4x4 EVC
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Hay SLOWPOKE693 , the pocket protector crowd would like to know:
Ask what kind of torque they have and what fuel they burn?
- Patrick
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Jeep CJ-7 full EV conversion
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Ask what kind of torque they have and what fuel they burn?
- Patrick
Treefrog
Book Wheeler
I do not know if the Hyper9's map is out there but here is the map from a YASA 750. They have since changed their website and i can no longer find the pdf I snipped it from.With an electric motor it is not really about the power band as much as it is the efficiency map. Low speed high torque is very low efficiency. High speed, moderate torque tends to be the happy zone. If I remember, I'll track down the hyper9 efficiency data later.
- Found them:
There's a lot of happy spots in this motor!
400 is not as scary as it sounds. But you may have to step away from the Tesla packs if you go that route, switching for a module with higher voltage but less amp hours.
- You're right, BUT, at a very steep price $$$. Battery technology is moving at warp speed, solid state batteries are knocking at the door of reality. My plan is to make my Kits as modular as possible so as to give future advances a way to plug in without starting over. Tesla packs are available, reliable and coming down in price so I'll stick with them till the next thing comes out.
- Oh, and 400 volts is scary as shit - wear gloves when dealing with any part of High Voltage.
- Patrick
The drop offs at low rpm and low torque is normal for all electric motors.
No reason not to stick with what is out there and working.
Don't get me wrong, you should always be on edge when working with HV. You just take it slow, pay attention, and have someone ready to pull your body off using a fiberglass broom
. I work on a couple of HV systems on a daily basis. It used to be a 400V normally, but the last 2 years or so has been predominantly 800V. Battery chemistry scares me more than voltage. Lithium is much spicier than lead acid.Regarding the kit, how much is it weld in vs bolt in? And what plans do you have regarding keeping the shade tree hack job swapping his rust bucket from frying himself?
Treefrog
Book Wheeler
Typically RPM is limited by the motor controller. Really not a big issue. The motor he is using is limited to about 7000.
TRINDU
PBB Orphan
So you have little to no experience I motorpsorts? Whether it be F1, NHRA, even local dirt track, or tractor pull?
Don't wiki me about the OG13, or an event that I have been to... and you've never attended.
I have experience driving just about every <$100k EV out there. They have their place in today's society. Look at Tesla sales vs whatever shit GM, Toyota, etc try to kick out. Taking one of the mass produced models, making it an EV, has been a proven record for a [sales] disaster. It's merely a proof of concept... looking at you Ford 'lightning'. Meanwhile, Tesla is still cranking them out because they incorporated a change in driver input, to the motoring experience. Creating a different level of interaction.
On that tesla note, they have fixed gearing? Why can't you? How's it drive I you just throw in in 4th and let it eat.
I'm not 'pooping' on the sacred EV. I'm sure there's 12, maybe a bakers dozen, circle jerking about a CJ-EV for a tidy $50k all in... I would want actual EV tech incorporated. Not a $40k engine and the rest AMC engineering.
Treefrog
Book Wheeler
We all know that for fast trail riding and racing batteries are a joke. And not even a good one. On road, batteries will not be able to out distance gas for decades if ever. And it is even worse for any continuous high power demand application. For your trophy truck example, the power needs grow faster than a battery pack's energy.
But let's not compare apples and bananas.
In a slow trail rig, range does not matter. The time on the trail does. In most trail situations, that time is only a day or two of putting along. Think of something like the Rubicon trail. It has already been documented that an older light 4x4 with an EV swap can run that trail on about 2/3's the amount of energy as his CJ has. The more your wheeling group waits to clear each obstacle, the better an EV compares.
Treefrog
Book Wheeler
Power, torque, and RPM demands. The offroad torque demands at stop and the RPM range for highway speeds results in a motor that has a lot of horsepower. There is a reason that a Ford Lighting has 450+ hp, a Rivian has 530+ hp, and the Cybertruxk has 600+ hp. Lower power means shifting. No different than an ICE.
4x4 EVC
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Trust me, I've got a very healthy respect for the volts, all of them.I do not know if the Hyper9's map is out there but here is the map from a YASA 750. They have since changed their website and i can no longer find the pdf I snipped it from.
The drop offs at low rpm and low torque is normal for all electric motors.
No reason not to stick with what is out there and working.
