 racers. Heard several comments about them being stuck in Outer Limits behind a 4500 and 4800 broken and blocking the trail.

That seriously sucks for the 4600 guys. 7% chance of finishing due to no fault of your own would certainly make me reconsider entering, especially when something like the SXS class is probably easily obtainable for similar entry cost.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

Purely my guess, but the guy probably wanted to build up his Jeep to say he competed in the 4400 class as opposed to buying a 4400 and trying to be competitive in the 4400 class.

People in tax brackets way above mine do some weird shit

 

[Sandy Johnson]

That seriously sucks for the 4600 guys. 7% chance of finishing due to no fault of your own would certainly make me reconsider entering, especially when something like the SXS class is probably easily obtainable for similar entry cost.

Bet you can pull more sponsors with your fresh off the showroom floor can-am than a clapped out ZJ. Every company wants a piece of the sxs action these days.

 

[ridered3]

After all the mentions of lite bright racing and what a PITA they were on the chat I looked them up on youtube. 93.238% of the thumbnails were of a chick in a swimsuit. So is it just another instamodel trying to find a new niche?

I figured a quick browse of the thumbnails was enough for me. I couldn't watch an episode, I was afraid it might make me more brain dead.

The thumbnails are clickbait for sure. She's a drift driver (competes in a couple of small-ish series and the Netflix show Hyperdrive) and he seems to have a bulldozer mentality while driving anything, so was a bit surprised to see them finish without any major breakages.

I've watched all their videos on the Ultra4 Bomber and it's not bad and gives a pretty good glimpse of what happens when you buy a well sued 4400 Bomber for $50k and then attempt to race prep it (after breaking several things on their own before teardown).

 

[ridered3]

That seriously sucks for the 4600 guys. 7% chance of finishing due to no fault of your own would certainly make me reconsider entering, especially when something like the SXS class is probably easily obtainable for similar entry cost.

Stock class is my favorite class to watch since they all have a couple of screws loose to want to compete in Hammers in a Stock-ish vehicle on 35's, so I hope people stay in the class as opposed to switching to another class.

That said, I feel like Ultra4 needs to do something for the 4600 class to make it easier/more likely to have a couple of people finish a race as to everyone breaking or timing out. I believe there were 6-8 Stock class cars in the Outer Limits parking lot.

 

[Roc Doc]

I understood the question to be: If there was a difference between a Live Axle and IFS on a front dig. In general, there wouldn't be. In depth, there would be some as the live axle reacts and loads the tires different than an IFS.

I'll buy that for a dollar.

Oh, and on the terminology thing, I actually heard Ian say Anti-roll bar which of course is correct, but thinking about it a little, wouldn't Anti-roll spring be more correct? Or Anti-roll torsion bar? I mean, 'bar' is not describing what it does.

 

[Roc Doc]

) and he seems to have a bulldozer mentality while driving anything, so was a bit surprised to see them finish without any major breakages.

I've watched all their videos on the Ultra4 Bomber and it's not bad and gives a pretty good glimpse of what happens when you buy a well sued 4400 Bomber for $50k and then attempt to race prep it (after breaking several things on their own before teardown).

At least twice I saw him drive his front axle-housing right into a rock, instead of putting a tire on it like we all learned in our first month of wheeling. Those two are just like that guy that has the sail boat with the two hotties on board, and they cruise around the Caribbean. Sometimes he installs a GPS unit or such, but most of the time it's chicks in bikinis...which is all fine and well for some, but a complete waste of time for me.

I'm jealous of those that have enough money to buy a car, just like I'm jealous of these guys that can build a podium car, but it doesn't mean I don't enjoy the sport.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

At least twice I saw him drive his front axle-housing right into a rock, instead of putting a tire on it like we all learned in our first month of wheeling. Those two are just like that guy that has the sail boat with the two hotties on board, and they cruise around the Caribbean. Sometimes he installs a GPS unit or such, but most of the time it's chicks in bikinis...which is all fine and well for some, but a complete waste of time for me.

I'm jealous of those that have enough money to buy a car, just like I'm jealous of these guys that can build a podium car, but it doesn't mean I don't enjoy the sport.

She doesn't get as bikini clad as often as one would expect. I mean, it happens, but it's not the theme of what they do. I started watching them a while back as I was trying to find some non-overlanding 4x4 content on youtube and suddenly here were these two people with a brand new JL on 37s beating the living shit out of it on some actually hard trails. My wife was walking by the TV and saw them, started to talk shit about whatever mid drift showing shirt she had, and then ended up sitting down to watch because she was actually doing a decent job of spotting.(It seems to me she got worse at that later on, or maybe they just don't care how they smash their way through the trail anymore). I think what annoys me the most while watching them is the constant and repetitive sponsor plugging. Half of their videos now are fawning all over some new product they're getting installed for free, but I get it, they gotta pay the bills somehow.

 

[Treefrog]

Derp

I swore I read in the ifs thread that no one was really at or over 20" but I'm probably just remembering wrong

I think only the portal cars have more than 20. The CV angles especially in droop limit the non portal cars.

 

[Donk]

Stock class is my favorite class to watch since they all have a couple of screws loose to want to compete in Hammers in a Stock-ish vehicle on 35's, so I hope people stay in the class as opposed to switching to another class.

That said, I feel like Ultra4 needs to do something for the 4600 class to make it easier/more likely to have a couple of people finish a race as to everyone breaking or timing out. I believe there were 6-8 Stock class cars in the Outer Limits parking lot.

IMO breakages come with the territory, the drivers should know overdriving will be punished by the terrain, hell Amber destroyed a leaf pack on the first jump so I don't see difficulty as an issue per se it's just part of what makes KoH mythical.

Their biggest problem is that they need more alternative lines or some sort of set piece recovery for when someone becomes a trail tampon to stop people timing out.

 

[ridered3]

IMO breakages come with the territory, the drivers should know overdriving will be punished by the terrain, hell Amber destroyed a leaf pack on the first jump so I don't see difficulty as an issue per se it's just part of what makes KoH mythical.

Their biggest problem is that they need more alternative lines or some sort of set piece recovery for when someone becomes a trail tampon to stop people timing out.

Agreed all around there.

 

[Tech Tim]

I'll buy that for a dollar.

Oh, and on the terminology thing, I actually heard Ian say Anti-roll bar which of course is correct, but thinking about it a little, wouldn't Anti-roll spring be more correct? Or Anti-roll torsion bar? I mean, 'bar' is not describing what it does.

Anti-roll torsion bar? So should we call a coil spring a coiled-torsion-bar? Because that's what a coil spring is....


IDKIC, It's just one of those little things that annoy me.


This is a solid axle:

This is a live axle:

This is a straight axle:

All are beam axles. However, if it has drive components, then it is a live axle.

A live axle is a type of beam axle in which the shaft (or, commonly, shafts connected to move as a single unit) also transmits power to the wheels; a beam axle that does not also transmit power is sometimes called a dead axle.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

Their biggest problem is that they need more alternative lines or some sort of set piece recovery for when someone becomes a trail tampon to stop people timing out

As a someone who as done recovery on sledge, wrecking ball, and spooners in the past I agree, but it would be super tricky to pull that off. I just wrote a wall of text about all the logistics involved with getting a trail tampon free and figured I wouldn't barf that on the thread for everyone to read. From a racing standpoint though, it's hard to make it fair if you're helping teams get through sections that others needed no help to do. My thought would be if raceops makes the call to unplug someone, that's it, they're done. Once you're out you have to head for hammertown via something other than the race course.

Often times ops lets it happen though because these guys paid the money to race and most are out there to be able to say they finished, so they're gonna want to work til the course closes to be able to say they made it out.

We had one year on sledge where half the field of 4400 cars all got hung up together in the canyon. There were a few broken rigs blocking passing lines and dudes getting hung up on the main line. They were kinda sorta making forward progress, but it was pretty much a parking lot. JT finally came out to see for himself what was going on, watched for a while an finally told us to just get everyone moving. It took a lot to get them to make that call.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

All are beam axles.

Volkswagen guys with pitchforks are enroute to your house now.

 

[Roc Doc]

Anti-roll torsion bar? So should we call a coil spring a coiled-torsion-bar? Because that's what a coil spring is....


IDKIC, It's just one of those little things that annoy me.

"The Incredibility Pedantic Book of Automotive Terms"

By Doc & Tim

Think it's a winner?

 

[Roc Doc]

As a someone who as done recovery on sledge, wrecking ball, and spooners in the past I agree, but it would be super tricky to pull that off. I just wrote a wall of text about all the logistics involved with getting a trail tampon free and figured I wouldn't barf that on the thread for everyone to read. From a racing standpoint though, it's hard to make it fair if you're helping teams get through sections that others needed no help to do. My thought would be if raceops makes the call to unplug someone, that's it, they're done. Once you're out you have to head for hammertown via something other than the race course.

Often times ops lets it happen though because these guys paid the money to race and most are out there to be able to say they finished, so they're gonna want to work til the course closes to be able to say they made it out.