Don't get me wrong, you should always be on edge when working with HV. You just take it slow, pay attention, and have someone ready to pull your body off using a fiberglass broom
Regarding the kit, how much is it weld in vs bolt in? And what plans do you have regarding keeping the shade tree hack job swapping his rust bucket from frying himself?
Re: Weld in vs bolt in (modular) - not sure, maybe cheaper for the first one but much much cheaper once you have the exact parts for the next one.
Don't forget, you can't fix welded in, you're stuck with it. The thought never crossed my mind. But, don't let me stop you, weld away my friend!
4x4 EVC
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Correct, the inverter controls the motor.
Nope, my Hyper9HV tops out at 10,000 rpm. I lock it to about 6000 inside the controller via software.
4x4 EVC
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Hay, I get it, you don't like it - it's ok, I promise.So you have little to no experience I motorpsorts? Whether it be F1, NHRA, even local dirt track, or tractor pull?
Don't wiki me about the OG13, or an event that I have been to... and you've never attended.
I have experience driving just about every <$100k EV out there. They have their place in today's society. Look at Tesla sales vs whatever shit GM, Toyota, etc try to kick out. Taking one of the mass produced models, making it an EV, has been a proven record for a [sales] disaster. It's merely a proof of concept... looking at you Ford 'lightning'. Meanwhile, Tesla is still cranking them out because they incorporated a change in driver input, to the motoring experience. Creating a different level of interaction.
On that tesla note, they have fixed gearing? Why can't you? How's it drive I you just throw in in 4th and let it eat.
I'm not 'pooping' on the sacred EV. I'm sure there's 12, maybe a bakers dozen, circle jerking about a CJ-EV for a tidy $50k all in... I would want actual EV tech incorporated. Not a $40k engine and the rest AMC engineering.
Change sucks and this is just to much change for some. Other then the silly dick measuring attempt in your reply, I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate your honesty.
My business plan will obviously require me to be with and interact with Jeep owners of all stripes, so listening to your thoughts makes me smarter, teaches me what I have to pay attention to, how I need to understand and respect the dislike.
If you have any real thoughts or questions, please, I would love to answer.
- Patrick
4x4 EVC
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Yeah, that's mostly correct, yep. The shifting part is not exactly correct but who cares.
Man, I would love one of those R1S Rivians.
Let's call it 750ft lbs of torque and most likely some race fuel like VP Q16 or similar.
Sorry for the late response, I was out to dinner with the wife.
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If people like us who are into wheeling and trail riding of all kinds who have no problem dumping retarded amounts of money into vehicles to make them do things and go places they really shouldn't go think that your idea isn't viable, then who is your target market just those with more money than sense?
I bet over half the members of this board have 1 or more Jeeps in their possession that are mild trail/daily driver type rigs that your very kit would drop into. Nobody seems to beating the door down to get in here though.... Again, not trying to be a dick, just trying to give you an outside looking in perspective of what I see from my house.
4x4 EVC
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It's not that I think you're a dick, I mean, you are, clearly and intentionally being one, it's that you seem to think I'm somehow outside of your vin diagram.
I'm 60, my first vehicle at 15 was a bright Yellow 1969 Flat Head 4-cyl CJ-5a with a 3 speed that never once complained.
Since that time, I've NEVER been without at least one CJ or Wrangler or Grand Waggoneer to my name and in my garage. 11 CJ's and Wranglers and 3 Grand Waggoneers in total (god, I miss those).
I was ONLY talking about YOU, not the larger Irate group who you apparently speak for.
Again, if it was free to you, what bit of it would you choose to piss on first?
As for being a dick, I'm a grown ass man, I'm new to the campfire, I can take a couple pokes from the hot marshmallow stick, it's cool.
In the free scenario the range and recharge time is what I'd piss all over and battery technology is something you have no control over and what turns us ICE loving knuckle dragers off about EVs
I can carry a Jerry can of gas in an ICE vehicle and be on my way in a few minutes at most, what do I do with an EV I thought could make the trail and now I'm out of juice? Do I carry a generator AND fuel to be safe or will AAA bring me a charger?
I can carry a Jerry can of gas in an ICE vehicle and be on my way in a few minutes at most, what do I do with an EV I thought could make the trail and now I'm out of juice? Do I carry a generator AND fuel to be safe or will AAA bring me a charger?
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And yes, I'm the asshole that drives by the line of Teslas sitting on their chargers 1/2 way between Dallas and El Paso in my service truck that I just filled up in 5min shaking my head and laughing.