We had one year on sledge where half the field of 4400 cars all got hung up together in the canyon. There were a few broken rigs blocking passing lines and dudes getting hung up on the main line. They were kinda sorta making forward progress, but it was pretty much a parking lot. JT finally came out to see for himself what was going on, watched for a while an finally told us to just get everyone moving. It took a lot to get them to make that call.

Yeah, that's the balancing act. Jason did two rock trails with two flat tires to stay in the lead...till he ran out of fuel. Cameron was close enough to home to risk it with 3wd, he might have made it but for a different line, but we'll never know.

 

[posford]

As a someone who as done recovery on sledge, wrecking ball, and spooners in the past I agree, but it would be super tricky to pull that off. I just wrote a wall of text about all the logistics involved with getting a trail tampon free and figured I wouldn't barf that on the thread for everyone to read. From a racing standpoint though, it's hard to make it fair if you're helping teams get through sections that others needed no help to do. My thought would be if raceops makes the call to unplug someone, that's it, they're done. Once you're out you have to head for hammertown via something other than the race course.

Huge time penalty for taking the winch cable? After X amount of time or X amount of vehicles behind you, no choice, take the cable and the penalty?

I get the " these guys paid the money to race and most are out there to be able to say they finished" mentality, but if I got all there way there just to have a cookout on BD because some tampon wants to hump a rock all day and not move on, I'd be pissed

 

[Sandy Johnson]

Huge time penalty for taking the winch cable? After X amount of time or X amount of vehicles behind you, no choice, take the cable and the penalty?

I get the " these guys paid the money to race and most are out there to be able to say they finished" mentality, but if I got all there way there just to have a cookout on BD because some tampon wants to hump a rock all day and not move on, I'd be pissed

Most of the serious trail tampons are something broke and they're trying to figure out how to keep going without a spare part, or they rolled or some jazz. If it happens in front of a recovery crew, we will make sure they get off to the side of the trail or yank them out/roll them over when we can. If traffic isn't bad, we might even try to help them get back out of whatever trail they are on.

I would hate to do the time penalty thing. We already keep track of every race number that passes and what time they passed us because at the end of the day when someone's tracker is down, no one has seen them in a while, and they can't be reached on the radio, ops will start asking everyone if we have seen XXXX number today and when. Writing down every car we had to yank out of the way would suck. Especially because a lot happen in the heat of the moment.

Most times though, the issue isn't right in front of a recovery crew. It's way out somewhere that no one really thought people would have an issue. Racecar drivers always find a way though

 

[Provience]

Anti-roll torsion bar? So should we call a coil spring a coiled-torsion-bar? Because that's what a coil spring is....


IDKIC, It's just one of those little things that annoy me.


This is a solid axle:






This is a live axle:




This is a straight axle:





All are beam axles. However, if it has drive components, then it is a live axle.

alright, i'm going to focus in on the live vs dead.

live axle is an axle with power, so IFS is still a live axle in a 4wd car

live beam axle, live straight axle, whatever. because we assume they are all 4wd, calling it live vs dead makes no difference

 

[Sandy Johnson]

alright, i'm going to focus in on the live vs dead.

live axle is an axle with power, so IFS is still a live axle in a 4wd car

live beam axle, live straight axle, whatever. because we assume they are all 4wd, calling it live vs dead makes no difference

You can tell all the good racing and content is done when we're arguing about the specific labels in a straight axle vs IFS debate.

 

[Provience]

You can tell all the good racing and content is done when we're arguing about the specific labels in a straight axle vs IFS.

the hot rod is a dead beam axle, because it is an I BEAM shape, the Toyota is a straight axle because it is a live straight axle because it is a straight shot tube, not beam, connecting the hubs. then you enter into drop portal axles that JHF sells, vs hub portal straight axles that the mega/monster trucks used.

nobody would ever call a tube a beam, because it is a tube. that's just silly IFS is a live dual a-arm axle or a live strut independent axle if it only has on a arm. but it isn't straight or beam because there is no housing for the axle

 

[Roc Doc]

the hot rod is a dead beam axle, because it is an I BEAM shape, the Toyota is a straight axle because it is a live straight axle because it is a straight shot tube, not beam, connecting the hubs. then you enter into drop portal axles that JHF sells, vs hub portal straight axles that the mega/monster trucks used.

nobody would ever call a tube a beam, because it is a tube. that's just silly IFS is a live dual a-arm axle or a live strut independent axle if it only has on a arm. but it isn't straight or beam because there is no housing for the axle

OK, you can write a chapter in our book.