Swayzeexpress
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Can it be made so it's quiet like a golf cart? Looks fun but sounds like my fuel pump
4x4 EVC
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Laughing my ass off!
It actually does have that electric commuter train sound, it's true, it's true!
It's one of the things you have to adjust to, it sounds different, very quiet, a golf cart does come to mind! I found the lack of any engine noise harder to get used to then the new sound from the motor.
That and when you come to a stop, it's completely still, as if you drove your ICE rig to a stop light and turned it off and just sat there.
It's unnerving at first. I remember thinking over and over, with cars behind me at the stop light, 'what if it doesn't keep going, I'll have fugged everyone's day up...' - that never happened but sitting there, all still and off, it feels like that at first.
4x4 EVC
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Oh Man, good ones!
Range on road is about 110 miles, less so on highway then surface streets due to regen. The average person in the US drives less then 48 miles per day. Obviously, just like all things in life, this might not work for your needs. But, for most, that works. I can tell you honestly, I think it sucks but remember, the stock CJ/Wranglers only get about 180 - 210 miles with a 20 gal tank so, it's not like it's that big a difference for such a crappy MPG vehicle to begin with.
One thing you do that's different, you charge when you can, mostly at home if you can. So, you get in your EV Jeep, dive to get lunch or whatever, head home, plug in. Yes, you have to have a home JuiceBox or a portable one that plugs into your cloths dryer outlet. Many states have free charge port at home programs. Or, you charge overnight, but mostly, you get used to plugging in so you're always filled up.
Off road, full disclosure I have done very little with this Jeep yet, is very promising. Qualifiers: short trips, as in less then 2 miles, not bunny trails but just above bunny.
I'm using the Tesla Model S battery packs, that're rated at 23 volts and 5.3kWh each (x 7) for a total of 161 volts, 37.1kWh. Tesla has larger capacity packs that can add an additional 20 miles but the cost benefit ratio is a bit pear shaped at the moment.
AND I get that you think recharging on the trail would be awful. Here's the thing, why do you think you'd be stranded with no juice in your Jeep? Didn't you plan the trip when you got into it this morning? Can't you read a SOC (State of Charge) indicator? You've done enough off roading to gauge your SOC the way you can glance at your fuel gauge and know to about 5 miles how far you have left in the tank - right?
The point I'm trying to make is, there is no magic to it, you still have to be smart about how you plan your day - it's never good to run out of gas, I assume you plan your day accordingly. That wouldn't change, would it, you'd still turn on the key, look at the SOC, then at the range estimate on the screen that showed a high miles and a low miles range, and you'd know what you can get out of a full pack.
Right?
Yes, of course I'm right. You just didn't think about it because you haven't seen one and you're making assumptions that it's like calculus to know how far these things can fly. ALL TRUE, until you get used to it, just like any other Jeep you've ever owned.
My point is, if you're out of juice on the trail, then you fucked up. Same as if you ran out of gas.
BUT, and to your very specific point, 'what if you do run out of juice on the trail?'. Yep, you'd need to charge. So, if you have a gallon of gas and a little Honda genset, you'd plug it in and open a beer and wait about 20 min to get about 5 miles back in the 'tank' then off you go. If you're farther then that from the trail head or camp, you'd obviously have to charge longer. All true.
As for the last bit of that, the 'control' part - that's the fear talking. I get that probably more then any of it. Nothing can take that away till you try it, see it in the field, know more about how it works so that when something doesn't work, you don't feel and look stupid - I GET THAT!
Okay, once again, that was a great question, my goal is to reply with respect and appreciation of your deep Jeep experience - let me know if I haven't, I'll adjust as you might suggest.
MORE questions please.
Thanks!
- Patrick
4x4 EVC
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I'm really not sure what I'm more sad about, your gloating or that you have to spend ANY time between Dallas and El Paso - god, what a shit corridor.And yes, I'm the asshole that drives by the line of Teslas sitting on their chargers 1/2 way between Dallas and El Paso in my service truck that I just filled up in 5min shaking my head and laughing.
If it's the latter, I'm right there with ya', losers!
I get paid well to take those rides so no worries. 
Swayzeexpress
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Is this close to accurate? 4 minutes from a little Honda will get about a mile? Better than I thought
rockmup
El Hefe
4x4 EVC
Have you ever done any wheeling ? Rock crawling, hill climbs in the South, dune running ?
You're going to need real world experience with this thing before you can sell more than a couple.
What happens when you need to do a recovery and are using your winch ? What happens when people install electric steering or electric parking brakes, ARB coolers or sound systems and on and on.
FWIW, I love seeing this kind of thing. There was a guy on the old site (I think) that built an electric sammy
Have you ever done any wheeling ? Rock crawling, hill climbs in the South, dune running ?
You're going to need real world experience with this thing before you can sell more than a couple.
What happens when you need to do a recovery and are using your winch ? What happens when people install electric steering or electric parking brakes, ARB coolers or sound systems and on and on.
FWIW, I love seeing this kind of thing. There was a guy on the old site (I think) that built an electric sammy
4x4 EVC
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It's not 'Fast charging' like a Tesla Fast Charge station but, all EV's take the first ~80% of a charge faster then the last 20% - mostly due to battery chemistry. Also, it depends on the size of the Honda or other little genny.
In general, getting a few miles out of a charge is pretty easy. I was using the tank size of about a gallon as a reference.
The math is pretty simple: 1 gallon of gas is the equivalent of 33.7kWh of energy. My Jeeps are running around 2.4 mi/kWh so given the inefficacy of using a small generator, I rounded DOWN to about 1.5mi/kWh. Somewhere between 3 and 5 miles of charge in about 20 min.
Much like running out of gas, I'm assuming you don't return to the trail after adding gas but are heading back to camp or your trailer, same assumption here. You ran out on the way back or somesuch.
It's not like you can't see the amount of juice you're using when you're driving, it's all right there on the screen. Here's my first screen snap from last night's little drive:
I'm using the AEM CD7 (yes, very confusingly similar name to CJ7..)
The SOC I point out in the screen is the 'gas gauge' .
What I don't have on this one yet is the range calculation estimate. It's not necessary but I want to see if I can dial it in to give the driver some indication or Max / Min range distance. That's obviously made more complicated by the vehicle NOT knowing what terrain the Jeep is in or about to get into.
I'm getting into the weeds, sorry, hope I answered your question.
- Patrick
4x4 EVC
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No, personaly, I was never into the idea of crossing a field of rocks because the rocks were there, I was always the guy that wanted to go from Here to There and be damned the trail ahead of me. That kind of thing. No dunes in a Jeep, only a Dunn Buggy a thousand years ago.
I think hill climbs would be a cool way to test the Jeep but not my off roading thing either. I like the long, slow, complicated trails.
BUT, just like with all things Jeep, just because I don't enjoy those, doesn't mean others will hesisate to beat the crap out of whatever I build until it works or explodes or a little of both.
As for you accessary list, great list! Let's do it:
- Winches - they're all electric and will plug right into the 12v battery, like normal. We have had two conversations with winch manufactures, both want the exact same thing - a way to sell more winches what have smaller motors and higher voltages. They both want an exclusive for a specific 'winch plug' so that it becomes a plug in event rather then a complicated wiring event to the 12v. They both want a 48v tap. I was thinking an Anderson Connector or a beefy TE connector. We'll see. BUT, the idea of more volts to certain beloved Jeep add-ons is on the table.
- Electric Steering comes in all but the cheapest Kit - it's one of those things you can do yourself, I'm using the amazing Volvo P/S unit. It's completely self contained in one unit, looks like this:
Cost about $300 (or less). The Hi and Lo custom hoses will probably run about $180. Connects right up to the stock knuckle. Guess who makes it: Fo Mo Co...
- Electric Parking Brake (EPB) - I'll be using the Wilwood EPB kit as an option. Have you guys seen this, so simple, it looks like this:
Who doesn't love Wilwood!
- ARB Cooler - never heard of that one before, VERY neat and, pretty damn efficient - it's says it use 0.9kWh so you could keep it plugged in to the Jeep for 41 days before killing your Pack so, a weekend trip would have a negligible affect on the SOC. AND, it's already rated for 12/24 volts making it easier and faster to cool.
I just did a quick tour of all the electric coolers out there - WOW, so many! The nifty thing is, they all brag about how efficient they are which is GREAT news for and EV application.
- Sound System - same thing, almost negligible effect on the pack. Turn it up!
The thing is, electricity to electricity is mostly very effecient. It's the messy fuel / electricity to energy that takes the largest efficiency hit. Energy to work, 'work' being the output of energy like a motor to a wheel, is the most inefficient. On the Jeep for example, you can have a 98% efficient motor like the Hyper9HV but you loos about 30% in gearing.
By comparison, and ICE motor looses about 30% of it's work in heat loss, nature of the beast.
I know it seems like I'm jaded by it but, trust me, I'm as enamored by all this as much as you are - every single time I get in and drive away, I marvel at it all.
- Patrick
rockmup
El Hefe
You are jaded and theres nothing wrong with that.
My questions weren't about their cost or if they would work, of course they will but, about the draw on the system and how that affects the estimated range
You're wrong about todays sound systems, they also play them the entire day. Also, don't forget lights
Theres a thread in here about using Prius calipers for parking brakes and several other good threads on using MC, electric rack and pinions etc
Point is, I think your calc's work great on the bench, in the real world I'd bet its considerably different. Until you've actually been involved in real wheeling, you can't understand or imagine what really goes on.
Not to bag on you because I'm not but your hill climb video is a great example. You thought it was quite something to do and I'm over here thinking I could do that in a honda accord.
**Anderson connectors all day long. That way a guy can hook up his trail welder easily.
My questions weren't about their cost or if they would work, of course they will but, about the draw on the system and how that affects the estimated range
You're wrong about todays sound systems, they also play them the entire day. Also, don't forget lights
Theres a thread in here about using Prius calipers for parking brakes and several other good threads on using MC, electric rack and pinions etc
Point is, I think your calc's work great on the bench, in the real world I'd bet its considerably different. Until you've actually been involved in real wheeling, you can't understand or imagine what really goes on.
Not to bag on you because I'm not but your hill climb video is a great example. You thought it was quite something to do and I'm over here thinking I could do that in a honda accord.
**Anderson connectors all day long. That way a guy can hook up his trail welder easily.
4x4 EVC
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I thought I listed some of the kW draws for the cooler, but I take your point. We need a better ratting system to range. The 'one MPGe ratting fits all driving conditions' is total bs and doesn't help anyone other the the Jeep sales guys pushing the 4xe's out the door. Something to think about for another day....
As for the quick video, it was just that, a turn off in my neighborhood, that might be a total of 3 miles long in semi-private backyards. That hills was the only one out there, at the top of that hill, it's someone's backyard....
Here's an even shorter video, again, I was only interested in illustrating the torque from standing still, nothing else:
Completely agree, more off-road testing is always needed.
So, you like those Anderson connectors - they are everywhere, cool, thanks for that. The weld thing has been brought up a couple times.
- Patrick
Hook it to a pulling sled if you want to show us instant torque.
I bet a bunch of us here just watched that hill video and said in our heads that it would make a great jump if you hit it with some decent speed.
If you don't rock crawl, what are you considering long technical trails?
I bet a bunch of us here just watched that hill video and said in our heads that it would make a great jump if you hit it with some decent speed.
If you don't rock crawl, what are you considering long technical trails?
4x4 EVC
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That's interesting, hadn't thought of a sled test.Hook it to a pulling sled if you want to show us instant torque.
I bet a bunch of us here just watched that hill video and said in our heads that it would make a great jump if you hit it with some decent speed.
If you don't rock crawl, what are you considering long technical trails?
I was thinking of doing that little 'jump' also but like I said, I was only with my son at dusk, spur of the moment thing. MORE needed, much MORE needed.
Long wooded trails are my very favorite - anywhere near the Sierra Nevada's almost all of northern GA, JT to Cottonwood (and back), stuff like that.
I really want to find the time for a long Colorado trip to do some of thier renowned long trails. It's not that I don't rock crawl, it's that I don't intentionally rock crawl.
I know I've said this before but, remember, I'm not building a kit for you or someone else to replace their rig, I'm attempting to offer a repower kit that you guys can use as a platform in the coming decades to build whatever you want.
My goal is to offer the most affordable EV conversion for Jeeps with the least amount of structural changes to the vehicle.
Given the amount of crazy cash people are throwing down on restomod Broncos and Volvos and VW bugs and crap like that, I could easily offer a $75,000 - $80,000 version and do one at a time forever, being that the pool of Jeep owners is so large. BUT, I think, I think it would be wiser to offer the kits as cheap as I can and let the market expand around that rather then make it a rich man's game only.
Stuff...
Honestly I think you would be better off with plan B. No matter how you slice it $50k all in for a kit is a rich man's game.
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